Djokovic 2015-16 form the best we've ever seen?

KingKyrgios

Professional
Well, not quite. During 2015-16, I seem to recall he got stopped by Wawrinka (2015 RG), Murray (2015 Montreal), Vesely (2016 Monte Carlo), Murray (2016 Rome), Querrey (2016 Wimbledon), Del Potro (2016 Rio Olympics), Wawrinka (2016 US Open), Bautista Agut (2016 Shanghai), Cilic (2016 Paris-Bercy), Murray (2016 WTF).

Didn't happen very often admittedly, but it did happen. :cool:
I was thinking more along the lines of the NCYGS period ;)
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
He wasn't threatened in 15 because he didn't play anyone nearly as good as Fed was in 2011. It's that simple. It's a bit much to call the first set of the 2011 semi rubbish and then turn around and say 2015 was a better level when most of the final was around that level or even below and relied on Fed to tighten up. 2015 he did the bare minimum to win and got away with it due to a weaker draw, that doesn't make it better than 2011. His level didn't impress me at any point in the 2015 USO, whereas it did in 2011.
Firstly, the 1st set vs fed was actually very good from djoko. See my post with the stats. He played as well as he could vs fed playing at that level.

His level did dip in the 2nd, but Federer raised his level as well.

As far as impressing goes, tbh djoko was impressive in the SF vs cilic. He was seeing the ball like a football and hitting it very cleanly.
Granted Cilic was injured, but djoko was ruthless to give him only 3 games.

As far as the final goes, the way he countered federer's variety (slice+net play+sabr) was impressive, but its obvious his level was not as good as it was in 11. He did almost everything better in the 11 semi, except countering federer's slice - serve, return, ground game. He only served well when under pressure in the 15 final, he served well almost throughout in the 11 semi.
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
I was talking about level of play. I think Federer had a bit higher one than Djokovic at the events that suited him the most. But obviously Djokovic's late 2014-mid 2016 is unmatched dominance and he never had any big issue with any particular player. That's a major plus for him.
I don't see how djoko's late 2014-2016 is unmatched.not even remotely true.

See my post above in this thread :

Federer from halle 04/start of 2005/Hamburg 05/halle 05 to Dubai 07 was clearly more dominant( in terms of win loss %s and at the slams)

You can argue which was better, but it sure as hell wasn't unmatched.
 
I disagree with this. He only lost one set that tournament which was his first match against Fratengelo. He beat Tsonga in two sets 7-6 7-6, who played at a really high level and served lights out, beat Nadal in two sets and just destroyed Raonic in the final in a clinic in returning and shot making from start to finish. So no IW did not signal that his form was dropping and if anything showed that his form was still at a very high level. Even in Miami, he did not even lose a set and destroyed Nishikori in the final so clearly there was nothing wrong with his game at the time. After this we did see a few chinks in the armor with his loss to Vesely at Monte Carlo, but that could be contributed to fatigue more than anything. He did lose to Murray in Rome but again he had played much longer and tougher matches against Nishikori and Nadal whereas Murray cruised through in a cushy draw so he was a bit fatigued. Fast forward to RG, and he played amazing tennis in the last 3 matches to win the title. So his form really only dropped significantly after RG as far as I'm concerned.
Loss of form doesn't normally happen overnight. Consistency is the first thing to go. I think you may be rushing to your man's defence, but really I am not criticising him, just stating the progression of his troubles as I have certainly seen it happen on court. Djokovic began to put up mediocre performances more often than in the entire 2015, where he had few relatively weak matches besides struggling through Canada-Cincy. I don't see how you can ignore dropping a 2-6 set to a qualifier, or double faulting 10-odd times against Thiem. And then he'd play a strong match when required, such as the IW semi and final. It's also no coincidence Nadal began to threaten him again and famously had set points in 3 of the 4 sets they played in that period, even if Djokovic still managed to win in straights both times.

For instance, Miami is actually a good example of unnecessary struggling against everyone but Edmund and Berdych. Yes, Djok still won in straights - first, because he was clutch, and second, because, let's be honest, the folks he played didn't happen to show anything special, and the final was quite an UE fest. I'm not intending to disparage the victory - Djokovic won many Miamis against strong competitors and is rightfully the king of that tournament - but it's a necessary observation when assessing and discussing the level of play.

