Djokovic 2007 could have beaten Djokovic 2011 and 2015 at the US Open

NatF

Bionic Poster
Djokovic was roughly the same at the USO from 2007-2010 + years like 2013. In 2011/2015 he separated himself with grit and a higher gear (more so in 2011 than 2015).

But yeah 2007 Djokovic was no joke, his biggest flaw was clustering a bunch of UE's together at the end of the first set to lose it.
 
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Deleted member 742196

Guest
Yes, what are we disagreeing about?

You know. There are many times I end up asking Tennis Hands what it is are we are disagreeing about.

Exactly what you said.

Across some specific people we just disagree to agree.
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
@Lew II and @abmk ~ a match made in heaven.

Early nomination for best 2019 doubles team.


*assuming they don’t kill each other.

you must be kidding.
I could trash his silly arguments at about 10% of my capacity.

I prefer to make my posts closer to reality, but if I want, I could easily turn the tables on him with reverse cherry-picking . This without even having to look up 100s of stats like he has to (I can do it just from memory). See my last few posts for what I can do if I really wanted to do this.
:-D
 
D

Deleted member 742196

Guest
you must be kidding.
I could trash his silly arguments at about 10% of my capacity.

I prefer to make my posts closer to reality, but if I want, I could easily turn the tables on him with reverse cherry-picking . This without even having to look up 100s of stats like he has to (I can do it just from memory). See my last few posts for what I can do if I really wanted to do this.
:-D

If I remember it correct, Lew 1.0 called you a tumour just before his exit.

The thing is for someone like me that pretty much watches tennis and enjoys data on how players go about playing their tennis, the back and forth between you guys can be fascinating.
 

mr tonyz

Professional
When you cannot trash a players legacy in terms of his accomplishments as is the case with Fed.

Just constantly Lew , uhm i mean 'spew' stats revolving around H2H's vs 2 younger ATG's .

Imagine if Nadal & Djoker wern't around? Fed was a weak era chump with no rivals .

Imagine if Federer stomped on both Nadal & Djoko? Fed was a weak era chump with no rivals.

Is there any possibility that Fed could win in any conceivable hypothetical scenario??
 

Sport

G.O.A.T.
All it means is that Federer was good enough to reach important far more often, even when well past his prime. :)
Of course the weaker fields in 2015, early 2016 also helped.

oh and a YEC semi is just as important as a Masters final btw points-wise. Both give 400 points.
Enough with the prime/non-prime excuses. Federer not only started to lose against Djokovic in 2015 at age 34.

At the US Open 2010 and Australian Open 2011 Fededer was only 29 years old, yet he lost to Djokovic. So you can't bring the age excuse. Cristiano Ronaldo, Messi, Michael Jordan, LeBron James, Stephen Curry... the greatest sportsmen of all time are obviously at his prime at age 29 and keep dominating their sport at that age.

Time to admit prime Federer is not unbeatable. @Lew has never said that prime Djokovic is unbeatable.

No one is unbeatable, even if playing at his best.
 

Lew II

G.O.A.T.
When you cannot trash a players legacy in terms of his accomplishments as is the case with Fed.

Just constantly Lew , uhm i mean 'spew' stats revolving around H2H's vs 2 younger ATG's .

Imagine if Nadal & Djoker wern't around? Fed was a weak era chump with no rivals .

Imagine if Federer stomped on both Nadal & Djoko? Fed was a weak era chump with no rivals.

Is there any possibility that Fed could win in any conceivable hypothetical scenario??

If Nadal and Djoko dominated the field as they did, they wouldn't have been weak opponents. In fact I have high consideration of Murray, despite he was dominated by the Big3.
 

Sport

G.O.A.T.
Djokovic was roughly the same at the USO from 2007-2010 + years like 2013. In 2011/2015 he separated himself with grit and a higher gear (more so in 2011 than 2015).

But yeah 2007 Djokovic was no joke, his biggest flaw was clustering a bunch of UE's together at the end of the first set to lose it.
Hahaha peak 26 years old Djokovic of 2013 was not the same, yeah sure. 2013 would have been one of Djokovic's best years if not for Nadal. In effect, Djokovic would have won 3 Grand Slams plus the ATP finals in 2013, but Nadal stopped him both at Roland Garros and the US Open.

