Djokovic can already become the GOAT in the next slam
- Thread starter Lew II
- Start date
Towny
Hall of Fame
That he can win more than 20 slams?
Sport
Legend
To be the overall GOAT, Djokovic needs to win 12 Roland Garros and 9 Wimbledon titles. Otherwise, he is just the hard court GOAT.
Too easy to win the Grand Slam race when 2 of 4 Grand Slams are on hard courts and you are a hard court specialist (in the sense of hard courts being your more succesful court).
If 2 of 4 Grand Slams were on grass, Federer could already have 23 Grand Slams or more.
If 2 of 4 Grand Slams were on clay, Nadal could have 30 Grand Slams.
The Grand Slam count is irrelevant. There will never be an overall GOAT. The Grand Slam count only indicates which player is greater on hard courts, not which player is greater overall.
Lew II
Legend
hardcourt is a more important surface
Sport
Legend
For Djokovic fans, because Djokovic is a hard court specialist (in the sense of hard court being his best court).
If there were 2 Grand Slams on clay, or 2 Grand Slams on grass, you would be the first to complain.
UnforcedTerror
Rookie
It's quite the opposite of what's bolded because everyone excels on hardcourts.
Do you really think Nadal chose the harder way? Lol.
If 2 of 4 Grand Slams were on clay, Nadal would be a hardcourt specialist since it would be easier to win on hardcourts compared to clay.
serveandvolley_
Rookie
You are a Nadal fan I suppose?
Djokovic will be tied overall GOAT when he wins 20 slams and overall GOAT when he wins 21, nothing more to the equation.
All of these players started playing tennis knowing there were 2 hard court grand slams, 1 grass and 1 clay... the AO or USO was not added as a Grand Slam half way through Djokovic's career.
Therefore it is up to them to be a specialist on whatever surface suits them. And Rafa's is clay, finished.
Sport
Legend
Based on what? There is no argument to put Djokovic as the GOAT.
H2H overall? Roddick leads overall Djokovic 5-4, so he would be the GOAT according to that criterion.
H2H in Grand Slams? Nadal leads Djokovic 9-6 in Grand Slams (inclduing 2-1 at the US Open), so he would be the GOAT according to that criterion.
NCYGS? Laver made the CYGS twice, not only once, so he would be the GOAT according to that criterion.
Sport
Legend
False. Some players play substantially better on grass or clay than hard courts.
Why does Federer have "only" 5 US Open and 8 Wimbledon titles? If there were 2 Grand Slams on grass, he could have already 23 Grand Slams.
Why does Nadal have 1 Australian Open and 11 Roland Garros titles? If there were 2 Grand Slams on clay. Nadal could have already 30 Grand Slams.
The Grand Slam count is irrelevant, since 2 of 4 Grand Slams are on hard courts. The Grand Slam record doesn't indicate which player is greater overall, but which player is greater on hard courts.
Lew II
Legend
For the world, not for Djokovic fans.
The majority of tournaments at all levels are on hardcourt, and hardcourt is the most neutral surface game wise.
TheAssassin
Legend
Nah. A 2019 CYGS would make it debatable but that one is not happening.
Sport
Legend
Nope. There will never be a tennis GOAT.
The Grand Slam count is irrelevant, since 2 of 4 Grand Slams are on hard courts. The Grand Slam record doesn't indicate which player is greater overall, but which player is greater on hard courts.
If there were 2 Grand Slams on clay. Nadal could have already 30 Grand Slams. If there were 2 Grand Slams on grass, he could have already 23 Grand Slams.
The Grand Slam count would only be relevant if 33% of Grand Slams were on clay, 33% were on hard courts, and 33% were on grass. Otherwise, it just indicates which player is greater on hard courts not overall.
Sport
Legend
There is no such thing as a "neutral" surface. Hard court suits Djokovic's game more than Federer's or Nadal's one.
serveandvolley_
Rookie
Sure, of course, it doesn't. I bet if there was no such thing as Roger Federer and Nadal held the record of 17 slams, I wonder what that would indicate.
Benjamin Rio
Professional
It's not probably going to happen. But he's got a chance.
serveandvolley_
Rookie
I see you didn't quote the main point of my post.
Nadal knew there were 2 hard court slams, nobody else's fault. Djokovic will be GOAT at 21.
What would you classify Becker as?
Lew II
Legend
Look, when Nadal was born clay already had only 1 slam tournament.
He decided to become specialist of a less important surface, therefore with less competition, because this is what suited his abilites.
With your logic otherwise we could say that if tennis was about who generates the most spin or picks his butt the most, Nadal would be the GOAT.
Yeah doing something Rafa and roger couldn't, twice during their careers, no big deal
serveandvolley_
Rookie
With his logic, if Federer didn't exist and Nadal held the record, it would indicate that Nadal is truly a hard court specialist, ah funny.