Rome is another example - it's true Murray had a soft draw and Djokovic had a tough one, but peak Djokovic would have run through it anyway (Nadal still not leagues better than his 2015 version). Instead, he struggled from the first match and was then easily beaten in the final.

But then, indeed, Djokovic from the last three rounds of RG appeared to rediscover peak level (bar the first set of the final, which can be attributed to nerves), so his subsequent regression to spiralling down was highly surprising nonetheless. I thought he'd at least go Fed 07 - beatable in masters, but keeping a high and clutch level in the majors (and YEC).

In the end, of course it's not a final argument without properly sitting down to analyse the footage, but, with the expection of Madrid where he was great from start to finish, Djokovic clearly looked shaky to me at the time, relative to his peak self. He was still able to up the ante for the big matches when necessary, but it couldn't last forever with those slow starts. Either the slow starts would go, or the level-upping ability. So it ended up being the latter.
 

The Fedfather

Hall of Fame
2015-2016 is a long stretch of time and despite Djokovic's incredible results during that period, his overall form actually didn't strike me as something very special. Granted, in some matches Novak was downright unplayable. But then far too often he was playing just well enough to get the job done, which most of the time wasn't all that impressive. That's where competition comes into play. Djokovic's opponents in 2015 and the start of 2016 rarely played well enough to pose a significant threat to him, and Novak understandably just didn't care to bring his A game when he could get away with B or even C level.

Now 2011 is a different story. Sure, it wasn't a very prolonged period of dominance and his level took a dive by the end of the year, but those first 9 months, the 41-match winning streak including straight-sets victories over prime Nadal in the Madrid and Rome finals... He took the tour by storm! I honestly don't see how that's less impressive than what he showed in 2015-16.
 

TheAssassin

Legend
I don't see how djoko's late 2014-2016 is unmatched.not even remotely true.

See my post above in this thread :

Federer from halle 04/start of 2005/Hamburg 05/halle 05 to Dubai 07 was clearly more dominant( in terms of win loss %s and at the slams)

You can argue which was better, but it sure as hell wasn't unmatched.
I read the post.

Obviously Federer's dominance was longer so he had better stretches at Majors (6/7, 8/10, 11/16, we know them well). 4 multi-Slam seasons in a row basically seals it, no need to even analyze any further. I don't think anyone is going to dispute that.

But what I was talking about here and didn't make it clear to be fair was that Djokovic had the best dominance in a stretch of 6 Slams/18-ish months. Not only does he have 5/6 and a sick win-loss number, he also won all four Majors and held them all at one point. YEC dominance and tons of Masters as well. Record number of points. Might sound like a bit of cherry picking, but it sure was a historic run since he ruled on all surfaces and conditions at one point. Not even Federer can say that. Nadal's slump probably played a part in this but here it's not about discussing competition.

Correction on some of your numbers:
Fed was 35-1 in 2005 from Halle until YEC, you left out one DC win.
Nole was 44-3 in 2016 until RG, you left out two DC wins and added two losses out of nowhere.
 
D

Deleted member 716271

Guest
I read the post.

Obviously Federer's dominance was longer so he had better stretches at Majors (6/7, 8/10, 11/16, we know them well). 4 multi-Slam seasons in a row basically seals it, no need to even analyze any further. I don't think anyone is going to dispute that.

But what I was talking about here and didn't make it clear to be fair was that Djokovic had the best dominance in a stretch of 6 Slams/18-ish months. Not only does he have 5/6 and a sick win-loss number, he also won all four Majors and held them all at one point. YEC dominance and tons of Masters as well. Record number of points. Might sound like a bit of cherry picking, but it sure was a historic run since he ruled on all surfaces and conditions at one point. Not even Federer can say that. Nadal's slump probably played a part in this but here it's not about discussing competition.

Correction on some of your numbers:
Fed was 35-1 in 2005 from Halle until YEC, you left out one DC win.
Nole was 44-3 in 2016 until RG, you left out two DC wins and added two losses out of nowhere.
This is the key point imo. Well put.
 
