Djokovic - can he become greater than Federer on two surfaces?
- Thread starter RF-18
- Start date
Right now I would put Federer slightly ahead on clay and Nole ahead on hard courts.
Hitman
Bionic Poster
What tips the scales for Federer on clay and Djokovic on hard courts for you?
RF-18
Talk Tennis Guru
PerilousPear
Professional
As of now, Fed has a prettier backhand on 3/3 surfaces. Still a long way to go for Nole.
Additional slam finals. Of course it can be argued otherwise since they are awfully close from each other on both surfaces.
Djokovic2011
Bionic Poster
Yeah, this was one of the things that occurred to me not long after the AO finished, how he's now the only player past or present with a good argument for being greater than Federer on 2/3 surfaces. I was actually gonna make a thread about it but didn't want to appear like I was rubbing it in Fed fan's faces lol.
I think after 2020 AO he clearly is:
-1 Slam, 3 Slam Finals and 9 Masters is better than 1 Slam, 4 Slam Finals and 6 Masters on clay. (And can be argued Nole wins 3/3 Master 1000 on clay. Federer 1/3.)
-11 Slam, 5 Slam Finals, 5 WTF and 25 Masters is better than 11 Slam, 3 Slam Finals, 6 WTF and 22 Masters on hard court.
Let alone better competition Nole played in his prime.
The real question is: is there a player that is better than Nole on 2/3 surfaces? I think you can maybe make a case for Borg, but not a solid one.
-1 Slam, 3 Slam Finals and 9 Masters is better than 1 Slam, 4 Slam Finals and 6 Masters on clay. (And can be argued Nole wins 3/3 Master 1000 on clay. Federer 1/3.)
-11 Slam, 5 Slam Finals, 5 WTF and 25 Masters is better than 11 Slam, 3 Slam Finals, 6 WTF and 22 Masters on hard court.
Let alone better competition Nole played in his prime.
The real question is: is there a player that is better than Nole on 2/3 surfaces? I think you can maybe make a case for Borg, but not a solid one.
Fiero425
Legend
Why do people keep forgetting the age disparity? Nole has plenty of time to catch up in the few categories Roger leads! What about the stats already in his favor even though Fed's over 5 years older? Nadal's more his contemporary, not Roger!
Djokodalerer31
Hall of Fame
Okay Lets See:
Monte Carlo Masters: Djokovic - 2, Federer - 0
Madrid Masters: Djokovic - 3 (all on traditional red clay), Federer - 2 (But one was played on some weird alien blue stuff nobody aside form Federer approved...and only one on true clay, how clay court tennis is supposed to be played)
Hamburg: Djokovic - 0, Federer - 4 (But this is before 2008, back when Djokovic was baby and it didn't even play like clay at all, more like slow hard courts...)
Rome: Djokovic - 4, Federer - 0 again! LOL
Clay Masters Series Overall: Djokovic - 9, Federer - 6...
Roland Garros: Both Tied At 1, With Federer reaching 5 finals as opposed to Djokovic, who reached 4
Overall Clay Court Titles (Small Included): Djokovic - 14, Federer - 11
Additional Point: Djokovic played against Nadal at Roland Garros and defeated him once in straight sets in 2015, and was dangerously close to winning in semis of 2013 as well...Federer didn't even edge Nadal to 5 sets in neither of 6 meetings he played and lost against him! And even got baggeled once in the final...
And knowing all the info above you still put Federer over Djokovic?! Seriously?! Because of one extra RG final played??! Duuuude...
I’ve seen Djokovic fans argue him ahead of Federer based on 2 extra slam finals >>>> 12 additional titles
By that logic, Federer is ahead on clay.
