Djokovic 2015-16 form the best we've ever seen?

kevaninho

kevaninho

Hall of Fame
First let me say I wasn't Novaks biggest fan. Infact it took me till recently to appreciate the guy as a player and person. Ive always been a fan of Fedal and everything they made tennis be over the last 10+ years.
But just looking back , I remember watching Novak just slaughter everyone during that phenomenal dominating period, and I think I speak for a lot of people, in that he was never really appreciated as much as he should've been. It was always talk of weak era etc.
Now my question is this, and forget about being a non fan of him. But was his form as good as anything we've ever seen in tennis?
I just remember just being stunned at how unbeatable he seemed, and as big a fan of Nadal as I am, and as good as I think Federer was at his best, im not sure any version of any other player could've taken Novak out at his best.
Thoughts?
 
RF-18

RF-18

Talk Tennis Guru
This is relative. But definitely one of the best and I'd say 2015 version eclipses his own 2011. Much more complete player and more experience, and had an even better season.
 
TheAssassin

TheAssassin

Legend
At some surfaces/tournaments Djokovic showed his best form in 2011, some in 2015 and some in 2016. It's a mixture of all three years.

Compared to other players, I think Federer in mid 00s was better, but not by much. Small margins. He dominated longer, but Djokovic's late 2014-mid 2016 was probably the most dominant period of all.
 
SpinToWin

SpinToWin

Talk Tennis Guru
Stellar form no doubt, though he had more dips than in 2011. I seem to recall a few performances where he just nudged through due to his opponents not closing out. May be my selective memory though. Overall I'd say 2011 indeed was the better year.

As to best form ever? Who knows. You can't really prove or even assess that objectively. Suffice to say it was an amazing run, beyond that it's just opinion pieces and speculation.
 
TheAssassin

TheAssassin

Legend
SpinToWin said:
Stellar form no doubt, though he had more dips than in 2011. I seem to recall a few performances where he just nudged through due to his opponents not closing out. May be my selective memory though. Overall I'd say 2011 indeed was the better year.

As to best form ever? Who knows. You can't really prove or even assess that objectively. Suffice to say it was an amazing run, beyond that it's just opinion pieces and speculation.
Click to expand...
No dip in 2015 was bigger than the one he had during the post USO season in 2011.
 
SpinToWin

SpinToWin

Talk Tennis Guru
TheAssassin said:
No dip in 2015 was bigger than the one he had during the post USO season in 2011.
Click to expand...
Oh yeah, forgot about that...

Still, I'd say that when discussing best form (rather than year results or aggregate form throughout the year), 2011 is above 2015. 2015 saw great performances from him, but he seemed legitimately vulnerable in quite a few matches. 2011 until the USO was just insane stuff really. If Fed hadn't turned back the clock at the French Open, we'd not even be disputing which year historically was the best.

To me, he got the results in 2015 mainly because of his good play, but also for lack of players who could take advantage of his weaker moments. Meanwhile, 2011 to me was more of an issue of players not having a chance to begin with most of the time. I mean... Gosh, some of the matches he played that year were shocking, even though his opponents weren't playing badly.

Correct me if I'm wrong, the human memory is a highly fallible thing after all.
 
TheAssassin

TheAssassin

Legend
SpinToWin said:
Oh yeah, forgot about that...

Still, I'd say that when discussing best form (rather than year results or aggregate form throughout the year), 2011 is above 2015. 2015 saw great performances from him, but he seemed legitimately vulnerable in quite a few matches. 2011 until the USO was just insane stuff really. If Fed hadn't turned back the clock at the French Open, we'd not even be disputing which year historically was the best.

To me, he got the results in 2015 mainly because of his good play, but also for lack of players who could take advantage of his weaker moments. Meanwhile, 2011 to me was more of an issue of players not having a chance to begin with most of the time. I mean... Gosh, some of the matches he played that year were shocking, even though his opponents weren't playing badly.