Now 2011 is a different story. Sure, it wasn't a very prolonged period of dominance and his level took a dive by the end of the year, but those first 9 months, the 41-match winning streak including straight-sets victories over prime Nadal in the Madrid and Rome finals... He took the tour by storm! I honestly don't see how that's less impressive than what he showed in 2015-16.
The bolded is kind of cause and effect, I think. Djokovic actually tried to play the entire season at peak, with no sizeable dips, something nobody else could ever do. (not counting ancient stories like Tilden and before, if anyone wishes to be pedantic) An extremely admirable ambition - unfortunately, it was too much, players are still too human.
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
I read the post.

Obviously Federer's dominance was longer so he had better stretches at Majors (6/7, 8/10, 11/16, we know them well). 4 multi-Slam seasons in a row basically seals it, no need to even analyze any further. I don't think anyone is going to dispute that.

But what I was talking about here and didn't make it clear to be fair was that Djokovic had the best dominance in a stretch of 6 Slams/18-ish months. Not only does he have 5/6 and a sick win-loss number, he also won all four Majors and held them all at one point. YEC dominance and tons of Masters as well. Record number of points. Might sound like a bit of cherry picking, but it sure was a historic run since he ruled on all surfaces and conditions at one point. Not even Federer can say that. Nadal's slump probably played a part in this but here it's not about discussing competition.

Correction on some of your numbers:
Fed was 35-1 in 2005 from Halle until YEC, you left out one DC win.
Nole was 44-3 in 2016 until RG, you left out two DC wins and added two losses out of nowhere.
you said unmatched dominance, so I included majors ( 6 of 7 for federer from halle 05 to dubai 07) which is better than djoko's 5 of 6 ; win loss % is also better for federer.

yeah, if you want to go with the bolded part, I agree, Djoko's run was unique in that way.

You are right about those corrections..
Corrected.

In terms of win loss dominance though, Djoko was 160-10 in that period.

for 10 losses for federer, you'd have to go from Oly 04 to dubai 07.

Federer was
186-9 from 2005-dubai 07.
17-1 from Olympics 04 to Year end in 2004.

203-10 .

That's 43 more wins for the same # of losses. That's substantial.

Its not just about the majors.
 

swordtennis

Legend
No, it didn't. You do know he won the Sunshine Double agaIn that year, right? Boy, everybody would wish for their form to fall apart like that :eek:
Yes it did. I remember @-NN- replying to me during the spring hard court started saying Djokovic can not escape much longer playing like this as his service game started falling apart and he was scraping out the wins. He was not dominating like he did starting in the Spring HC.
 

swordtennis

Legend
Yeah I remember Vajda words after RG16 like "this was his last chance to win it.."
I'm all for 2 Wimb, but he needs his old serve back, which will be very tough
Hopefully Agassi can help him be more aggressive and end points sooner even if the becker serve never comes back.
 

Noelan

Legend
Hopefully Agassi can help him be more aggressive and end points sooner even if the becker serve never comes back.
Literally only 2% more on second serve done wonders to his game in that period. He won 2 of his 3 W by playing first strike tennis, serve and second shot after serve (usually FH). I hope that he can flatten his FH in order to be more aggressive post injury.
 

Devin

Semi-Pro
I think I once said that 2011 Djokovic was the most fun version of Djokovic to watch (out of his prime years). I think he was more focused in 2011 as well and gave a higher level to early rounds. 2015 Djokovic relied on his serve and his overall greater tennis IQ in order to finish and win points in a broader array of ways, including better net play. 2015 Djokovic would probably be able to do better than 2011 Djokovic if both were trying to cruise through their early rounds instead of giving it their all, but in terms of peak level by both years, I think it's remarkably similar, with 2015 Djokovic having a slight edge due to the greater tennis IQ. We never saw Djokovic 2015 under immense pressure either IMO. I would've liked to see how 2015 Djokovic would've handled 2011 Nadal at Miami, where Nadal played really well and couldn't edge out 2011 Djokovic.
 