Djokovic ahead on clay because of 3 extra titles... HCs dead even despite Federer having 12 more titles
Djokodalerer31
Hall of Fame
So more masters titles, more overall titles, all 3 clay masters won against 2 (technically even only 1, since Madrid since 2009 took the same calendar bid as Hamburg up until 2008...technically Madrid 2009-onwards and Hamburg prior to 2009 is the same masters event...so it means that Federer only ever won 1 of the 3 possible calendar clay masters events...while Djokovic won them all and multiple times! LOL) The only thing, that Federer has over Djokovic is 2 extra match wins at Roland Garros 70 against 68 and one additional final played, 4 of which he blown to the same player anyway...) Djokovic beat Nadal in straight sets in 2015 and edged him to almost victory in 2013 (oh if not those famous choke overhead smash...we surely wouldn't have had this conversation by now...)...Federer in all 6 of their h2h meetintgs at RG (All of which he lost) he didn't even edged Nadal once to 5 sets!...And you say Djokovic isn't clearly better? LOL
RF-18
Talk Tennis Guru
Djokovic ahead on clay because of 3 extra titles... HCs dead even despite Federer having 12 more titles
I didn't base it one 3 extra titles.
Djokovic is overall the better clay courter. Won all clay masters multiple times (Federer doesn't even have a rome title, wich is historically a very big tournament, lacks an MC title aswell). Tied at RG, Fed has one more final though but that doesn't make up for 4 Rome titles..
Djokodalerer31
Hall of Fame
Not to mention Djokovic defeated Nadal on every big clay court tournament at least once! So its not like he played mugs in all those clay court finals too...and i would argue Murray is more dangerous opponent to have for a grand slam final, than Soderling anyway, so...
beard
Legend
Same logic, if question is who is better on grass, I could say Fed is better on fast grass, and Novak is better on slower grass...
About clay... just funny stuff that shows your level of objectivity ( non objectivity)...
Ok so Fed is ahead on grass and HC, Djokovic clay. Fair enough.
Fed has more slow grass titles (Wimbledon) and 10 fast Halle titles.Same logic, if question is who is better on grass, I could say Fed is better on fast grass, and Novak is better on slower grass...
About clay... just funny stuff that shows your level of objectivity ( non objectivity)...
djokovic is slightly ahead on clay due to solid wins over nadal in BO3 (06 Fed had to play BO5) and also weaker clay competition since 2014.
Not clearly, no. Just.
Give 2006 Fed as pathetic competition on clay as Nole had in 2015 and he would win a CYGS and all 3 clay masters.
some important statistical facts that no one has mentioned:
HC GS W%
RG W%
W W%
all tournaments W%
h2h
GS: nole 7-4
WTF: nole 3(+WO)-3, WTF F: 2(+WO)-0
Masters: No1e 8-6, MF No1e 1-0
MM: Fed 4-2
DC: fed 1-0
h2h on clay vs clay GOAT:
No1e: 7-17 (29,2%), 1-6 in RG (14,3%)
Fed: 2-14 (12,5%), 0-6 in RG (0%)
HC GS W%
Hard | % | W–L | |
|---|---|---|---|
| 1. | Novak Djokovic | 88.6 | 147–19 |
| 2. | Roger Federer | 86.8 | 191–29 |
RG W%
| Clay | % | W–L | |
|---|---|---|---|
| 1. | Rafael Nadal | 97.9 | 93–2 |
| 2. | Björn Borg | 92.6 | 63–5 |
| 3. | Mats Wilander | 83.9 | 47–9 |
| 4. | Novak Djokovic | 82.9 | 68–14 |
| 5. | Gustavo Kuerten | 81.8 | 36–8 |
| 6. | Jim Courier | 81.6 | 40–9 |
| 7. | / Ivan Lendl | 81.5 | 53–12 |
| 8. | Roger Federer | 80.5 | 70–17 |
| Grass | % | W–L | |
|---|---|---|---|
| 1. | Pete Sampras | 90.0 | 63–7 |
| 2. | Björn Borg | 88.9 | 56–7 |
| 3. | Roger Federer | 88.6 | 101–13 |
| 4. | Novak Djokovic | 87.8 | 72–10 |
all tournaments W%
| Hard | % | W–L | |
