TheFifthSet
Legend
It's a shame that we don't go off of taste, bc Hardee's CLEARS
I’ll never understand the appeal of pickles. Vile ingredient.
The rest of it looks great, I would just ask them to omit pickles.
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Djokovic at AO vs Federer at Wimbledon
- Thread starter Berrettini_Fan
- Start date
I’ll never understand the appeal of pickles. Vile ingredient.
The rest of it looks great, I would just ask them to omit pickles.
TheFifthSet
Legend
I’ve said this before but ‘13 would look even more impressive (perhaps misleadingly, but still) if you traded Wawa for just another 4th round opponent. He only got broken once in the six other matches, against very good return-game players (Ferrer, Berdych, Murray). A cautionary tale on the limitations of single- tournament stats (see: 03 AO, Agassi).
Agreed it was a very tough title run.
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Subway Tennis
G.O.A.T.
Roger Peakerer for me.
Roger at the height of his powers was unbeatable on grass.
I can’t think of anyone except Nadal, Berdych absolutely redlining and maybe 1 or 2 other guys from other eras who would have been able to hang with a twenty-something Roger GOATerer on grass.
The fact that he was damn near forty and still holding match points in a Wimbledon final tells you how deadly he was at his pet major even after his prime and winning streak.
Much more prone to upsets on grass too, which makes Federer’s longer unbroken title streak a pretty heavily weighted advantage to Fed for me.
Roger at the height of his powers was unbeatable on grass.
I can’t think of anyone except Nadal, Berdych absolutely redlining and maybe 1 or 2 other guys from other eras who would have been able to hang with a twenty-something Roger GOATerer on grass.
The fact that he was damn near forty and still holding match points in a Wimbledon final tells you how deadly he was at his pet major even after his prime and winning streak.
Much more prone to upsets on grass too, which makes Federer’s longer unbroken title streak a pretty heavily weighted advantage to Fed for me.
Tennfan123
Legend
Who was better when both guys won so many titles, I’d go with the greater peak.
So, Federer.
So, Federer.
Hitman
Bionic Poster
Yes it is. And no it has nothing to do with being a Djokovic fan. I have always had this view point regardless of who was at the top. So no. I do not agree with jumping through hoops to explain why a guy won less. If you can't it was because you couldn't. I gave Federer the nod over Sampras at Wimbledon for the very same reason. So agree to disagree on this. You are better off telling this to someone who sees it your way. I do not.
Angrybirdstar
Semi-Pro
MichaelNadal
Bionic Poster
They add another layer of freshness and a zing that I love
objection_
Semi-Pro
Could be secret Sinner fans and if Sinner = Berdych 10.0, then they are implying that Sinner would wipe the floor with peakerer. And in term, because fedr defeated peakovic at Wim 12, Sinner > Peakovic
TheFifthSet
Legend
Hah. The return itself could be a sieve at times but Berd had a pretty good return game in his prime. 26% RGW from 2010-2015.
He obviously has the weakest return game of the three listed players by a huge margin, because the other two had outstanding return games.
RaulRamirez
Legend
I, occasionally, like a sour deli pickle on the side, but I've never enjoyed it as a topping on anything
To bring this back to the main topic, my guess is that NYC pickles are better than those from Melbourne.
Subway Tennis
G.O.A.T.
I think that is a pre-requisite for posting here
Racquet_smash
Professional
That was a fairly bad mistake tough. The video challenge evidence got removed but i think the ball hit the line very cleanly.
roysid
Legend
The video evidence wasn't in this clip but was shown later after the game. And surprisingly the chair umpire having the best view didn't overrule.
Dominate at most number of hamburger sold, not the best or tastiest hamburger. McDonald is a low quality fast food and cheap(affordable) typical family will visit there more often than the high quality hamburger place like Hardees. Just like Djokovic, quantity is on his side because of the weak competition. The greater the depth and strength of the competition(quality), the harder to win or produce high quantity. Djokovic(and Court) is an equivalent to McDonald in hast food hamburger.
Everything we discuss here is subjective. To me number alone means squat without context. You want to look at numbers and draw a conclusion, go ahead. Who to say your opinion is valid and the others are not? LOL. We're not living in the country east of China.
My opinion Federer was better and had a higher ceiling than Djokovic at their respective pet slam. He made 7 straight Wimbledon finals, 5 straight titles, 40 consecutive match wins.