Benjamin Rio
Professional
That's why Nadal can't be considered the GOAT. King of clay with amazing results elsewhere surely. The other 2 are better tennis players Outdoor indoors grass hard court etc etc
It is what it is. If there were more clay slams or grass slams the rest of the trour players would be better on those surfaces hence Nadal might not be as dominant
Benjamin Rio
Professional
If you 'd listen to Nadal and his fans, the tour would only be played outdoor in windy conditions on clay. That's why they don't want to take into account the world tour finals.
-NN-
G.O.A.T.
Nothing. He'd be the greatest sportsperson of all-time.
serveandvolley_
Rookie
RF-18
G.O.A.T.
Roddick is not Djokovic main rival. Federer, Nadal and Murray is.
Nice Cherry picking, h2h in slams? H2h overall, 28-25 Djokovic. If you wanna cherry pick slams, Djokovic leads the h2h over Nadal on HC and grass in Grand slams. Being better on 2 surfaces > Being better on one surface. Sorry to tell ya that mate.
Tennis_Hands
Bionic Poster
I see no controversy in the OP's statement.
After all even now a lot of people consider him things that he isn't for their personal reasons.
I don’t see why winning one more Major is worse than that.
After all even now a lot of people consider him things that he isn't for their personal reasons.
I don’t see why winning one more Major is worse than that.
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Love how AO Final has brought enlightenment to Nadal fans. Before the final they were already looking at 19 slams by FO, one short of Federer .. possible GOAT ....
And now ... there will never be an overall GOAT .... ROFL
The Fedfather
Hall of Fame
He'd need to prove that winning just 1 RG by beating Nadal (who we've no clue how he's going to play) in the final is a greater achievement than winning 5 Slams, being ranked #1 for a year, and winning the WTF.
Im(moral) Winner
G.O.A.T.
Djokovic is already GOAT in ABCD's eyes. That's all that matters.
tennisaddict
Bionic Poster
Why does Sjokovic need to win FO ? He is already GOAT of Miami, which is the real deal .
Djokovic_is_the_best#1
Legend
I agree that would be some super human achievement. I think that achievement would inspire him further to do the CYGS too. He won’t let up like he did last time. He’s learned from the past and he’s peaking better in slams now!
If Djoko wins the FO he could become the GOAT very soon. He’s be above nadal then for sure and breathing down feds neck!
If Djoko wins the FO he could become the GOAT very soon. He’s be above nadal then for sure and breathing down feds neck!
D
Deleted member 764118
Guest
If he wins CYGS then I will declare him GOAT.
For all that’s worth
For all that’s worth
GabeT
Legend
So in your definition to be a GOAT you need to be GOAT of all the most important tournaments individually?
RF-18
G.O.A.T.
Undisputed GOAT for sure.
True Fanerer
G.O.A.T.
I guess it would be cool if he did it. Won't be the same Nadal that shut Federer down twice when he does it, so yeah there's that....
Slam court surfaces are what they are. Players know this and all need to adapt to those surfaces in order to win. Of the top three, Nadal's performance in slams is more lopsided as to surface, with 11 of his 17 on clay. Federer and Novak are similar in their slam court surface success. Overall, I would rate Novak over Roger on clay, Roger on grass and about even on hard, with Nadal probably the clay GOAT. As for the pre open era players post 1950 I would rate Rosewall, Laver, then Gonzalez as the all court surface great players.
tennisaddict
Bionic Poster
Slam surfaces are what they are is not a convincing argument
Surfaces have been changed at USO and AO not too long ago.
Nadal would have whipped everyone’s rear if there had been 2 clay slams and you all know it
Nadal is the GOAT for me objectively speaking taking into account how he was the big daddy of all in big matches
Surfaces have been changed at USO and AO not too long ago.
Nadal would have whipped everyone’s rear if there had been 2 clay slams and you all know it
Nadal is the GOAT for me objectively speaking taking into account how he was the big daddy of all in big matches
Benjamin Rio
Professional
Every single tournaments should be played on clay world tour finals included. Like this Nadal would the undisputed GOAT.
ScottleeSV
Professional
He would still have 4/5 more grand slams left to prove.
ChaelAZ
Legend
No.
That he can get another few GS titles to pass Nadal, and several GS titles to pass Fed.
uscwang
Hall of Fame
I hope Novak remains motivated. Beating Nadal in RG, winning 4 GS in a row, neither are new for Novak. He is setting his goal higher than that.
Be patient and enjoy the next several years when Novak will keep improving himself in response to challenges from players 10 years younger.
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tennisfan2015
Hall of Fame
I usually like your posts. But this, this.......this is one huge phat L O L.
tennisfan2015
Hall of Fame
What if he wins 5 or maybe 6 in a row? What then?
tennisfan2015
Hall of Fame
It would be interesting to see J. Owens run on mondo
Eren
Professional
The answer has to be that Djokovic even with 16 Slams is at least on par with Fed if he does that.
Arguably greater.