So according to your simplistic logic, if a player wins 3 Grand Slams in a year he is at his peak, if he wins 1 Grand Slam in a year he is non-peak. According to that logic Nadal was non-peak in 2011. But you will follow a double standard of course.

Oh yes, let's rest merit to every single Nadal's victory over Djokovic at the US Open.

Nadal defeats Djokovic in 2 US Open matches = oh no, Djokovic was not at his best.

Djokovic defeats Nadal in 1 US Open match = oh yes, Nadal was at his best.

What a double standard.

In 2010, Djokovic defeated 29 years old prime and healthy Federer so he was obviously playing greater than in 2007.

To say that 2013 Djokovic was not at his peak is like saying that 2011 Nadal was not at his peak. Just an excuse.

Just like Nadal would have won 3 Grand Slams in 2011 if not for Djokovic, Djokovic would have won 3 Grand Slams in 2013 if not for Nadal.
 

mr tonyz

Professional
If Nadal and Djoko dominated the field as they did, they wouldn't have been weak opponents. In fact I have high consideration of Murray, despite he was dominated by the Big3.

Yes because we know how much dominating the field means to you ;)

Edit. You still didn't answer if there was any hypothetical in which Fed could not be frowned upon?
 

Soothsayer

New User
As you can see in post #13 I was not referring to "peak years".

Anyway yes, Djoko can play very good and lose, as he did some times in 2007-08, and as he did many times in 2012-14. It happens with opponents like Federer.

I'm talking about this post. This thread is about 2007. You said peak Djokovic can lose to peak Federer. So, Djokovic was peak in 2007 according to you.

Peak Djokovic can lose to peak Federer, it's not a surprise.
 

Lew II

G.O.A.T.
Either he was peak all the time or not at all. Double standards cannot apply.

Djokovic played some great matches in 2007-10, in 2012-14, despite not being dominant. Same with Federer after 2007.

IMO when players reach with ease important matches (big tournaments finals and semi) they're playing their best tennis.
 
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Deleted member 307496

Guest
Djokovic played some great matches in 2007-10, in 2012-14, despite not being dominant.

IMO when players reach important matches (big tournaments finals and semi) with ease they're playing their best tennis.
So Djokovic wasn't at his best at the 2012 Australian Open then? :-D:laughing: He was pushed several times that tournament by guys like Murray and old man waddling "midget" Hewitt. :laughing::-D

 

Lew II

G.O.A.T.
So Djokovic wasn't at his best at the 2012 Australian Open then? :-D:laughing: He was pushed several times that tournament by guys like Murray and old man waddling "midget" Hewitt. :laughing::-D
Murray is good.

In the other matches he lost 1 set.

And there are other results in that period to prove Djokovic's good form.
 
D

Deleted member 307496

Guest
Murray is good.

In the other matches he lost 1 set.

And there are other results in that period to prove Djokovic's good form.
Why was he nearly beaten by weak era midget 5'4" Hewitt at the Olympics then?!?!?! He was ranked outside the top 200 at the time! No excuses.

 

Soothsayer

New User
He was peak in 1 slam. UO.

So now you're just picking and choosing when the guy is peak. In this case one can say any time Fed played Joker he was not peak. Even if it's in a final because you could play peak to get to the final, but not peak in the final.
 

Lew II

G.O.A.T.
So now you're just picking and choosing when the guy is peak. In this case one can say any time Fed played Joker he was not peak. Even if it's in a final because you could play peak to get to the final, but not peak in the final.

With my upcoming post you will have it more clear about my view.
 