Angrybirdstar
Semi-Pro
his 1st return stats on TA are literally Raonic tier and he lost to Fish and Gulbis and Cilic and Simon in his oh so godly Wimbledon prime
i'm sobbing over here
i fear TTW is late to the game of ensuring my fulfillment of that prerequisiteI think that is a pre-requisite for posting here
TheFifthSet
Legend
Well thankfully the tournament took place on HC where Berdych posted plenty good return stats
In that specific season he was 13th in 1st serve return points won on HC, 10th in overall return games won. He was Top 10 in HC rgw four of those six years prime years.
Not calling him Djokorray here but he had a fine return game for a time. And even if you wanna omit him Djokovic still whitewashed Ferrer and Murray, two players with superb return games.
Hitman
Bionic Poster
You speak about Djokovic inflating his numbers like some objective fact. No. It is your opinion and one I do not agree with, but one many others who thought it was their divine right that their fav ended up as GOAT do, so please talk about that with the rest of the groupies. Not to me thanks.
He won more because he was the best IMO. History remembers the winners. How many people complain about Laver winning a CYGS in his 30s? None. This weak era talk is because is in the eyes of many Fedal fans the wrong guy won the GOAT slam race. Anyways I am done with this thread.
Racquet_smash
Professional
As i said the video on youtube got removed, but i remember the ball hitting almost the whole line from hawkeye.
RS
Bionic Poster
Why not sneak AO 2020 in there. After all the forum put it over the famous AO 03 QF.
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
RS
Bionic Poster
lol I won't go there but I had a thread on it and it took up a discussion a few times you can look for I won't bump them
ghostofMecir
Legend
In their best extended stretches they were about the same and almost impossible to beat convincingly. Federer‘s lowest dominance ratio from 2003-2019 was .90, which is absurd.
Dominance ratio:
Federer, 2003-2019, 1.52
Djokovic, 2008-2024, 1.44
Dominance ratios under 1.0
Federer: 4 (.90, .91, .91, .96)
Djokovic: 4 (.59, .64, .92, .99)
Total points won:
Djokovic, 2008-2024: 56.0%, 101 matches played
Federer, 2003–2019: 55.8%, 106 matches played
Dominance ratio:
Federer, 2003-2019, 1.52
Djokovic, 2008-2024, 1.44
Dominance ratios under 1.0
Federer: 4 (.90, .91, .91, .96)
Djokovic: 4 (.59, .64, .92, .99)
Total points won:
Djokovic, 2008-2024: 56.0%, 101 matches played
Federer, 2003–2019: 55.8%, 106 matches played
RS
Bionic Poster
Even?
Angrybirdstar
Semi-Pro
the Wimbly comment was about the idea that prime Federer on grass would be challenged by Berdych of all peopleWell thankfully the tournament took place on HC where Berdych posted plenty good return stats
vs top 20 gap though. e.g. from Miami '10-'15, w/ min 1400 return pts, he was #35/71 for HC 1st return %, right ahead of Donald Young and Jerzy Janowicz and well behind every relevant returner. he was #30/73 (w/ min 220 pts) for HC rgw %. i feel like he was a pretty clear case of statpadding against worse baseliners and getting exposed by big servers or better/comparable baseliners (certainly so if one makes that sort of argument to any extent for Nadal on return!), and so it's quite misleading to point to Berdych's return game to hype up a particular Djokovic performance/run (in their HC matchups Djokovic held 90.8% of the time!)
TheFifthSet
Legend
Hence my cheeky reply
Perhaps not qualifying my original statement with the disclaimer that Berd is by far the worst of the three may have been misleading (there’s a chasm between those two and Berd on the returning front, should go without saying), but his inclusion with that caveat out of the way ain’t so scoff-worthy.
Ferrer and Murray do most of the carrying (and Djokovic blanked them over 7 sets), but Berdych is a perfectly fine “third-best” returner (or return-game player but let’s just use “returner” as the shorthand which…I just devoted 20 words to, ironic) of that tournament.
Anyway, the “hyping” came with the implied point that his gaudy single-tournament stats (in the hypothetical) could have led to their own misleading conclusions. If you swap Wawrinka with an average 4th round opponent and he rampages, it goes down around these parts as one of the GOAT tournaments (which, given the Wawrinka performance, it wasn’t). So, not much of a hype-job, if anything it could be a pipeline to further Djokoskepticism.
