Djokovic and Coria both at their best on clay- who wins

[davey25]

Often people have speculated how a prime Coria would fare on clay today. I think one interesting matchup would be Coria of 2003-2005 vs Djokovic of 2008-2009 on clay. Which do you feel would win if they faced off on clay both at their best, and who do you feel is better. Well I am aware who is better and who would win can be two different things depending on the matchup variables but still I think it would be interesting to see Coria of 2004 vs Djokovic of 2008 and 2009 on clay.

Djokovic did manage to beat Federer on clay which Coria even at his best failed to do in 2 tries. At the French Djokovic has done better in the sense that he has lost to Nadal in a late round 3 times, while Coria has dissapointed.

Keep in mind I am not talking about the Djokovic of this year who is floundering around the court and playing less than half his potential.

 

[NamRanger]

Djokovic beat Federer once on clay in a miracle match during Federer's slump year that Federer should have won. Abysmal play by both players, and not very indicative of how a match between the two of them would go if both were at their best.




I'd take Coria simply because prime Coria has the stamina to outlast Djokovic in a 5 set match. Coria stayed toe to toe with Nadal for all 5 sets in 2006 at Rome; I don't think Djokovic has the stamina to do so.



In terms of overall game, I think Djokovic has more firepower, but Coria has better point construction, better stamina, and way better movement. On clay, I'd say Coria would win quite comfortably if he was in his prime years.

 

[kishnabe]

Coria played Pre-prime Federer and lost. However Djokovic played a slumping Federer and won. That doesn't make Djokovic a better player than Coria on clay in their primes.
Had Djokovic beat Federer in 2005,06,07 on clay then I would agree.

Coria pushed a pre-prime Nadal to 5 sets in rome. Djokovic can from 2009 form push pre-prime Nadal to 4 sets at best. That means Coria is a better clay courter.

I have seen Coria prime ability....and so far it is better than what Djokovic has ever offered on clay. Right now We don't Djokoivic prime is yet, since he is only in his young 20's. Maybe be around when he is 25-27...we can see his prime and then really given an awnswer if he would beat Coria on clay at his best.

Right now...I would give the cake to coria!

 

[Synesthetic]

Certainly Coria, for now

 

[Synesthetic]

The main factors are movement and fitness; Djokovic does have more firepower though and can balance offense with counterpunching unlike Coria who was primarily the latter.

 

[Ripster]

Good thread. I've followed both their careers closely and their H2H is 2-2 with 3 of the matches played on clay. Coria beat a pre-prime Djokovic at RG in 2005 and Djokovic won their last two matches on clay in Umag and Hamburg '06, again when both Djokovic and Coria weren't in their primes. Coria was playing his best in 2004 obviously and Djokovic so far in his career, in 08-09.

Honestly I feel like if both were playing their best that Djokovic would come out on top. The fact that he even took a set off of Coria in '05 is maybe telling. With Djokovic's firepower he could perhaps hit Coria off the court although I can recall Agassi trying to do the same to Coria at the '03 French Open and Coria deflected all of his pace and hit a ton of backhand rips down the line.

Tough call but I would say Djokovic by a hair.

 

[Toxicmilk]

Depends on the temperature... :twisted:

 

[davey25]

Good thread. I've followed both their careers closely and their H2H is 2-2 with 3 of the matches played on clay. Coria beat a pre-prime Djokovic at RG in 2005 and Djokovic won their last two matches on clay in Umag and Hamburg '06, again when both Djokovic and Coria weren't in their primes. Coria was playing his best in 2004 obviously and Djokovic so far in his career, in 08-09.

Honestly I feel like if both were playing their best that Djokovic would come out on top. The fact that he even took a set off of Coria in '05 is maybe telling. With Djokovic's firepower he could perhaps hit Coria off the court although I can recall Agassi trying to do the same to Coria at the '03 French Open and Coria deflected all of his pace and hit a ton of backhand rips down the line.

Tough call but I would say Djokovic by a hair.

Yeah that pretty much sums up my thoughts as well. I respect Coria's clay court abilities but think Djokovic of 08-09 would just nudge it out even on clay for the reasons you stated.

It is sad how Coria was never the same player after the 2004 French though. In 2005 he was really good but just a bit off from 2004 I felt, and then obviously after 2005 never even close to the same. Of course alot of that was his shoulder problems, losing any serving rythym. I think alot of that was also the emotional impact of that French Open final though. To lose that way was just devastating to him. Then when Nadal emerged in 2005 and began to take over on clay that was probably the icing on the cake that really ended things for him. Even though Coria gave Nadal an amazing match in Rome I think subconcsiously he might have began thinking that the 04 French would turn out to be his only real shot of winning there with how strong and young Nadal already was. That isnt how things looked after the 04 French where you thought for sure Coria would have more shots at it, and that was probably what helped comfort him in the despair, but then Nadal coming on the year after that....it probably just became too much, in addition to all the injuries, his wife leaving him, etc...

