Djokovic can already become the GOAT in the next slam

uscwang

Hall of Fame
#51
I usually like your posts. But this, this.......this is one huge phat L O L. :)
Exactly, those Spaniards.
If Serbians were like them, they would have argued only 1 slam played in the southern hemisphere, but 3 in the northern. Not fair. If 2 GS were played down under, Novak would have won many more. :-D
 
#52
To be the overall GOAT, Djokovic needs to win 12 Roland Garros and 9 Wimbledon titles. Otherwise, he is just the hard court GOAT.

Too easy to win the Grand Slam race when 2 of 4 Grand Slams are on hard courts and you are a hard court specialist (in the sense of hard courts being your more succesful court).

If 2 of 4 Grand Slams were on grass, Federer could already have 23 Grand Slams or more.

If 2 of 4 Grand Slams were on clay, Nadal could have 30 Grand Slams.

The Grand Slam count is irrelevant. There will never be an overall GOAT. The Grand Slam count only indicates which player is greater on hard courts, not which player is greater overall.
So Federer had it hardest according to your logic right? 1 Grass Slam and 0 Masters 1000 series vs. 1 Clay Slam and three Masters 1000.
 
#53
Exactly, those Spaniards.
If Serbians were like them, they would have argued only 1 slam played in the southern hemisphere, but 3 in the northern. Not fair. If 2 GS were played down under, Novak would have won many more. :-D
Oh, is he Spanish? I rarely look to the left to see who writes what... Noticed him as I liked De Niro. Considering Australia is a continent we should have min. 3 GS. Would that change anything for Djok? :)
 

tudwell

Hall of Fame
#57
Undisputed GOAT for sure.
Nah. It's just too difficult to compare his achievements with those of the likes of Laver, Gonzales, or Tilden. And even compared to Fed there would be arguments (Fed's incredible 4-year period of dominance, greater slam consistency, greater longevity so far, etc.).

He would have needed to dominate way more in his 20s to have a case for being the truly undisputed GOAT. Though if he wins the French and thereby gets another four in a row, I'll absolutely have him in that top tier of all-time greats.
 
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#61
To be the overall GOAT, Djokovic needs to win 12 Roland Garros and 9 Wimbledon titles. Otherwise, he is just the hard court GOAT.

Too easy to win the Grand Slam race when 2 of 4 Grand Slams are on hard courts and you are a hard court specialist (in the sense of hard courts being your more succesful court).

If 2 of 4 Grand Slams were on grass, Federer could already have 23 Grand Slams or more.

If 2 of 4 Grand Slams were on clay, Nadal could have 30 Grand Slams.

The Grand Slam count is irrelevant. There will never be an overall GOAT. The Grand Slam count only indicates which player is greater on hard courts, not which player is greater overall.
This is not an anti-Rafa post, as I love the guy. But aren't you the same poster who would constantly say that it's all about the slam count, that everything else are just tiebreakers? If not you, then I apologize.
 
#62
If he completes his second NCYGS beating Nadal in the final of Roland Garros wouldn't he be the GOAT in many people's eyes?

What would he have left to prove, really?
Essentially, I see three GOATs, but the best of the best? Would this do it? I'm torn, and would still have to see how the rest of their careers play out. It would be one heckuva accomplishment, though!
 
#63
I think Djokovic could do with 17/18 slams at least and possibly a WTF again to go past Fed or equal him. With that 2nd RG. I think you can be the best of your era but not of all time.
 
#69
If he completes his second NCYGS beating Nadal in the final of Roland Garros wouldn't he be the GOAT in many people's eyes?

What would he have left to prove, really?
Probably a minority opinion at this point but with a double NCYGS the slam gap does get neutralized. Would stand alone in the open era men's singles.
 
#72
Was thinking Djokovic looks good for the following records by the end of his career: weeks and years #1, Masters, YECs, MAYBE titles... out of the Big Three.
If he wraps up the second NCYGS, YEC and no. 1 all this year, the case against him gets weaker and weaker. Also to retain no. 1 this year he might have to defend both W and USO? Though it depends how much of his lead swells by then.
 
#73
If he wraps up the second NCYGS, YEC and no. 1 all this year, the case against him gets weaker and weaker. Also to retain no. 1 this year he might have to defend both W and USO? Though it depends how much of his lead swells by then.

I see Nadal as the only real threat for YE#1. Fast start by both with 2000 and 1200 rankings points. Doubt Federer will feature, neither Zverev, nor anyone else.

(Oh and whatever points Djokovic picked up from Qatar).
 

ABCD

Hall of Fame
#74
Based on what? There is no argument to put Djokovic as the GOAT.

H2H overall? Roddick leads overall Djokovic 5-4, so he would be the GOAT according to that criterion.

H2H in Grand Slams? Nadal leads Djokovic 9-6 in Grand Slams (inclduing 2-1 at the US Open), so he would be the GOAT according to that criterion.