Lew II

G.O.A.T.
Slam finals:

Djokovic-Federer 3-1
Nadal-Federer 6-3 (2-3 outside clay)
Nadal-Djokovic 4-3 (2-3 outside clay)

Slam semifinals:

Djokovic-Federer 6-4
Nadal-Federer 3-0 (2-0 outside clay)
Nadal-Djokovic 3-1 (1-1 outside clay)

YEC finals:

Djokovic-Federer 2-0
Federer-Nadal 1-0
Djokovic-Nadal 1-0

Masters finals:

Djokovic-Federer 5-3
Nadal-Federer 7-5 (outside clay 0-3)
Djokovic-Nadal 7-5 (outside clay 1-3)

YEC semifinals:

Federer-Djokovic 1-0
Federer-Nadal 2-1
Djokovic-Nadal 1-0

Olympics semifinals:

Djokovic-Federer 0-0
Federer-Nadal 0-0
Nadal-Djokovic 1-0 (hard)

Total:

Djokovic-Federer 16-9
Nadal-Federer 17-11 (outside clay 5-9)
Nadal-Djokovic 13-13 (outside clay 5-9)
 

Lew II

G.O.A.T.
Slam finals:

Djokovic-Federer 3-1
Nadal-Federer 6-3 (2-3 outside clay)
Nadal-Djokovic 4-3 (2-3 outside clay)

Slam semifinals:

Djokovic-Federer 6-4
Nadal-Federer 3-0 (2-0 outside clay)
Nadal-Djokovic 3-1 (1-1 outside clay)

YEC finals:

Djokovic-Federer 2-0
Federer-Nadal 1-0
Djokovic-Nadal 1-0

Masters finals:

Djokovic-Federer 5-3
Nadal-Federer 7-5 (outside clay 0-3)
Djokovic-Nadal 7-5 (outside clay 1-3)

YEC semifinals:

Federer-Djokovic 1-0
Federer-Nadal 2-1
Djokovic-Nadal 1-0

Olympics semifinals:

Djokovic-Federer 0-0
Federer-Nadal 0-0
Nadal-Djokovic 1-0 (hard)

Total:

Djokovic-Federer 16-9
Nadal-Federer 17-11 (outside clay 5-9)
Nadal-Djokovic 13-13 (outside clay 5-9)

IMO this means peak Djoko beats peak Federer. Fed and Djoko both beat Nadal off clay. On clay Nadal owns Federer and beats Djokovic.
 
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Lew II

G.O.A.T.
Going by the match I posted 2005 Hewitt would have won.

Hewitt is great, in 15 slam matches against top-20 ranked Big3 he never won more than 1 set.

If this is not a proof that peak Hewitt destroys them I don't know what it is. :p
 
D

Deleted member 307496

Guest
Hewitt is great, in 15 slam matches against top-20 ranked Big3 he never won more than 1 set.

If this is not a proof that peak Hewitt destroys them I don't know what it is. :p
Why did Djokovic struggle with a barely walking Hewitt then? Is Djokovic not that great?!?!?!
 

KINGROGER

G.O.A.T.
Djokovic played some great matches in 2007-10, in 2012-14, despite not being dominant. Same with Federer after 2007.

IMO when players reach with ease important matches (big tournaments finals and semi) they're playing their best tennis.
I’d agree if it weren’t for the fact that Fed’s so called peak form in 2014-2016 was exposed everytime he met Djokovic over BO5.
 

rueandre

New User
2007 Djokovic would be lucky to get a set. He in fact might have been much closer to getting atleast 1 set in the actual final vs Roger than he would have been vs either 2011 or 2015 Djokovic.
 

NatF

Bionic Poster
Hewitt is great, in 15 slam matches against top-20 ranked Big3 he never won more than 1 set.

If this is not a proof that peak Hewitt destroys them I don't know what it is. :p

Djokovic and Nadal are 3-3 with Hewitt in slams when Hewitt was top 20.
 

NatF

Bionic Poster
Djokovic/Nadal/Murray and Hewitt never met at their peaks.

I think Hewitt's form after 2005 is underrated, he was still young (25 yo), but I won't say it was peak.

There are other things that make me think Hewitt overachieved, I talked about them here: https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/lleyton-hewitt-is-an-atg.631897/

Hewitt was injured a lot after 2005, he had a bunch of surgeries - including two in 2005. He wasn't the same after. The fact he could still compete well at times is a credit to him.

You could argue he over acheived in 2001-2002 (I wouldn't but that's besides the point) but then I'd say he underachieved in 2004-2005 with some tough slam draws e.g. being in the same half as Federer over and over, also Federer being a terrible match up for him compared to a lot of past ATG's and sharing his best slams. Post 2005 I think it's quite unfair to judge him for not bouncing back from his injuries.
 