swordtennis

Legend
Literally only 2% more on second serve done wonders to his game in that period. He won 2 of his 3 W by playing first strike tennis, serve and second shot after serve (usually FH). I hope that he can flatten his FH in order to be more aggressive post injury.
Wow. I think he was working on things with agassi during Wimbledon. Looking forward to the AO. Maybe his new child will motivate him too.
 

swordtennis

Legend
I think I once said that 2011 Djokovic was the most fun version of Djokovic to watch (out of his prime years). I think he was more focused in 2011 as well and gave a higher level to early rounds. 2015 Djokovic relied on his serve and his overall greater tennis IQ in order to finish and win points in a broader array of ways, including better net play. 2015 Djokovic would probably be able to do better than 2011 Djokovic if both were trying to cruise through their early rounds instead of giving it their all, but in terms of peak level by both years, I think it's remarkably similar, with 2015 Djokovic having a slight edge due to the greater tennis IQ. We never saw Djokovic 2015 under immense pressure either IMO. I would've liked to see how 2015 Djokovic would've handled 2011 Nadal at Miami, where Nadal played really well and couldn't edge out 2011 Djokovic.
2015 Wimbledon, 2015 US Open and 2016 AO were extreme pressure. Federer and the 3rd man the crowd he basically had to play two opponents at once. Did you watch those matches? Fedal would have freaked out if those crowds were against them.
 

Devin

Semi-Pro
Don't forget that Federer didn't have huge crowd support in his prime, especially when he was playing people like Blake, Agassi, and Roddick.
 

deacsyoga

Banned
Don't forget that Federer didn't have huge crowd support in his prime, especially when he was playing people like Blake, Agassi, and Roddick.
The only place the crowd wasnt behind him vs Roddick and Blake is the U.S. Everywhere else they would be pro Federer by far against those. Agassi, less so.
 

BeatlesFan

Talk Tennis Guru
He was phenomenal (top 5 all time ) but no way the best.
Exactly. His fans seem to think his peak level is the greatest ever and won't entertain the prospect they might be wrong. Novak's form from January-May, 2011 was his highest level IMO and he handled Nadal on clay, which is no easy task, to put it mildly. But I put McEnroe's summer 1984 form above it and also put Fed's 2006 season above it (92-5).
 

swordtennis

Legend
You still keep making crap up and changing your tune with all the others during the weak era. We know who you are and you all can not keep face....
Your feddy boo bear is the highest level ever. now...

Exactly. His fans seem to think his peak level is the greatest ever and won't entertain the prospect they might be wrong. Novak's form from January-May, 2011 was his highest level IMO and he handled Nadal on clay, which is no easy task, to put it mildly. But I put McEnroe's summer 1984 form above it and also put Fed's 2006 season above it (92-5).
 

swordtennis

Legend
Give me a f*cking break fedal fans. Keep your cotton mouth hypocritical mouths out of my threads. You all are like a parasitic toxic sludge.
 

swordtennis

Legend
Fedal fans. ******** about no clean water while they were the ones ****ting in the water and blaming others for the ****ting.
 

BlueClayGOAT

Semi-Pro
Simple answer to this thread: NO.
No way was his 2015-16 level better than 2011.
2011 was epic- the depth of shot, the solidity, the movement- incredible.
 

swordtennis

Legend
Where are the rageaholic fedal fans? Where are the ragers? They used to be all over the place when Djokovic and Murray were winning... I need a dose of delusional rage directed towards me...Ahhh love the smell of napalm in the morning....
 

swordtennis

Legend
LMAO most of these "experts" usually never even watched Murrovic matches. They hated them so much but are the real experts saying 2015-2016 was not that great form.
Priceless.
 

swordtennis

Legend
Calm down :eek:
No. Fedal fans are bullies and like to take over every thread. They ruin every thread with their agendas to make fedal into super human invincibles that can never be beaten and their level can never be touched ever by any player. Every win is due to old age and injury or whatever. Djokovic 2015-2016 was the topic and it was a phenomenal level. Murray played at a great level as well.
There are zillion threads on fedal worship. they can Go ruin them. Thanks.
 