Correct me if I'm wrong, the human memory is a highly fallible thing after all.
Click to expand...
Sure, in first 9 months of 2011 Novak was insane, against better opponents as well. At Slams I'd take his performances in 2011 at all of them except Wimbledon. The way he shut down both of this year's finalists back in 2015 was a sight to behold. :D He barely got over the line in some matches in 2015 when he played badly, though those happened at Masters.

Anyway, back to this Wimbledon final... :)
 
KingKyrgios

KingKyrgios

Professional
Seriously , Nole doesn't get enough credit for just how great he was during that period.
Weak era or not he was unstoppable and in some ways even better than in 2011 IMO.
 
ibbi

ibbi

G.O.A.T.
Look how relatively hard Federer fought him in those 2 slam finals during that period when he was at his best. Consider how far from his best Federer was in that period, and then tell me what serious argument there is that Djokovic at his best is going to beat Federer at his best?

Their best of 3 set record over this period you're talking about was even 3-3 to really seal the point. Federer couldn't live with him physically over 5 sets at his age, but over 3 was still more than a match for Djokovic at his most dominant.
 
acintya

acintya

Legend
no mather what people here think.a lot are just living in a fantasy and thinking Federer or Nadal are the goats. haha,you know you are wrong,you know everyone was afraid of djokovic when he was in his prime.
you never had this feeling that some player is immortal,like a robot. he was so good,and everything was so predictable that you started to hate tennis and the matches.he ruined everything.
im not a big djokovic fan,but i doubt someone would bet his head on some other player. v2011 or v2015 - it does not mather. not even the federer of 2017 would beat more slams than he back then.
really,the only threat i saw for djokovic was wawrinka or nadal in RG.
now ****ing get serious and dont talk nonsense. before djokovic was on this level we could speak about GOATs - but now we cant anymore.

why is everyone acting like they forgot djokovic,they erased him from history because he is pain in their ass. nobody is speaking of him anymore.

if ****ing federer did what djokovic did - they would make a sarcophag and bury him like ****in Tutankhamun with a golden federer face mask.

its sad that you ****in watch wilander and he never mentions djokovic the whole tournament.
and no one - like he never existed.

man i hated him winning to but i got to be honest as a person. at least i am not lying to myself like half of this stupid forum jerks.

i hope he will return and destroy everyone including nadal and federer. i really hope he will return from the dead and prove once again most of the tennis world lives in a self iniciated fairy tale.
 
RF-18

RF-18

Talk Tennis Guru
ibbi said:
Look how relatively hard Federer fought him in those 2 slam finals during that period when he was at his best. Consider how far from his best Federer was in that period, and then tell me what serious argument there is that Djokovic at his best is going to beat Federer at his best?

Their best of 3 set record over this period you're talking about was even 3-3 to really seal the point. Federer couldn't live with him physically over 5 sets at his age, but over 3 was still more than a match for Djokovic at his most dominant.
Click to expand...

The TRUTH is that Federer wasn't so far from his best

It is a classic argument, "if he played like that and was close etc imagine what hed do at his best". Newsflash: it doesn't work like that nor will it ever do. Federer was reaching slam finals demolishing elite opponents and breaking personal records, he made changes to his game, like backhand, better serve etc. That he was having close matches with Novak doesn't demean Djokos form. Federer is not a bad player when he is in form. Still Djokovic put him away at Wimbledon his best slam in 4 and I tell you you are at a high level when you do that against an inform federer.

As for the OP, that is probably the best Djokovic I've seen but also the best player I have seen play the game. Nobody has as few weaknesses as he does but at the same time have so many weapons.
 
