Djokovic and Federer are the first...

Lew II

Lew II

G.O.A.T.
Djokovic and Federer are the first Open Era ATGs to have a higher winning percentage against younger players than they do against older players. Nadal is also close.

vs older / vs younger

Connors 86.33 / 78.33
Borg 83.83 / 75.00
McEnroe 84.63 / 78.00
Lendl 82.04 / 80.89
Wilander 78.09 / 62.39
Becker 80.78 / 70.12
Edberg 80.00 / 69.23
Agassi 76.67 / 75.21
Sampras 78.12 / 76.44
Federer 80.29 / 83.33
Nadal 83.17 / 82.82
Murray 78.39 / 75.69
Djokovic 80.78 / 87.86
 
Bit surprised Fed has a higher percentage against younger players considering that must include Nadal and Djokovic and Fed's peers didnt stick around that long in general. Djokovic and Nadal I would have expected this of considering the generations after them have been poor with the exception of Delpo and to some extent Cilic (of course Murray would also count and he has had a lot of success). Perhaps Nadal doesnt have the higher success vs younger players compared to older ones because he was actually so good at defeating older players from early on in his career, also I guess his success vs Fed and slight losing record vs Djokovic
 
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Lew II said:
Djokovic and Federer are the first Open Era ATGs to have a higher winning percentage against younger players than they do against older players. Nadal is also close.

vs older / vs younger

Connors 86.33 / 78.33
Borg 83.83 / 75.00
McEnroe 84.63 / 78.00
Lendl 82.04 / 80.89
Wilander 78.09 / 62.39
Becker 80.78 / 70.12
Edberg 80.00 / 69.23
Agassi 76.67 / 75.21
Sampras 78.12 / 76.44
Federer 80.29 / 83.33
Nadal 83.17 / 82.82
Murray 78.39 / 75.69
Djokovic 80.78 / 87.86
Click to expand...
And what should that tell you?
 
I imagine strident Federistas might construe these numbers as supporting a couple of claims they sometimes make.

A) As a general rule, younger generations tend to hold an advantage against older generations, and it's an advantage to be the younger player in a rivalry (I believe this was also borne out when looking at the H2Hs of various all-time-greats). The Laver/Rosewall gen was supplanted by Connors and Borg; Lendl and Mac were supplanted by the Pete and Becker gen; Pete struggled with the Hewitt/Safin/Roddick gen toward the end of his career, and so on.

B) The current 'young' generation at large has failed miserably, and so the natural order of young generations supplanting the old generation hasn't happened they way it always has.
 
Sysyphus said:
I imagine strident Federistas might construe these numbers as supporting a couple of claims they sometimes make.

A) As a general rule, younger generations tend to hold an advantage against older generations, and it's an advantage to be the younger player in a rivalry (I believe this was also borne out when looking at the H2Hs of various all-time-greats). The Laver/Rosewall gen was supplanted by Connors and Borg; Lendl and Mac were supplanted by the Pete and Becker gen; Pete struggled with the Hewitt/Safin/Roddick gen toward the end of his career, and so on.

B) The current 'young' generation at large has failed miserably, and so the natural order of young generations supplanting the old generation hasn't happened they way it always has.
Click to expand...

Those were my first thoughts, though it should be noted that for Federer, younger opponents also includes the Nadal/Djokovic/Murray generation as well as prize pigeons like Roddick/Wawrinka - not just the two fail gens. It would be interesting to see the number of meetings as well @Lew II ? Federer has played so long and the Kuerten, Moya etc...generation disappeared so early on that I'm wondering if he's played proportionally more matches against younger players compared to some other ATG's, plus he was quite slow to really get going as well.

I would say that for Djokovic the weakness of the LostGen and NextGen so far is probably largely responsible for the quite huge 7.8% better results against younger players...
 
Sysyphus said:
I imagine strident Federistas might construe these numbers as supporting a couple of claims they sometimes make.

A) As a general rule, younger generations tend to hold an advantage against older generations, and it's an advantage to be the younger player in a rivalry (I believe this was also borne out when looking at the H2Hs of various all-time-greats). The Laver/Rosewall gen was supplanted by Connors and Borg; Lendl and Mac were supplanted by the Pete and Becker gen; Pete struggled with the Hewitt/Safin/Roddick gen toward the end of his career, and so on.

B) The current 'young' generation at large has failed miserably, and so the natural order of young generations supplanting the old generation hasn't happened they way it always has.
Click to expand...
But, Federer and Djokovic (and Nadal is close) are better against younger players than the older ones, so nowadays age excuses are just excuses. For Federer thru his carrier was better to play against younger players. He raised overall winning percentage thru his carrier too, so age excuse is again just excuse.
In other times being older was disadvantage but now percentages shows that its advantage.

So, stop age excuses, please! Nadal and Djokovic are "old" too... Remember that too Fedestrians...
 
Sysyphus said:
I imagine strident Federistas might construe these numbers as supporting a couple of claims they sometimes make.