NCYGS? Laver made the CYGS twice, not only once, so he would be the GOAT according to that criterion.
 

Enceladus

Hall of Fame
#77
Nope. There will never be a tennis GOAT.

The Grand Slam count is irrelevant, since 2 of 4 Grand Slams are on hard courts. The Grand Slam record doesn't indicate which player is greater overall, but which player is greater on hard courts.

If there were 2 Grand Slams on clay. Nadal could have already 30 Grand Slams. If there were 2 Grand Slams on grass, he could have already 23 Grand Slams.

The Grand Slam count would only be relevant if 33% of Grand Slams were on clay, 33% were on hard courts, and 33% were on grass. Otherwise, it just indicates which player is greater on hard courts not overall.
The current layout of surfaces on the GS tournaments is fair. Two GS tournaments take place on the natural surface (clay, grass), the remaining two on the artificial surface (hard).
 

DSH

Hall of Fame
#78
if djokovic wins the calendar grand slam exactly 50 years after laver milestone, he will be the guts (greatest until this time).
 
#80
Was thinking Djokovic looks good for the following records by the end of his career: weeks and years #1, Masters, YECs, MAYBE titles... out of the Big Three.
Years #1 looks like he'll get to 6 or 7, he has a decent shot at weeks, yes to Masters, YEC, possibly 6 or 7 as well...and slams will be close.
 
#83
Christ, guys. I love Djokovic as much as anyone, but anything short of a CYGS in 2019 is going to keep Federer as the GOAT. Will another RG and NCYGS do wonders for him? Of course! But will he be able to argue that he's on par with someone that has 1.3 times as many slams as he does? No.

Even so, a 3 slam year wouldn't make him the GOAT by the end of 2019 (17 slams) but it would certainly bode well for him to do so over the next few years.

For us to discuss Fed vs. Djokovic, Novak needs to get a CYGS and maybe that could help make up a 2 slam deficit. No more. In almost all other scenarios, Djokovic needs to be within 1 slam of Roger. 19 to Fed's 20 is debatable, especially if he were to surpass weeks at #1 and at least equalize WTF titles.

So no. Djokovic winning RG for a second time isn't going to magically catapult him into first place.
 
#86
This is not an anti-Rafa post, as I love the guy. But aren't you the same poster who would constantly say that it's all about the slam count, that everything else are just tiebreakers? If not you, then I apologize.
He is. He posted this just last week in another thread. Sport is a good poster, but he has a tendency to flip flop when it suits Nadal.

Player A, of course. 1>>>> 0.

Player B is a pathetic loser in the big stage. Also, your scenario is ridiculous even if hypothetical. Hypothetical scenarios must be plausible as well. No player is going to reach 60 Grand Slam finals ever, let alone losing all of them.

The number of Grand Slams is the most relevant all-time great criterion. Other criteria are just tie-breakers in case two players are tied in Grand Slams.

1 >>> 0.
 
#88
For Djokovic fans, because Djokovic is a hard court specialist (in the sense of hard court being his best court).

If there were 2 Grand Slams on clay, or 2 Grand Slams on grass, you would be the first to complain.
What About Federer? He has more HC Slams than his favorite Grass. So is he a HC god or grass god? In fact he has more HC slams than Djoker. Should we exclude all HC slam of Fed since that is not his most favorite surface compared to 2 other GOATS?
 

TMF

Talk Tennis Guru
#90
Based on what? There is no argument to put Djokovic as the GOAT.

H2H overall? Roddick leads overall Djokovic 5-4, so he would be the GOAT according to that criterion.

H2H in Grand Slams? Nadal leads Djokovic 9-6 in Grand Slams (inclduing 2-1 at the US Open), so he would be the GOAT according to that criterion.

NCYGS? Laver made the CYGS twice, not only once, so he would be the GOAT according to that criterion.
I agree. Nole fans are the most unreasonable fan base. To say he's the goat now is pure fanaticism. I mean Nole just barely pass Sampras(some people still think it's still debatable), he's still has a lot of work to do to even qualify for goat debate, let along a goat now.
 
#93
Serbia already has a GOAT. His name is Nikola Tesla, the genius that everyone on earth should appreciate because of his contribution to society, AC electricity.
 
#94
If he completes his second NCYGS beating Nadal in the final of Roland Garros wouldn't he be the GOAT in many people's eyes?

What would he have left to prove, really?
He might in some people's eyes, but not everyone, and probably not most. Most people measure greatness, in any sport, by the total number of championships. If neither Djokovic nor Nadal surpass Federer, most will still consider Fed the best, ever.
 
#96
I will rephrase it a bit:

"He is the dark knight of tennis... The hero this game deserves, but not the one the fans need right now, so they will hate him for it, but eventually they will come to see the joy of witnessing the greatest feats by somebody in their own lifetime."
 
