Genie Of the Bank
Hall of Fame
Humidity at those events kills Novak chance to win the titles .
Djokovic and Big title finals record
- Thread starter nolefam_2024
- Start date
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
That he is worse in these two tournaments than any other hc. Still percentage checks is futile. 4 wins from 10 finals at USOpen is far far far better than 3 wins from 7 finals at RG. Plus he was robbed off at least a major at USOpen by circumstances.
GrandSlam24
Semi-Pro
Still better than 0... If he manages to win one more, it'll be dream come true
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MichaelNadal
Bionic Poster
Imagine if he had to play real tennis outside during the day more often instead of in his fishtanks
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
He has maybe 3 times more hc titles than Rafa on outdoors.
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
Nole has incredible wins across the board. His lowest percentages are almost 40. It's incredible. His USOpen wins and Cincinnati wins put him among the best at both events and finals just make him 1 notch below the very best. 1 more title at USOpen and he becomes the GOAT here. No worries.
GrandSlam24
Semi-Pro
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MichaelNadal
Bionic Poster
As he should, and yet he's still way more vulnerable outdoors.
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
Yes compared to Nole indoors he is more vulnerable to outdoors.
Compare to Nole outdoors on hc Rafa is very much vulnerable. Federer is very much vulnerable. who isn't. 5 titles in iw and 6 in Miami both before running 30.
MichaelNadal
Bionic Poster
I just want Nadal’s rightful Miami 05 title
Genie Of the Bank
Hall of Fame
I thought in his younger days he played most of his semis in the day time, the night time was reserved for Fed express aka The Shadow of Death.
MichaelNadal
Bionic Poster
The mighty FedocolesI thought in his younger days he played most of his semis in the day time, the night time was reserved for Fed express aka The Shadow of Death.
Rudiiii
Semi-Pro
Him loosing RG SF 2011, going for NCYGS in 2012, 2019, CYGS in 2021, loosing to Wawrinka at 2015 RG, now loosing to Alcaraz last year, touching net at RG 2013, disqualification at USO 20, breakdowns at USO14, RG20, USO21, AO23. But for sure one of mental giants of the game, as well as fittest man to play game ever, but don't think he distanced himself in mental department as much as others suggest
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
No one else ever did what he did so what kind of bs post is this
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
99% of these losses aren't from mental breakdown. This is just incendiary post.
Rudiiii
Semi-Pro
Of course he has some wins thanks to his mental strength, but not showing at finals of RG20, USO21, WIM23 and AO SF this year are examples of him loosing due to pressure. He also had them during RG21, WIM 21, AO last year(probably thanks to injury) and make comebacks, managed to win three times against Fed when facing match points, so it evens out. His fitness is something out of this world that pushes him to GOAT status, IMO mental strength on pair with Sampras, Nadal, Borg, Big Mac, Fed during his peak etc
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
RG 20, Wimby 23 and AO 24 are not lost based on mental strength. You may have a pt that Djokovic mental strength is exaggerated but then use better examples. When was Nole winning in RG and AO in these years. He played very poorly and lost it. Wimby 23 he did have 1 small mental lapse at tiebreak but that was just in set 2.
I will concede USO 21 to you. Nole played an inferior player to him very poorly. Only problem being he was going for CYGS.
James_Bolt
Rookie
The Blond Blur
G.O.A.T.
It is now. Plus the OP included it in his OP. Joker has been making the Olympics a priority as far back as 2008. Ergo him saying he’s won everything when he’s desperately tried to get a single Olympic gold medal (even going as far as to play mixed doubles) doesn’t add up.Olympics wasn't always a big titles.
James_Bolt
Rookie
Djokovic had 18 consecutives big titles finals.
You may wanna check that one more time Mike, see below...
Rafa - 268 entries = 58 outdoors BT = 21.6% success rate
Novak - 238 entries = 57 outdoors BT = 23.9% success rate
I don't wanna ruin your Chicken wings night cause they are one of my favorites too, but, facts are facts and I believe you'll understand. BTW, I consider you a reasonable Rafa fan, not a blind hatter...
James_Bolt
Rookie
Trying to visit a city that you never ever visited doesn't mean it's the best city ever.
The Blond Blur
G.O.A.T.
Who said the Olympics was the biggest title? Nothing is bigger than the schlems, but to say that the Olympics aren’t a big title is moving the goalposts.
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
Insane. Should have somehow beaten Wawrinka.Djokovic had 18 consecutives big titles finals.
DSH
Bionic Poster
Unseeded Player
Hall of Fame
Olympics is not an ATP event. It doesn't even bring points to the table + it is played every 4 years.Joker: “I’ve done it all, sorry.”
In these events, the worst he has played is Olympics where he never made even a final.
Unseeded Player
Hall of Fame
He was more vulnerable there but again won ti multiple times.
The Blond Blur
G.O.A.T.
And? The OP included it in his OP. Joker has made it a priority since 2008. In 2012 he said his 2 biggest goals that year were to win RG and the OSG. In 2021 he played singles and mixed doubles just to his hands on a gold medal. It’s a big title that he hasn’t won ergo his statement “I’ve won everything” is incorrect.
Neptune
Hall of Fame
James_Bolt
Rookie
Moving the goalpost is saying that Olympics is a big title as the definition of big title changed over time.
The Blond Blur
G.O.A.T.
It’s been a big title since Joker started prioritizing it back in 2008. He’s tried and failed repeatedly to win it. It’s so hilarious how Joker has repeatedly stated how bad he wants it yet his own fans keep trying to down play it’ importance. The OP literally included it in the chart of his OP.
Azure
G.O.A.T.