A) As a general rule, younger generations tend to hold an advantage against older generations, and it's an advantage to be the younger player in a rivalry (I believe this was also borne out when looking at the H2Hs of various all-time-greats). The Laver/Rosewall gen was supplanted by Connors and Borg; Lendl and Mac were supplanted by the Pete and Becker gen; Pete struggled with the Hewitt/Safin/Roddick gen toward the end of his career, and so on.

B) The current 'young' generation at large has failed miserably, and so the natural order of young generations supplanting the old generation hasn't happened they way it always has.
Click to expand...
I think this change is quite normal. Back then players reached their top level early (with 20 or even before), so the phase where losses against the older greats were a normality was over quite soon.

The decline at the end of the career was slow but steadily, so the younger players had more years where they could gain easy wins against the older ones.

One main reason was the frequent change of technology though. A player who started with a certain racquet or in certain surface conditions always had an advantage over a player who had to adapt. Older players being pushed out before wasn’t ONLY because of their age.

Now we are in an era (maybe for the first time) with no decisive changes for at least 15 years. So not much could change, and the best results for upcomers start with an older age.
 
yokied said:
Can I get a similar breakdown showing the performance of current era Fedhaters Vs previous eras? I liked the old stuff better than the new stuff, frankly, and I'm sure I'm not alone.
Click to expand...

Years ago on another forum I experienced a lot of Fed hating specialists who never ran out of finding new nicknames. A few I remember are:

General Shanko Backhand
Shanky
Basel Backhand Bungler

etc.

Current Fed hating crop is more like: 'Fed has a big nose and Mirka is fat'.
 
Surprising stats because Nadal has been the toughest one of the big 3 for the GenNext players, especially against the top ones like Zverev and Tsitsipas.
 
these stats also show how the prime age in tennis has gone up

as well as the effect of the longer duration of the careers.
 
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Backspin1183 said:
Surprising stats because Nadal has been the toughest one of the big 3 for the GenNext players, especially against the top ones like Zverev and Tsitsipas.
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these are pretty big stats, and it just doesn't have enough impact on them (yet) to outweigh his early blooming.
 
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beard said:
But, Federer and Djokovic (and Nadal is close) are better against younger players than the older ones, so nowadays age excuses are just excuses. For Federer thru his carrier was better to play against younger players. He raised overall winning percentage thru his carrier too, so age excuse is again just excuse.
In other times being older was disadvantage but now percentages shows that its advantage.

So, stop age excuses, please! Nadal and Djokovic are "old" too... Remember that too Fedestrians...
Click to expand...
His age was never an advantage vs Djokovic or Nadal, 2 fellow peak ATG younger than him while he was past his very best.
 
Total winning percentage --> winning percentage against younger

active players:

Nadal 83.04 --> 82.82 (-)
Djokovic 82.68 --> 87.86 (+)
Federer 82.05 --> 83.33 (+)
Murray 77.63 --> 75.69 (-)
Del Potro 71.64 --> 80.33 (+)
Raonic 68.58 --> 74.44 (+)
Nishikori 68.10 --> 80.00 (+)
Tsonga 67.93 --> 63.71 (-)
Ferrer 66.07 --> 67.50 (+)
Zverev 65.99 --> 83.30 (+)
Berdych 65.33 --> 65.26 (-)
Cilic 65.24 --> 74.14 (+)
Thiem 64.06 --> 74.55 (+)
Monfils 63.99 --> 66.80 (+)
Wawrinka 63.26 --> 66.20 (+)
Gasquet 63.19 --> 65.41 (+)

12 of the best 16 have a higher winning % against younger opponents.
 
Lew II said:
Djokovic and Federer are the first Open Era ATGs to have a higher winning percentage against younger players than they do against older players. Nadal is also close.

vs older / vs younger

Connors 86.33 / 78.33
Borg 83.83 / 75.00
McEnroe 84.63 / 78.00
Lendl 82.04 / 80.89
Wilander 78.09 / 62.39
Becker 80.78 / 70.12
Edberg 80.00 / 69.23
Agassi 76.67 / 75.21
Sampras 78.12 / 76.44
Federer 80.29 / 83.33
Nadal 83.17 / 82.82
Murray 78.39 / 75.69
Djokovic 80.78 / 87.86
Click to expand...

My interpretation is that Federer massively improved his game in last 5 years. Regarding Djokovic, that is also a story about 2 players, a player prior to 2011 and a player after 2011.
 
KINGROGER said:
His age was never an advantage vs Djokovic or Nadal, 2 fellow peak ATG younger than him while he was past his very best.
Click to expand...

It was vs Djokovic in 2006 -2007, maybe even 2008. 2009-10 was about even. Vs Nadal he had the advantage in some mache like Wimbledon 2006
 
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quite impressive for Federer given that there are players younger than him who are actually good. Of course the record vs older is deflated by early career.
 