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duaneeo
Legend
He was 23 at 2011 AO. No NextGen finalist.
He was 24 at 2012 AO. No NextGen finalist.
He was 25 at 2013 AO. No NextGen finalist.
He was 27 at 2015 AO. No NextGen finalist.
He was 28 at 2016 AO. No NextGen finalist.
He was 31 at 2019 AO. Still no NextGen finalist.
As often said, strong NextGens end the slam runs of declined PastGens. Unlike Federer at Wimbledon, Djokovic at the AO never had that problem.
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
Yea Djokovic at 19-22 was busy playing 2 ATGs 35 times who were 20-23 and 25-28. What ATGs did Federer face at the same age? He played Sampras once when he was 30 and played Agassi 6 times, when he was over 30 in 5 of those matches.
So this is pretty bogus expecting him to not only play those guys 35 times when he was a youngster and still developing but to be playing a younger ATG at 23, especially when Nadal is just 11 months older and he had Murray who is only a week older. Any excuse for him solidly surpassing Federer when it's all said and done is better than no excuse.
duaneeo
Legend
lol, try sticking to the topic of the thread...which is Djokovic at the AO vs Federer at WB. Federer faced Nadal/Djokovic at Wimbledon a combined nine times, while Djokovic faced Nadal/Federer at the AO a combined seven times. Heck, Federer faced Nadal at the AO twice the number of times Nole did at the AO, so you can spare everyone the "Nole-was-busy-playing-2-ATGs" crap.
Hitman
Bionic Poster
Federer faced Djokodal 4 times each. 8 times combined. So the difference is 1..
Bride of Alcaraz
Semi-Pro
In a big3 comparison, Djokovic's titles aren't worth much after 2009, because 2009 was the end of Nadal-Federer's prime.
Nadal's knees/mobility were never the same after 2009 AO
That is why Djokovic's slam record will never be taken seriously, in comparison to Nadal/Federer!
Djokovic won most of his slams and most of his titles by waiting for the demise of the BEST.
Nadal's knees/mobility were never the same after 2009 AO
That is why Djokovic's slam record will never be taken seriously, in comparison to Nadal/Federer!
Djokovic won most of his slams and most of his titles by waiting for the demise of the BEST.
GabeT
G.O.A.T.
Oh, look what we have hereIn a big3 comparison, Djokovic's titles aren't worth much after 2009, because 2009 was the end of Nadal-Federer's prime.
Nadal's knees/mobility were never the same after 2009 AO
That is why Djokovic's slam record will never be taken seriously, in comparison to Nadal/Federer!
Djokovic won most of his slams and most of his titles by waiting for the demise of the BEST.
I disagree. More doesn't mean he's the best. Just like Court 11 AO titles doesn't means she's the best at this slam.
It's not about the complaint about Laver's CYGS, but when someone holds that standard against the modern players, people will speak up. His CYGS was played only on 2 surfaces, and the AO didn't have a full 128-men draw. Despite winning 4 in 1969, historians say Laver was a better player of himself in the early years(e.g. 1967)
No it's not. Past prime Djokovic shouldn't win that much in his 30's, let alone even having better stats and conversion rate than he had in his peak/prime years. The NextGen are the blame for their failure. The entire 90's born managed to win only 2 slams is testament of weak competition.
duaneeo
Legend
Correct. Still, the poster was talking about Nole facing 2 ATGs. The reality is that Federer faced Nadal more times at WB and the AO than Djokovic faced Nadal at the AO. Djokodal won the AO in 2008/2009, yet these two ATG contemporaries would only meet there twice during the next decade.
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
The excuses are getting creative and you have no rebuttal which is why you don't want to delve into that topic of Federer having pretty much free reign from 19-24, with ATGs who were over a decade older and one who was well over the hill. He only played them a handful of times and it's no comparison to what Djokovic had in the beginning of his career.
As already pointed out it's 7 times at the AO that Djokovic played Fedal and 8 times at Wimbledon that Federer played Djokovic and Nadal, so it's just 1 match. What a huge difference, and he played Federer and Nadal 35 times overall in Slams which is the most out of the 3.
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