|---|---|---|---|
| 1. | Novak Djokovic | 84.3 | 592–110 |
| 2. | Roger Federer | 83.5 | 782–155 |
| Clay | % | W–L | |
|---|---|---|---|
| 1. | Rafael Nadal | 91.8 | 436–39 |
| 2. | Björn Borg | 86.2 | 281–45 |
| 3. | / Ivan Lendl | 81.0 | 329–77 |
| 4. | Ken Rosewall | 80.2 | 130–32 |
| 5. | Guillermo Vilas | 80.1 | 679–169 |
| 6. | Novak Djokovic | 79.6 | 214–55 |
| 7. | Ilie Năstase | 78.8 | 398–107 |
| 8. | José Luis Clerc | 77.33 | 307–90 |
| 9. | Manuel Orantes | 77.30 | 538–158 |
| 10. | Thomas Muster | 77.0 | 426–127 |
| Grass | % | W–L | |
|---|---|---|---|
| 1. | Roger Federer | 87.4 | 187–27 |
| 2. | John McEnroe | 85.8 | 121–20 |
| 3. | Rod Laver | 84.5 | 87–16 |
| 4. | Novak Djokovic | 84.1 | 95–18 |
h2h
- Clay courts: Tied, 4–4, Nole 1-0 in finals
- Hard courts: Djokovic, 20(+WO)–18
- Outdoor: Djokovic, 14–13
- Indoor: Djokovic, 6(+WO)–5
- Grass courts: Djokovic, 3–1
GS: nole 7-4
WTF: nole 3(+WO)-3, WTF F: 2(+WO)-0
Masters: No1e 8-6, MF No1e 1-0
MM: Fed 4-2
DC: fed 1-0
h2h on clay vs clay GOAT:
No1e: 7-17 (29,2%), 1-6 in RG (14,3%)
Fed: 2-14 (12,5%), 0-6 in RG (0%)
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beard
Legend
Nope...
"Novak won all his titles thanks to slow grass.
Djokovic would not win even one on grass that Federer won his titles mid 2000s"
Federer fans free quoting...
Halle? Please, be serious... wtf cares?
Halle is faster grass which proves Federer is better on quicker grass. You are quite right, had they not slowed the grass down with a higher bounce, Fed would likely be on 10-11 Wimbledon titles. Nadal and Djokovic beat him by grinding on grass! Lol.Nope...
"Novak won all his titles thanks to slow grass.
Djokovic would not win even one on grass that Federer won his titles mid 2000s"
Federer fans free quoting...
Halle? Please, be serious... wtf cares?
Nope...
"Novak won all his titles thanks to slow grass.
Djokovic would not win even one on grass that Federer won his titles mid 2000s"
Federer fans free quoting...
Halle? Please, be serious... wtf cares?
I think that Djokovic is a better grass player than Federer. I base this opinion on Djokovic's 3 wins in Wimbledon finals against peak Federer.
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Fiero425
Legend
,,,,.... and Nole has time; esp. if he lasts for another 3-4 years! Who can really stop him? The man has been picking up Majors and Masters in chunks for years!
beard
Legend
Halle is a meaningless tournament which shows nothing, training camp and money milking cow for Federer. Novak is a man and goes mostly straight to Wimbledon grass...
And yeah, Fed would, as fantasy champion, get 25 Wimbledon titles in 18 years span (one must get bonus for great play)...
ForehandRF
Legend
He can do it, but he is struggling in slams though.A few points here and there in 2018 and 2019 Wimbledon or AO 2020 and things could have been way different.He is not that guy who dominated in 2015-2016 anymore so anything can happen.,,,,.... and Nole has time; esp. if he lasts for another 3-4 years! Who can really stop him? The man has been picking up Majors and Masters in chunks for years!
beard
Legend
Hope he will continue struggling same way and winning 70% of slams...
helterskelter
G.O.A.T.
I'm no Nostradamus, and there are no guarantees in tennis, but I think we can likely agree that:
1) It is unlikely that Djokovic will manage four extra Slams on grass.
2) It is likely that Djokovic will manage one extra Slam on hard.
[I say "extra" because it is not just four more but four more than Federer; e.g. if Federer got one more, Djokovic would need five. I agree that it is at this point rather unlikely that Federer will win any more Slams].