Lew II said:
Djokovic and Federer are the first Open Era ATGs to have a higher winning percentage against younger players than they do against older players. Nadal is also close.

vs older / vs younger

Connors 86.33 / 78.33
Borg 83.83 / 75.00
McEnroe 84.63 / 78.00
Lendl 82.04 / 80.89
Wilander 78.09 / 62.39
Becker 80.78 / 70.12
Edberg 80.00 / 69.23
Agassi 76.67 / 75.21
Sampras 78.12 / 76.44
Federer 80.29 / 83.33
Nadal 83.17 / 82.82
Murray 78.39 / 75.69
Djokovic 80.78 / 87.86
Click to expand...

jokowitch has higher % in younger because there's no good player lurking around chasing him . clearly an weak era evidence .
 
Lew II said:
Total winning percentage --> winning percentage against younger

active players:

Nadal 83.04 --> 82.82 (-)
Djokovic 82.68 --> 87.86 (+)
Federer 82.05 --> 83.33 (+)
Murray 77.63 --> 75.69 (-)
Del Potro 71.64 --> 80.33 (+)
Raonic 68.58 --> 74.44 (+)
Nishikori 68.10 --> 80.00 (+)
Tsonga 67.93 --> 63.71 (-)
Ferrer 66.07 --> 67.50 (+)
Zverev 65.99 --> 83.30 (+)
Berdych 65.33 --> 65.26 (-)
Cilic 65.24 --> 74.14 (+)
Thiem 64.06 --> 74.55 (+)
Monfils 63.99 --> 66.80 (+)
Wawrinka 63.26 --> 66.20 (+)
Gasquet 63.19 --> 65.41 (+)

12 of the best 16 have a higher winning % against younger opponents.
Click to expand...
Some of these numbers are insane. Djokovic with almost 88% matches won against younger players? How many of his matches have been against younger players because that's massively above his overall win %. And Nishi with a 12 point swing! Zverev makes sense because he's an early bloomer and almost everyone younger than him hasn't fully developed yet, but Nishikori will be 30 this year!
 
Lew II said:
As you can see in post #21 it's not just Djokovic. The whole tour is peaking at late age.
Click to expand...

still waiting for Nishikori, Raonic, Dimitrov gen to peak....oh wait....
or maybe its time you accept late 89 (starting from Nishi) to 95 just plain sucks.
 
Lew II said:
Djokovic and Federer are the first Open Era ATGs to have a higher winning percentage against younger players than they do against older players. Nadal is also close.

vs older / vs younger

Connors 86.33 / 78.33
Borg 83.83 / 75.00
McEnroe 84.63 / 78.00
Lendl 82.04 / 80.89
Wilander 78.09 / 62.39
Becker 80.78 / 70.12
Edberg 80.00 / 69.23
Agassi 76.67 / 75.21
Sampras 78.12 / 76.44
Federer 80.29 / 83.33
Nadal 83.17 / 82.82
Murray 78.39 / 75.69
Djokovic 80.78 / 87.86
Click to expand...

Interesting. The shift is obvious in Agassi and Sampras already.
 
Sorry I keep posting in a row but I'm actually impressed with this information.

Eg when people say "Connors made the SF at 39 so that shows the competition didn't get tougher", of course an ATG is still competitive a few years later. But you have to look at the overall trend, and it shows that it got tougher overall.
 
Towser83 said:
It was vs Djokovic in 2006 -2007, maybe even 2008. 2009-10 was about even. Bs Nadal he had the advantage in some mache like Wimbledon 2006
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Yeah Djokovic til early 2007 Nadal.. pretty much never regarding his style.

They’ve had the age advantage from... 2011 to present? 8-9 years and counting.
 
KINGROGER said:
Federer is far better than both on HC and grass.
Click to expand...
How is Fed far better than Novak on hard? He has only one slam more and had 6 years more to accomplish that. Novak is because of that practically better and after he wins one more slam, which is almost inevitable, and he will be better officially...
 
Lew II said:
Djokovic and Federer are the first Open Era ATGs to have a higher winning percentage against younger players than they do against older players. Nadal is also close.

vs older / vs younger

Connors 86.33 / 78.33
Borg 83.83 / 75.00
McEnroe 84.63 / 78.00
Lendl 82.04 / 80.89
Wilander 78.09 / 62.39
Becker 80.78 / 70.12
Edberg 80.00 / 69.23
Agassi 76.67 / 75.21
Sampras 78.12 / 76.44
Federer 80.29 / 83.33
Nadal 83.17 / 82.82
Murray 78.39 / 75.69
Djokovic 80.78 / 87.86
Click to expand...
to me it shows that big3 are the top three
 
Lew II said:
As you can see in post #21 it's not just Djokovic. The whole tour is peaking at late age.
Click to expand...

it's not about peaking late .
there's no current GS winner below 30 and that is a serious concern . there's no serious competition since 7/8 years . AKA #weakera
 
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