BlueClayGOAT

Semi-Pro
LMAO most of these "experts" usually never even watched Murrovic matches. They hated them so much but are the real experts saying 2015-2016 was not that great form.
Priceless.
2015-16 was obviously incredible from Nole, but the question is if it was the best ever. It wasn't. His own 2011 was much better, and Mac's 1984, Fed's 2005-06 are top contenders as well.
 

Noelan

Legend
You still keep making crap up and changing your tune with all the others during the weak era. We know who you are and you all can not keep face....
Your feddy boo bear is the highest level ever. now...
Exactly ,when called out as tennis ignorant but blind troll he/she never responses with proper argument.
Calm down :eek:
You're new here, you don't know what kind of bs that poster was writing back in the time when Novak played tennis which is subject of this thread.Was so mad, that weak era and popularity contest were on top of his priorities as "tennis fan"
We didn't forget as @Sword said
.
 

swordtennis

Legend
2015-16 was obviously incredible from Nole, but the question is if it was the best ever. It wasn't. His own 2011 was much better, and Mac's 1984, Fed's 2005-06 are top contenders as well.
How is 2011 "much" better? I can agree the competition was stronger with prime Nadal but other than that it was about the same. Djokovic was a more complete player in 2015. One player does not make for an entire season. Fedal fans tend to think everything hinges on fedal. Just checking...
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
2015 Wimbledon, 2015 US Open and 2016 AO were extreme pressure. Federer and the 3rd man the crowd he basically had to play two opponents at once. Did you watch those matches? Fedal would have freaked out if those crowds were against them.
enough of exaggeration.

Only 2015 USO was bad.
 

swordtennis

Legend
Exactly ,when called out as tennis ignorant but blind troll he/she never responses with proper argument.

You're new here, you don't know what kind of bs that poster was writing back in the time when Novak played tennis which is subject of this thread.Was so mad, that weak era and popularity contest were on top of his priorities as "tennis fan"
We didn't forget as @Sword said
.
Yeah I will be easy on Helena she seems to be a fair TTW member here. Balanced. I like her.
Beatless is one of the fab four. The dreaded fab four. I will not list those that shall remain nameless.
It is funny cuz now they are singing a different tune. :rolleyes:
 

swordtennis

Legend
enough of exaggeration.

Only 2015 USO was bad.
Give me a break. Just rewatched Wimbledon. They were exploding on UE's and everything. Djokovic celebration was a reply to the fans not federer. It was awesome to behold.The dour sour pusses in the stands. The hate was so thick you could cut it with a knife.
 

BlueClayGOAT

Semi-Pro
How is 2011 "much" better? I can agree the competition was stronger with prime Nadal but other than that it was about the same. Djokovic was a more complete player in 2015. One player does not make for an entire season. Fedal fans tend to think everything hinges on fedal. Just checking...
His level of play was much better in 2011. He hit the ball much better and his groundstrokes were much deeper. Not just Rafa, Federer too was much better in 2011 than in 2015.
 

Noelan

Legend
Yeah I will be easy on Helena she seems to be a fair TTW member here. Balanced. I like her.
Beatless is one of the fab four. The dreaded fab four. I will not list those that shall remain nameless.
It is funny cuz now they are singing a different tune. :rolleyes:
Yeah I'm easy too, she is prob fine poster and thorn between Fed/Djok, and she "likes'' Hitman:);)
That won't stop me of making fun of famous four and their agendas
 

swordtennis

Legend
His level of play was much better in 2011. He hit the ball much better and his groundstrokes were much deeper. Not just Rafa, Federer too was much better in 2011 than in 2015.
AO 2016 might have been the greatest consistent deep shot making in the history of the sport. Just saying. There was great stuff in each year.
 

swordtennis

Legend
I am here to give mad props to Djokovic. He deserves it and I am just the man to do it. I don't care he has had some great runs. Murray as well.
Time to give some love to Murrovic!
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
Give me a break. Just rewatched Wimbledon. They were exploding on UE's and everything. Djokovic celebration was a reply to the fans not federer. It was awesome to behold.The dour sour pusses in the stands. The hate was so thick you could cut it with a knife.
no.

Look at this in the end.


There's people getting up and more than enough polite applause for Djokovic.

If the crowd was so bad, we'd never hear the end of it from Djoko fans.
 
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