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BrokenGears

Guest
Nole's performance at the US Open in those 3 years drew similar results statistically, the only difference is that he lost to the goat Federer in 2007 final. He was unlucky in 2007, but I think his high level of playing could have beaten Nole 2011/2015 given an opportunity.

Djokovic by the numbers at the US Open:
Ace percentage:
2007 8.9%
2011 5.6%
2015 7.1%

First serve %
2007 60.8%
2011 64%
2015 63.5%

First serve point won
2007 76.9%
2011 72.7%
2015 74.9%

Second serve point won
2007 56.8%
2011 54%
2015 61.3%

Hold percentage
2007 89.3%
2011 83.2%
2015 89.2%

Service point won
2007 69%
2011 66%
2015 69.9%

Return point won
2007 40.2%
2011 48.5%
2015 43.8%



Despite Federer put a dent on Nole's spectacular stats at the 2007 USO final, his overall numbers remains similar to 2011 and 2015.

LMAO 8 point increase in return stats in 2011 USO LMAO

This is the kind of BS you put in to try to troll? Nice try
 
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BrokenGears

Guest
you must be kidding.
I could trash his silly arguments at about 10% of my capacity.

I prefer to make my posts closer to reality, but if I want, I could easily turn the tables on him with reverse cherry-picking . This without even having to look up 100s of stats like he has to (I can do it just from memory). See my last few posts for what I can do if I really wanted to do this.
:-D

Nope. LMAO. You have zero perspective and cherrpick as much as Lew does
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
Nope. LMAO. You have zero perspective and cherrpick as much as Lew does

oh please, just because you are bitter at being proven wrong multiple times, you want to go the delusional route ? :)
Still smarting over the lesson of Del potro RG 09 vs Stan RG 15 ? Get over it.
 
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Why did he struggle with Simon, Anderson, Bellucci, etc.?
Djokovic never struggled with Hewitt. In fact he owned Hewitt straight from the kindergarten. Maybe he struggled in the world of Dumbratha, but in the real world no he never did.
He struggled more against Ferrer similar age, similar type of player, but against Hewitt,nope...
 
D

Deleted member 307496

Guest
And I provided proof, but because Vamos Fanboy is unable to read or decipher anything besides weak era it went over his head. :laughing:

Guy has to be both the most stupid and horrific poster on the board. Two distinctions.. Working hard.
 
B

BrokenGears

Guest
oh please, just because you are bitter at being proven wrong multiple times, you want to go the delusional route ? :)
Still smarting over the lesson of Del potro RG 09 vs Stan RG 15 ? Get over it.

Why would I be? I saw your cherry picked stats on that scenario lmao
 

Lew II

G.O.A.T.
Prize money:

Ferrer $31,306,836
Hewitt $20,890,000

Ferrer is the better man because he earned more with the game. :p
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
Why would I be? I saw your cherry picked stats on that scenario lmao

Didn't realize you were that lazy to not even look up the links/references provided and understand.
and you call that cherry picking ?

I also explained why what I said initially was enough if you actually bothered to look at the link+reference.
Even after getting schooled big time, you are going on about cherry-picking ?


Delpo RG 09 ~ Stan RG 15.
You got schooled over it big time.
Accept it. Move on.

If you still go on accusing me of cherrypicking when I haven't been doing that, you are just proving yourself to be in massively sh*tty guy territory.
Don't expect me to hold back in responses if you do so. This is the final time I'm telling you this.
 

mike danny

Bionic Poster
Enough with the prime/non-prime excuses. Federer not only started to lose against Djokovic in 2015 at age 34.

At the US Open 2010 and Australian Open 2011 Fededer was only 29 years old, yet he lost to Djokovic. So you can't bring the age excuse. Cristiano Ronaldo, Messi, Michael Jordan, LeBron James, Stephen Curry... the greatest sportsmen of all time are obviously at his prime at age 29 and keep dominating their sport at that age.

Time to admit prime Federer is not unbeatable. @Lew has never said that prime Djokovic is unbeatable.

No one is unbeatable, even if playing at his best.
Federer had never lost 4 straight slam matches to Djokovic before 2014-2016. so yeah, age has everything to do with it.
 
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