 

[Anaconda]

Yeah that pretty much sums up my thoughts as well. I respect Coria's clay court abilities but think Djokovic of 08-09 would just nudge it out even on clay for the reasons you stated.

It is sad how Coria was never the same player after the 2004 French though. In 2005 he was really good but just a bit off from 2004 I felt, and then obviously after 2005 never even close to the same. Of course alot of that was his shoulder problems, losing any serving rythym. I think alot of that was also the emotional impact of that French Open final though. To lose that way was just devastating to him. Then when Nadal emerged in 2005 and began to take over on clay that was probably the icing on the cake that really ended things for him. Even though Coria gave Nadal an amazing match in Rome I think subconcsiously he might have began thinking that the 04 French would turn out to be his only real shot of winning there with how strong and young Nadal already was. That isnt how things looked after the 04 French where you thought for sure Coria would have more shots at it, and that was probably what helped comfort him in the despair, but then Nadal coming on the year after that....it probably just became too much, in addition to all the injuries, his wife leaving him, etc...

Then he shouldn't throw away a 2-0 lead and multiple championship points in slam finals against Journeymen then.

 

[Deleted member 22147]

Gaudio a journeyman.

Haha.

 

[Anaconda]

But Gaudio was a journeyman before that tournament.

 

[Mustard]

Definitely Coria, especially 2004 Coria when he strutted about on the court as if he owned it.

 

[davey25]

But Gaudio was a journeyman before that tournament.

Journeyman might be a bit harsh but he certainly wasnt much more than before his RG triumph. No Grand Slam quarterfinals, not even many round of 16s I dont think, and no Masters finals (maybe 2 semis). Never held a particularly high ranking before that either.

 

[thalivest]

Honestly I feel like if both were playing their best that Djokovic would come out on top. The fact that he even took a set off of Coria in '05 is maybe telling. With Djokovic's firepower he could perhaps hit Coria off the court although I can recall Agassi trying to do the same to Coria at the '03 French Open and Coria deflected all of his pace and hit a ton of backhand rips down the line.

Not to take anything away from Coria but that wasnt exactly prime Agassi. Mind you Agassi even at that point still hit a very clean and strong ball.

 

[Mustard]

Journeyman might be a bit harsh but he certainly wasnt much more than before his RG triumph. No Grand Slam quarterfinals, not even many round of 16s I dont think, and no Masters finals (maybe 2 semis). Never held a particularly high ranking before that either.

Just before the 2004 French Open final, Gaudio said that he wasn't in the same league as Coria as a player. Considering that they didn't exactly get on, that's quite a compliment.

Gaudio was ranked number 44 in the world at the time of the 2004 French Open, going up to a career high number 10 after winning the tournament. Gaudio's previous highest ranking had been number 19 for 2 weeks in March 2003. His career high ranking to date is spending 2 weeks at world number 5 in April-May 2005.

 

[bolo]

Not to take anything away from Coria but that wasnt exactly prime Agassi. Mind you Agassi even at that point still hit a very clean and strong ball.

I have some good memories of that match and you are right agassi was hitting a clean, strong ball. I remember agassi saying immediately after that match that he would love to face coria off clay. Ripped coria apart at the US open that year too.

 

[Cyan]

Coria......

 

[Jimmyk459]

Coria could take an in-form nadal to 5 sets..., Djoker could never do that

 

[statto]

Coria. Easily.

 

[Andres]

Journeyman might be a bit harsh but he certainly wasnt much more than before his RG triumph. No Grand Slam quarterfinals, not even many round of 16s I dont think, and no Masters finals (maybe 2 semis). Never held a particularly high ranking before that either.

Yet, he did play TWO Masters Cup. Including reaching a SF (and then, getting thrashed by Fed :lol: )

 

[cork_screw]

why would you even throw djokovic's name in the mix? he's not even known for his clay game. coria on the otherhand was at his prime one of the best clay courters around. he even tested nadal at times. should we start comparing kurt rambis to scottie pippen next? please...