ForehandRF
Legend
Well, as long as he wins the titles, it doesn't matter how.He has that clutch factor which is crucial and he can prevail even in cases when he is far from his best.Hope he will continue struggling same way and winning 70% of slams...
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Lew II
G.O.A.T.
If he wins this year's Wimbledon Nole will have a higher win percentage than Federer in Slams on every surface
on every slam actually.If he wins this year's Wimbledon Nole will have a higher win percentage than Federer in Slams on every surface
| Australian Open | % | W–L |
|---|---|---|
| Andre Agassi | 90.6 | 48–5 |
| Novak Djokovic | 90.4 | 75–8 |
| Guillermo Vilas | 88.5 | 23–3 |
| Roger Federer | 87.2 | 102–15 |
| US Open | % | W–L |
|---|---|---|
| Pete Sampras | 88.8 | 71–9 |
| Novak Djokovic | 86.7 | 72–11 |
| Roger Federer | 86.4 | 89–14 |
| Rafael Nadal | 85.3 | 64–11 |
UnforcedTerror
Hall of Fame
He can of course. It's probably a matter of time at this point but nothing is for certain. Things can change fast in tennis.
daggerman
Hall of Fame
If beating Alejandro Falla in the Finals of Halle doesn't prove Fed is the grass GOAT, I don't know what does!
beard
Legend
Damn, didn't know that, The GOAT he isIf beating Alejandro Falla in the Finals of Halle doesn't prove Fed is the grass GOAT, I don't know what does!
Biotic
Legend
Novak will never be greater on grass, get real people. He is not winning 3 more, let alone 4. The fact that he won as many as he did is amazing.
Have you already forgotten that had Nadal won 2018 semi, they would be at 3 each, roughly equal on grass?
If he gets 1-2 more, that's already Sampras territory, i don't think he, or any of us dared to dream that he'd win that many few years back. Not to mention back in the Day (2007-2011) when nobody thought he will ever do anything meaningful on grass.
Have you already forgotten that had Nadal won 2018 semi, they would be at 3 each, roughly equal on grass?
If he gets 1-2 more, that's already Sampras territory, i don't think he, or any of us dared to dream that he'd win that many few years back. Not to mention back in the Day (2007-2011) when nobody thought he will ever do anything meaningful on grass.
Djokovic is lucky wimblddon was slowed down or else he wouldn’t sniff 5 titles there. He essentially plays a HC game on it with no need to approach the net at all.
beard
Legend
Yes, Novak and Federer are grass co-goats, Federer on fast grass, and Novak on slow (modern) grass...
Edit: Actually, Sampras won more on fast grass, do Sampras and Novak are grass co-goats...
Federer is better on slow grass he has 8 titles. If it was faster grass he’d probably be on 11-12 and the GOAT debate would be over.
beard
Legend
No, no...
SorryFed won mostly on faster grass... Than they slowed it, and that's reason why Novak won so many... Its Fed fans story, not mine, every Wimbledon there are threads started by Fed fans, and old threads are recycled...
? I’m sure they changed it in 2001No, no...
Fed won mostly on faster grass... Than they slowed it, and that's reason why Novak won so many... Its Fed fans story, not mine, every Wimbledon there are threads started by Fed fans, and old threads are recycled...
Hitman
Bionic Poster
Grass was changed in 2001, but the impact of it wasn't felt until 2002, the reason for this is that in 2001 it rained so much, that moisture remained in the grass, keeping it very slick. By 2002, it all changed.
RF-18
Talk Tennis Guru
Is that why Djokovic approached the net more times than anyone not named Federer in last years edition?
Dude you are full of it. So butthurt by Djokovic winning.
beard
Legend
I am fine if Federer and Novak won all titles in same conditions, but its not what most Fed fans are saying... Look just w19 threads about constant slowing... Explanation gor Novak's titles is grass slowing...
They did pretty much. The point being if it played like true grass you wouldn’t have 2 baseliners grinding their way to titles there.
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