#97
Christ, guys. I love Djokovic as much as anyone, but anything short of a CYGS in 2019 is going to keep Federer as the GOAT. Will another RG and NCYGS do wonders for him? Of course! But will he be able to argue that he's on par with someone that has 1.3 times as many slams as he does? No.

Even so, a 3 slam year wouldn't make him the GOAT by the end of 2019 (17 slams) but it would certainly bode well for him to do so over the next few years.

For us to discuss Fed vs. Djokovic, Novak needs to get a CYGS and maybe that could help make up a 2 slam deficit. No more. In almost all other scenarios, Djokovic needs to be within 1 slam of Roger. 19 to Fed's 20 is debatable, especially if he were to surpass weeks at #1 and at least equalize WTF titles.

So no. Djokovic winning RG for a second time isn't going to magically catapult him into first place.
Actually as a Fed fan I am no longer sure of this. It was different vis a vis Nadal as H2H was the only thing he had over Fed. Djokovic is not a long way off from Fed's own weeks at no. 1, can get to a sixth year ending No.1. Now on top of this if you add a double NCYGS (as against 0 for Fed), it seems like overvaluing 4 slams. Maybe I can put the mark at 18 instead of 16 but I don't believe Novak has to tie Rog on 20 slams if he gets a second NCYGS. The slam tally as paramount was relevant when nobody went to the moon. Nole has been there once and if he does it a second time that would be just phenomenal. I would be glad too to have lived through an era when a male tennis player achieved it (since it would have been considered utterly impossible in the 90s) and I hope he does.
 
#98
Maybe I can put the mark at 18 instead of 16 but I don't believe Novak has to tie Rog on 20 slams if he gets a second NCYGS. The slam tally as paramount was relevant when nobody went to the moon. Nole has been there once and if he does it a second time that would be just phenomenal.
Please explain how Laver accomplished the CYGS twice and is still almost universally considered beneath Fed in the GOAT sweepstakes. But Novak going fpr the "NCYGS" twice (if he does it) nets him 16 slams, but he vaults over Fed??

Anxiously awaiting the explanation on this.
 
#99
Slam court surfaces are what they are. Players know this and all need to adapt to those surfaces in order to win. Of the top three, Nadal's performance in slams is more lopsided as to surface, with 11 of his 17 on clay. Federer and Novak are similar in their slam court surface success. Overall, I would rate Novak over Roger on clay, Roger on grass and about even on hard, with Nadal probably the clay GOAT. As for the pre open era players post 1950 I would rate Rosewall, Laver, then Gonzalez as the all court surface great players.
Is it really though?

Nadal has 11 of 17 on clay: 64%
Djoker has 10 of 15 on hard: 66%
 
Actually as a Fed fan I am no longer sure of this. It was different vis a vis Nadal as H2H was the only thing he had over Fed. Djokovic is not a long way off from Fed's own weeks at no. 1, can get to a sixth year ending No.1. Now on top of this if you add a double NCYGS (as against 0 for Fed), it seems like overvaluing 4 slams. Maybe I can put the mark at 18 instead of 16 but I don't believe Novak has to tie Rog on 20 slams if he gets a second NCYGS. The slam tally as paramount was relevant when nobody went to the moon. Nole has been there once and if he does it a second time that would be just phenomenal. I would be glad too to have lived through an era when a male tennis player achieved it (since it would have been considered utterly impossible in the 90s) and I hope he does.
Federer vs. Djokovic:

Slams: 20-15. Federer leads heavily.
YE#1: 5-5. Tied.
Weeks at #1: 310 - 236 Federer leads by 1.5 years.
Titles: 99-72 Federer. Huge lead.
Masters: 27-32. Lead for Djokovic.
YEC: 6-5. Federer leads.
Win% (Overall, HC, Clay, Grass, Carpet): (82%, 83%, 76%, 87%, 72%) - (83%, 84%, 79%, 83%, 71%)
Intangibles: Federer 3x5, Djokovic NCYGS, Djokovic Golden Masters.

Federer vs. Djokovic (CYGS 2019 + WTF + 5 Masters):

Slams: 20-18. Federer leads.
YE#1: 5-6. Djokovic leads.
Weeks at #1: 310 - 284 (+~26) Little difference, virtual tie.
Titles: 99-81 Federer. Still a huge lead.
Masters: 27-37. Big lead for Djokovic.
YEC: 6-6. Tie.
Win% (Overall, HC, Clay, Grass, Carpet): (82%, 83%, 76%, 87%, 72%) - (85%, 84%, 80%, 84%, 71%)
Intangibles: Federer 3x5, Djokovic NCYGS, Djokovic CYGS, Djokovic Golden Masters.

I suppose it just depends on how much you value the CYGS and Masters lead over 2 Slams and 18 other titles. I don't know how I'd react, but I think I'd be talking it down. If he gets within 1 of Roger, I'll start talking then, but until then I think Federer will stay the GOAT in my head.
 
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