 

[Mustard]

Yet, he did play TWO Masters Cup. Including reaching a SF (and then, getting thrashed by Fed :lol: )

Ouch. Gaudio ate two bagels

 

[thalivest]

Coria could take an in-form nadal to 5 sets..., Djoker could never do that

Nadal was only 18 years old when Coria took him to 5 sets. I would be willing to bet money Coria could never take a 20-23 year old Nadal to 5 sets unless he were injured. Nadal was much better in 2009 before the Madrid final than he was in 2005 and Djokovic still pushed him to the limit twice- Monte Carlo and the Madrid semis.

 

[thalivest]

why would you even throw djokovic's name in the mix? he's not even known for his clay game. coria on the otherhand was at his prime one of the best clay courters around. he even tested nadal at times. should we start comparing kurt rambis to scottie pippen next? please...

You seem to be forgetting Djokovic was considered by many people the 2nd best clay courter ahead of Federer before last years French Open. Many also feel he was the 2nd best clay courter in 2008 ahead of Federer. Coria in 2005 when he was last playing very well was considered the distant 3rd best clay courter behind Nadal and Federer at best.

 

[David_Is_Right]

Depends how much Nandrolone Coria's doing at the moment...

 

[Mustard]

You seem to be forgetting Djokovic was considered by many people the 2nd best clay courter ahead of Federer before last years French Open. Many also feel he was the 2nd best clay courter in 2008 ahead of Federer. Coria in 2005 when he was last playing very well was considered the distant 3rd best clay courter behind Nadal and Federer at best.

In 2004, Coria was considered the best clay-court player in the world and his body language was very positive. Even when Federer beat him in the Hamburg final, Coria still entered the French Open as the favourite. In 2005, his body language was much more negative and he didn't play to the same clay-court standard on a consistent basis, but he did show flashes of brilliance. That 2005 Rome final between Nadal and Coria is arguably the best clay-court match of all time.

 

[Mustard]

Depends how much Nandrolone Coria's doing at the moment...

Coria proved that the supplement he was taking in 2001 was contaminated with nandrolone, and he won a court case that he brought against the company.

 

[thalivest]

In 2004, Coria was considered the best clay-court player in the world and his body language was very positive. Even when Federer beat him in the Hamburg final, Coria still entered the French Open as the favourite. In 2005, his body language was much more negative and he didn't play to the same clay-court standard on a consistent basis, but he did show flashes of brilliance. That 2005 Rome final between Nadal and Coria is arguably the best clay-court match of all time.

He was considered the best clay courter in the World in 2004 since Nadal was not around yet, and Federer was not a consistent threat on the clay yet either. There is no way Coria would ever be considered the best clay courter in the World over an even semi-prime Nadal.

No disrespect to Coria who is an excellent clay courter in his prime, but he had great timing to peak in 2004. Kuerten was long done by injuries, Ferrero was a shadow of his 2001-2003 self with injuries and illness, Federer didnt play well in any clay events outside of Hamburg yet, and Nadal was in diapers. I doubt he would have been the top clay courter many other years, if any, and even in that year he didnt dominate on clay with only 1 Masters title and no French Open title. I doubt if Ferrero didnt have his health problems that Coria would have ever become the guy to beat on clay in 2004 either.

In accessing Coria's abilities on clay he has many fine attributes but he does not have either the physical or mental strength to stand up to the those guys I mentioned on the surface. Nor does he have the extra kill firepower you need even on clay vs the guys I mentioned.

 

[CyBorg]

Coria was, at one point, a great clay court player. Fluid mover with accurate groundies from both sides with perfect angles, great depth.

I think the tour today lacks this kind of player. We have a lot of big, powerful guys but they're not very consistent with their groundstrokes. While Coria was small, really mobile and he would just drive his opponents crazy with his placement and penetrating angles.

His head just went. But for a while he was really something.

 

[Mustard]

Coria was, at one point, a great clay court player. Fluid mover with accurate groundies from both sides with perfect angles, great depth.

I think the tour today lacks this kind of player. We have a lot of big, powerful guys but they're not very consistent with their groundstrokes. While Coria was small, really mobile and he would just drive his opponents crazy with his placement and penetrating angles.

His head just went. But for a while he was really something.

His serve went more than anything. The yips can strike anyone down at any time. By 2006, it was awful seeing him struggling like heck to just put a serve into play.

 

[davey25]

I think psychologically he was damaged by the 2004 FO final and by Nadal's emergence on clay soon after as well. It is tough emotionally to take blowing something like that, then being shocked to find out a year later that might end up having been your only real shot at it- which seemed unimaginable at the time. A broken dream, a broke psyche, broken confidence, and a broken serve, a bad combination of things to have going against you all of a sudden.

 

[David_Is_Right]

Coria proved that the supplement he was taking in 2001 was contaminated with nandrolone, and he won a court case that he brought against the company.