IMO mental strength shines not when you are at your best but when when you aren’t doing great and still pulling through. This is why Fed at his best is a strange way to put it. When you are leagues above the competition, you are bound to ride high on confidence. Fed’s mental strength actually shone through in 2017 AO. Lots of demons and still came through.
Razer
G.O.A.T.
Federer did not have lot of opportunities to develop his mental strength in 01-07 except his tough matches with Nalbandian, the tough battle in life came for him afterwards and against players who were a bit younger, maybe that could have adversely affected him. It would be interesting to see Federer battle Djokovic aged same facing them from day 1, perhaps he could have outlasted them in the end that way.
Azure
G.O.A.T.
Yeah I guess we’d never know these things. He did have to face Nadal a lot of times though and even in matches he was the better player or at least close to the level of Nadal he lost.
Unseeded Player
Hall of Fame
Nadal owned him 2008-2016 period.
Unseeded Player
Hall of Fame
Someone can also put priority on Vienna Open that still doesn't make it big tournament. The value is messured by the points that can bring and money prize, everythiing else is wishful thinking.
Razer
G.O.A.T.
Facing Nadal since his junior days would be better to figure him out by the time he entered his 20s or middish 20s, while Nadal would be a pain in the arse early the odds of Federer figuring him out by some racquet change or coaching change or whatever would work better now. IRL Federer faced Nadal as a surprised package when Fed was also approaching 22-23 and then took more than a decade to come up with a formula dude to the athletic difference coupled with age, however in our new scenario Federer would now gain confidence as he entered his prime and Rafa inevitably having his injuries to level the gap. This advantage Novak had over Federer, Federer never had this because he started to deteriorate before Rafa hit his peak while Novak started to deteriorate after Fedal were past their prime....
Downside of this is now Federer would now have Novak too to content with in his peak and growing years, the HC slams will now be a dogfight and Federer will have to take on Novak there. Grass Federer will be fine, it is the HCs where he will have all the problems. Agewise Djokovic matured very early on HCs as well, before either of Federer or Nadal, so that is where the challenge would exist for Federer.
The Blond Blur
G.O.A.T.
This is nonsensical and not even remotely true. The value comes from the scope and history of the event. Besides the Olympics has been classified as a “big event” for years now. The Olympics is literally the 2nd biggest sporting event in the world. Just because it isn’t the biggest event tennis (the schlems will always be king) doesn’t mean they aren’t important or a big event. If they weren’t important then Joker wouldn’t have bawled like a baby multiple times for not being able to win it.
Drob
Hall of Fame
Good work.
I know this is focused on modern times. Still, Tilden and Budge would have similarly high percentages of success at "Big Tournaments" although far fewer such tournaments. As to the big number, 71 total titles at Big Tournaments, Rod Laver is very close. It is practically equal.
Unseeded Player
Hall of Fame
So by this WB has bigger value than other slams but all 4 bring 2000 points max on the table? How many points does Olympics bring? Earlier nothing, now less than 500 series tournament and they changed that only to try to make more players come. Olympics are biggest tournament for athletics, swimmers, some individual sports...I don't even know who are gold winners in football, basketball...As for tennis it is not even an ATP event. OG mean different things to different people..
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
Yes but how can we get those statistics?
Phoenix*
Professional
Azure
G.O.A.T.
Seriously impressive
The Blond Blur
G.O.A.T.
It’s not anymore. A schlem is a schlem. Any minor more importance Wimby might have is down to it being the oldest tournament in the world and it’s still played on the original surface. That’s it. Again, no one here including me said that the Olympics are the biggest sporting event for tennis. But it is a big event and has been categorized as such for years now.
And you do realize that the schlems aren’t ATP events either right? By your logic those shouldn’t be called big titles. The OP included them in his OP. Tiny Carl said he’d rather win a gold medal than another schlem this year. Joker has stated for years how bad he wants the gold medal in singles. You don’t look like this after losing in some meaningless event:
Ergo Joker saying he’s won everything when he was asked which tournament he’d want to win was wrong.
He should’ve won that and Fed should’ve won Rome in 2006.I just want Nadal’s rightful Miami 05 title
Rudiiii
Semi-Pro
DSH
Bionic Poster
It is quite, to say the least, "peculiar" that he has had so much success in those tournaments in his late stage above what he achieved in his prime.
Phoenix*
Professional
Show me these people doing anything close to Djo saving 2 CPs.
Drob
Hall of Fame
I have done it to a great extent. So I can say it is close. The hard part is judging "Big Tournaments" (non Majors) for Laver's professional years. But there are some obvious tournaments, as there are for his amateur years. There are others that might be borderline or debatable. But the information is available at thetennisbase.com (TB) for amateur and Pro, as well as the book The Professional Tennis Archive by Chris Jordan, for the Pro years. By information I mean the records. Jordan does not designate anything like Big Tournaments, and TB only indicates vaguely with a Category "B" designation. Rocket's Open era Big Tournaments are accessible through sifting through the back calendars on the ATP Website, which work I have done. It is a criteria of level of Prize Money, strength of the draw (and size), and in some cases tradition. He has 20 or slightly more Big Tournaments in Open era, not counting his 5 Slams = 25+. You can add his 6 amateur and 9 professional majors = 40+. Then add the appropriate tourneys from amateur and professional years. It is going to come out very close to Nole, maybe just shy, I don't know. Meanwhile Novak should add a few more of his own.
I will eventually make an assertion on the number of Big Titles that should be credited to Laver. I have the data; I just need to do some more analysis of many tournaments. Of course, there will be nothing authoritative in that, but it will hopefully provide important historical information, even if it is considered an "estimate" or something like that. And hopefully also generate some fun discussions. There will never be an official Laver statistic for Big Titles, nor for half of the ATGs. Tennis will never have anything like the Baseball Reference historical database. The two guys who could achieve something like that don't have the interest.
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