Noelan

Noelan

Legend
acintya said:
no mather what people here think.a lot are just living in a fantasy and thinking Federer or Nadal are the goats. haha,you know you are wrong,you know everyone was afraid of djokovic when he was in his prime.
you never had this feeling that some player is immortal,like a robot. he was so good,and everything was so predictable that you started to hate tennis and the matches.he ruined everything.
im not a big djokovic fan,but i doubt someone would bet his head on some other player. v2011 or v2015 - it does not mather. not even the federer of 2017 would beat more slams than he back then.
really,the only threat i saw for djokovic was wawrinka or nadal in RG.
now ****ing get serious and dont talk nonsense. before djokovic was on this level we could speak about GOATs - but now we cant anymore.

why is everyone acting like they forgot djokovic,they erased him from history because he is pain in their ass. nobody is speaking of him anymore.

if ****ing federer did what djokovic did - they would make a sarcophag and bury him like ****in Tutankhamun with a golden federer face mask.

its sad that you ****in watch wilander and he never mentions djokovic the whole tournament.
and no one - like he never existed.

man i hated him winning to but i got to be honest as a person. at least i am not lying to myself like half of this stupid forum jerks.

i hope he will return and destroy everyone including nadal and federer. i really hope he will return from the dead and prove once again most of the tennis world lives in a self iniciated fairy tale.
Click to expand...
We are living in a media brainwashed World, no place for Serbian vilain to be respected as his accomplishments deserve(they put that label on him and brought it to an another level), who stood hand in hand with those who they're worshiping in the name of love for the game .
Still tennis history books will remember Djokovic, his name is written among the special ones.
And I think Djokovic himself is now in peace with it. The same goes for his fans.
 
ibbi

ibbi

G.O.A.T.
RF-18 said:
The TRUTH is that Federer wasn't so far from his best

It is a classic argument, "if he played like that and was close etc imagine what hed do at his best". Newsflash: it doesn't work like that nor will it ever do. Federer was reaching slam finals demolishing elite opponents and breaking personal records, he made changes to his game, like backhand, better serve etc. That he was having close matches with Novak doesn't demean Djokos form. Federer is not a bad player when he is in form. Still Djokovic put him away at Wimbledon his best slam in 4 and I tell you you are at a high level when you do that against an inform federer.

As for the OP, that is probably the best Djokovic I've seen but also the best player I have seen play the game. Nobody has as few weaknesses as he does but at the same time have so many weapons.
Click to expand...
Federer was playing tennis in a way that most people stopped playing over 10 years earlier because it simply wasn't practical anymore. The fact that he had the amount of success that he did playing that way speaks volumes about the dearth of quality at that time.

The one truly great player around during that period dismissed him handily in all their slam encounters. That 2014 Wimbledon final should never have gone 5 sets, but Novak did his best to choke 2 sets away.

To say nobody has as few weaknesses as he did is a stretch. There were 2 demonstrable ways of beating/troubling him in that period. The old junkball routine Gilles Simon demonstrated close to perfection, and the attack him with aggression and depth and force him to retreat behind the baseline and not look like the all court god that he's allowed to when nobody stands up to him method that Federer showed in Cincinnati, and Wawrinka showed at Roland Garros.

Conversely, Federer had one major issue at his best - Nadal on a clay court. Put me in the camp of guys who think Djokovic's 2011 form with his few flaws, was far scarier than the more robotic, faultless, dominance of 2015.
 
RF-18

RF-18

Talk Tennis Guru
ibbi said:
Federer was playing tennis in a way that most people stopped playing over 10 years earlier because it simply wasn't practical anymore. The fact that he had the amount of success that he did playing that way speaks volumes about the dearth of quality at that time.

The one truly great player around during that period dismissed him handily in all their slam encounters. That 2014 Wimbledon final should never have gone 5 sets, but Novak did his best to choke 2 sets away.

To say nobody has as few weaknesses as he did is a stretch. There were 2 demonstrable ways of beating/troubling him in that period. The old junkball routine Gilles Simon demonstrated close to perfection, and the attack him with aggression and depth and force him to retreat behind the baseline and not look like the all court god that he's allowed to when nobody stands up to him method that Federer showed in Cincinnati, and Wawrinka showed at Roland Garros.