The high court judge ruled that “Parties further agree that Universal’s products were safe as formulated to the label, and met all F.D.A. standards.” Coria slipped out from under with another spurious excuse, which is sadly typical of what we have seen in tennis for a long time.

Let me guess, you also leave your front door unlocked and your car keys in the ignition when you park it?

 

[egn]

Nadal was only 18 years old when Coria took him to 5 sets. I would be willing to bet money Coria could never take a 20-23 year old Nadal to 5 sets unless he were injured. Nadal was much better in 2009 before the Madrid final than he was in 2005 and Djokovic still pushed him to the limit twice- Monte Carlo and the Madrid semis.

God the age excuse again. Nadal was on 18 thats why Coria took him to 5 sets. Coria was such a choker or Nadal would have lost that Rome final. Lets be real Djokovic even against 18 year old Nadal would be lucky to push him to 5 sets. What is your justification for 05 Nadal being worse than 09? Win percentage, titles, give me something.

in 05 Nadal was (50-2) (.968 ) won 2 masters and RG
in 06 Nadal was (26-0) (.1000) won 2 masters and RG with a disgustingly weak clay court field with n/o intended but Ljubicic saw the semis of RG not beating a player in the top 70 if I recall..
in 07 Nadal was (31-1) (.968 ) won 2 masters and RG
in 08 Nadal was (24-1) (.96) won 2 masters and RG
in 09 Nadal was (24-2) (.923) won 2 masters

NO DIFFERENCE IN RESULTS except for 09. However hmm Nadal didn't get his RG and instead lost to Soderling...at least in 05 Nadal won that. Is it any possibility that Djokovic maybe was able to push a more out of form Nadal in 09 than the in form 05 Nadal. I'm sorry but in best of 5 Djokovic could never do what Coria did to Nadal and 05 Nadal was no joke. 05 Nadal could have beat 09 Nadal on clay. So lets stop going HE WAS 18. Its not an excuse.

Coria's game works better on clay than Djoker and frankly Coria was an endurance man, requiring this match is not put in the finals of Rolland Garros Coria I feel would win it.

 

[thalivest]

Nadal basically lost the Rome final to Madrid all due to fatigue from the Djokovic match, and lost at the French due to injury. The Nadal that played up until the Madrid semis was much better than the Nadal of 2005, although still not quite as good as the Nadal of 2008. Yes I think Djokovic of 2008 and 2009 would hold his own vs a 18 year old Nadal which, why wouldnt he. Even Gaudio whipped Nadal once or twice that year if I recall correctly.

As for your last comment you are basically admiting Coria is a Roland Garros choker, which I would agree with. After all his prime years he lost to Verkerk, Gaudio, and a pre prime Davydenko there, all guys except maybe Davydenko he would never lose to at any other clay event. Well that is the biggest clay court event out there so how can it be an exception.

 

[P_Agony]

A 100% Djokovic is an amazing clay courter, I have no doubt better than a prime Coria as well

 

[Cesc Fabregas]

A 100% Djokovic is an amazing clay courter, I have no doubt better than a prime Coria as well

Not really. Djokovic is a far better player than Coria but Prime Coria was the better claycourter, better mover, more consistant groundstrokes, better point construction and better stamina.

 

[davey25]

Not really. Djokovic is a far better player than Coria but Prime Coria was the better claycourter, better mover, more consistant groundstrokes, better point construction and better stamina.

For the most part I agree but sometimes vastly more power overcomes all of that. And while Djokovic might be better in all the areas you said on clay Djokovic is actually quite good in all of them himself. Most significant though is Coria is an even bigger mental flake with even more questionable fitness and physical strength than Djokovic. Coria is essentialy a very talented clay court player who is still too lacking in kill power and both mental and physical endurance to really reach the top level up against any competition, even on clay.

That said I think 2004 Coria vs 2008-2009 Djokovic is a tough call which is why I made the poll. I might favor Coria by a hair in non French Open events. However at the French Djokovic often comes through with very strong performances, apart from 2009. Coria is a bigtime choker and underperformer at the French. So at the French, the granddaddy of clay court events, I would have to favor prime Djokovic over prime Coria.

 

[jwbarrientos]

easy call Coria, BTW he is running juniors' ARG team, that got good results @ Odesur Games ... (Considering he is just 27 If I am not wrong).

 

[jwbarrientos]

I think psychologically he was damaged by the 2004 FO final and by Nadal's emergence on clay soon after as well. It is tough emotionally to take blowing something like that, then being shocked to find out a year later that might end up having been your only real shot at it- which seemed unimaginable at the time. A broken dream, a broke psyche, broken confidence, and a broken serve, a bad combination of things to have going against you all of a sudden.