Conversely, Federer had one major issue at his best - Nadal on a clay court. Put me in the camp of guys who think Djokovic's 2011 form with his few flaws, was far scarier than the more robotic, faultless, dominance of 2015.
Click to expand...

Federer played a more attacking playstyle, with improved elements to his game than the baseline junk balling he did when he was younger. Playing attacking tennis is not outdated and someone with feds quality can be successfull playing that way and he obviously was.

So you really bring up Simon to point out Djokovics weakness? He has lost to him only once in 12 meetings. Simon can do all.the junk balling he wants but that won't cut it to beat him. I guess you are mostly pointing to the 2016 AO match they had but Djokovic had it under control. He was never losing that match.
 
ibbi

ibbi

G.O.A.T.
RF-18 said:
Federer played a more attacking playstyle, with improved elements to his game than the baseline junk balling he did when he was younger. Playing attacking tennis is not outdated and someone with feds quality can be successfull playing that way and he obviously was.

So you really bring up Simon to point out Djokovics weakness? He has lost to him only once in 12 meetings. Simon can do all.the junk balling he wants but that won't cut it to beat him in bo5. I guess you are mostly pointing to the 2016 AO match they had but Djokovic had it under control. He was never losing that match.
Click to expand...
Yeah, he was never losing that match because Simon didn't have the weapons to finish the job, and complete the strategy unlike Federer or Nadal when they have had success implementing the same tactics against him in the past. It still showed a clear weakness in Novak's game that can be exploited. 100 unforced errors in a regular 5 set match. That is mindblowing.
 
Noelan

Noelan

Legend
More than once during that period Federer called the whole tour to try to solve Djokovic game and tear him down.

@ibbi put asside your passive aggressive bitterness towards player. and try to read Simon own words about how hard was to execute tactic that he tried .
 
ibbi

ibbi

G.O.A.T.
Noelan said:
More than once during that period Federer called the whole tour to try to solve Djokovic game and tear him down.

@ibbi put asside your passive aggressive bitterness towards player. and try to read Simon own words about how hard was to execute tactic that he tried .
Click to expand...
:| No bitterness, dude. I know you may be away with the fairies enough to believe that's the only way someone could speak ill of your hero, but I'm just speaking based on what I see.

Though I would appreciate if you could direct me towards where I can read Simon's own words on it, yes :D
 
ollinger

ollinger

G.O.A.T.
kevaninho said:
Now my question is this, and forget about being a non fan of him. But was his form as good as anything we've ever seen in tennis?
Click to expand...

why must we endure "best ever" threads from people whose memories don't go back further than the year 2000?? Suggest nobody be allowed to post that type of thread unless they can scan in a copy of their Medicare card (though if your Medicare card appears worn and tattered, so too may be your memory!)
 
Noelan

Noelan

Legend
Oh yes there is ;)
Sorry lazy to find it know, I'm sure there was a tread back in the time (you weren't here that match I guess):)
ibbi said:
:| No bitterness, dude. I know you may be away with the fairies enough to believe that's the only way someone could speak ill of your hero, but I'm just speaking based on what I see.

Though I would appreciate if you could direct me towards where I can read Simon's own words on it, yes :D
Click to expand...
 
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C

Charlie

Guest
TheAssassin said:
Yeah right. A couple of hard court losses in who knows how many matches and suddenly Djokovic cannot beat peak Wawrinka on his favorite surface. :rolleyes:
Click to expand...
Even if he had a 1-65 losing record they'd use that one match to prove his peak is unsolvable for Djokovic. This Stan @$$ kissing is truly cringeworthy. Not to mention they don't even want to discuss the chance that Djokovic could have underperformed while using the same excuse for almost every single loss Federer or Nadal suffered. TTW clowns.
 
mike danny

mike danny

Bionic Poster
Charlie said:
Even if he had a 1-65 losing record they'd use that one match to prove his peak is unsolvable for Djokovic. This Stan @$$ kissing is truly cringeworthy. Not to mention they don't even want to discuss the chance that Djokovic could have underperformed while using the same excuse for almost every single loss Federer or Nadal suffered. TTW clowns.
Click to expand...
The only HC loss in which he under performed was USO 2016.
 
C

Charlie

Guest
mike danny said:
The only HC loss in which he under performed was USO 2016.
Click to expand...
Against Stan, probably yes. Though I remember someone posting a thread how Stan's peak is higher on hard courts right after the final finished. It got to several pages. :oops:
 
mike danny

mike danny

Bionic Poster
Charlie said:
Against Stan, probably yes. Though I remember someone posting a thread how Stan's peak is higher on hard courts right after the final finished. It got to several pages. :oops:
Click to expand...
It's called hyperbole and recency bias. Better ignore it. They probably also said Murray's peak was higher than Djokovic's on HC after the 2012 USO final loss.
 
swordtennis

swordtennis

G.O.A.T.
The only bias around is the fedal worshippers. Djokovic 2015 - 2016 is so underrated it is criminal. That level he sustained was insane. The form started falling apart after AO 2016 but still was so good he gutted it out to win the French finally and then crashed and burned.
 
Noelan

Noelan

Legend
swordtennis said:
The only bias around is the fedal worshippers. Djokovic 2015 - 2016 is so underrated it is criminal. That level he sustained was insane. The form started falling apart after AO 2016 but still was so good he gutted it out to win the French finally and then crashed and burned.
Click to expand...
Literally gutted, he already had serious shoulder issue at Rome 2016 , final w/o was at the stake, out of respect to his opponent and Rome crowd who adore him , he did not pulled out from it.
 
kevaninho

kevaninho

Hall of Fame
ollinger said:
why must we endure "best ever" threads from people whose memories don't go back further than the year 2000?? Suggest nobody be allowed to post that type of thread unless they can scan in a copy of their Medicare card (though if your Medicare card appears worn and tattered, so too may be your memory!)
Click to expand...

I remember plenty from the 90s also, and its considered Pete Sampras was the greatest male player ever at that time. So in my humble opinion, Djokovic's level was even better than Petes. I think he would've destroyed him everywhere other than grass.
 
deacsyoga

deacsyoga

Banned
kevaninho said:
I remember plenty from the 90s also, and its considered Pete Sampras was the greatest male player ever at that time. So in my humble opinion, Djokovic's level was even better than Petes. I think he would've destroyed him everywhere other than grass.
Click to expand...

I think the only surface Sampras would stand a real shot vs Federer or Djokovic is grass and of course carpet. On a hard court, even a faster one, their ground games and movement would be too much for him, as well as how strongly they return big serves (Federer isnt as good an overall returner as Djokovic but is equally adept at getting huge serves back in play).

He would match up better vs Nadal (minus clay) since Nadal doesnt return big serves nearly as well, and plays too far behind the baseline in general.
 
swordtennis

swordtennis

G.O.A.T.
Noelan said:
Literally gutted, he already had serious shoulder issue at Rome 2016 , final w/o was at the stake, out of respect to his opponent and Rome crowd who adore him , he did not pulled out from it.
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He was basically just rolling through on momentum and the will to finally win the French. I think he knew it was his last shot. I think of he ever wins anymore majors it will be at Wimbledon. Easier innthr body. I claimed 2 more Wimbledon titles.
 
Noelan

Noelan

Legend
swordtennis said:
He was basically just rolling through momentum and the will to finally win the French. I think he knew it was his last shot. I think of he ever wins anymore majors it will be at Wimbledon. Easier innthr body. I claimed 2 more Wimbledon titles.
Click to expand...
Yeah I remember Vajda words after RG16 like "this was his last chance to win it.."
I'm all for 2 Wimb, but he needs his old serve back, which will be very tough
 
deacsyoga

deacsyoga

Banned
I really hope Djokovic wins a 2nd RG title. IMO it would be a shame for him to end at just 1 and he is the best clay courter with only 1 RG title with all due respect to Muster, Vilas, and Federer.
 
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