Yeap, 2004 RG + Nadal + Broken shoulder ... don't forget that.

 

[NamRanger]

For the most part I agree but sometimes vastly more power overcomes all of that. And while Djokovic might be better in all the areas you said on clay Djokovic is actually quite good in all of them himself. Most significant though is Coria is an even bigger mental flake with even more questionable fitness and physical strength than Djokovic. Coria is essentialy a very talented clay court player who is still too lacking in kill power and both mental and physical endurance to really reach the top level up against any competition, even on clay.

That said I think 2004 Coria vs 2008-2009 Djokovic is a tough call which is why I made the poll. I might favor Coria by a hair in non French Open events. However at the French Djokovic often comes through with very strong performances, apart from 2009. Coria is a bigtime choker and underperformer at the French. So at the French, the granddaddy of clay court events, I would have to favor prime Djokovic over prime Coria.

Djokovic would have to be firing on all cylinders and be as fit as possible to even stand a chance. Coria is simply a terrible match-up for Djokovic.

 

[GraniteHoosier]

In a 3 setter I think Djokovic has the weapons to win, but in a 5 setter Coria would wear him out.

 

[pjonesy]

Not to take anything away from Coria but that wasnt exactly prime Agassi. Mind you Agassi even at that point still hit a very clean and strong ball.

Agassi post '96 was never dominating on clay. Yes, he won the French in '99, but he did not have to play Rios, Safin, Kafelnikov or Kuerten. I am not sure he ever had a win on clay against any of those players, but I am sure he beat most of them on hardcourts. Coria was probably the best clay court player in the world in '03. Agassi was not in Coria's league on clay, but certainly could compete with him on hard courts. Agassi was a great competitor on any surface, but he was not a natural mover on clay. He basically brought his hardcourt game to the clay, which played into the hands of the top clay courters.

 

[vincent_tennis]

Coria cuz Djoker will retire

 

[NLBwell]

Djokovic - if he can finish the match.

 

[egn]

Nadal basically lost the Rome final to Madrid all due to fatigue from the Djokovic match, and lost at the French due to injury. The Nadal that played up until the Madrid semis was much better than the Nadal of 2005, although still not quite as good as the Nadal of 2008. Yes I think Djokovic of 2008 and 2009 would hold his own vs a 18 year old Nadal which, why wouldnt he. Even Gaudio whipped Nadal once or twice that year if I recall correctly.

Gaudio did not whip him Nadal played a sloppy match hell in 2008 Nadal lost to an old JCF. Don't cry injury or anything please I'm sick of it. He went on to crush in the next two tournaments. I mean seriously the guy does lose occasionally. I'm not saying he wouldn't hold his own but I'm saying I don't feel he would fair as well as Coria as what it comes down to with Nadal is who can keep up with Nadal better. I don't think Djoker could ever do that more than Coria.

As for your last comment you are basically admiting Coria is a Roland Garros choker, which I would agree with. After all his prime years he lost to Verkerk, Gaudio, and a pre prime Davydenko there, all guys except maybe Davydenko he would never lose to at any other clay event. Well that is the biggest clay court event out there so how can it be an exception.

Put them at any other location I give it Coria also that doesn't mean I even think Djoker is better. I think Coria is fundamentally the better clay courter but I do think he would choke against Djoker on clay in the right situations.

 

[Cesc Fabregas]

Djokovic would have to be firing on all cylinders and be as fit as possible to even stand a chance. Coria is simply a terrible match-up for Djokovic.

Yeah Coria would drive Djokovic nuts, Djokovic's lack of transition game would cost him.

 

[Anaconda]

Djokovic and Coria are actually tied 2-2. Djokovic actually has a 2-1 lead over Coria on clay, whilst Coria has beaten him on hard and clay once. I don't think anyone can actually call this a tough matchup for one particular player and also they never played at their best, obviously. The only thing i would question about Djokovic at his best would be his fitness.

 

[Deleted member 77403]

Prime Coria.

 

[Iceman778]

nobody lies.........

 

[tacou]

depends if Coria chokes before Djokovic tires out.

bu t seriously, I'd have to agree with Novak in best of 3, Coria best of 5..I really like Coria and think he's somewhat underrated , at least based on pure tennis talent (mental fitness aside) and he's especially phenomenal on clay, but if we are talking absolute best..Novak can take out anyone in the world fairly easily. however, you are pitting him against Coria at his absolute best..

so yeah, I'll have to maintain that Novak has about a 70% chance to win a best of 3, while Coria at about 75% on best of 5