Djokovic dethrones Nadal after RG epic - ATPtour.com

[weakera]

It is a detailed response but not quite right as Nadal was nor being that aggressive. He was hitting most balls in the net which means even if they go over they fall short.
It obviously is frustrating for Nole fans that he beat a washed up Nadal but the facts speak for themselves. Djokovic was nothing special either. 37 UFEs he hit is a lot for 4 sets.

I didn't see sets 3 or 4 but it sounds similar to AO Final of 2017. Also a very deceptive "classic" that featured extremely patchy play from both players.

 

[Beckerserve]

You know how many errors Fed made in 2008 Wimbledon Final? 80..! Does that mean Nadal defeated an awful version of Federer? Nadal committed so many errors because Djokovic outperformed him off the ground. Nadal simply has got no ways to win points on extended rallies. Djokovic made him so hopeless that he had no option left other than go for risky shots to win points - that resulted into errors. This is classic way of winning match on clay - Nadal was master of it. But Djokovic gave him taste of his own medicine.

You must not have watched the match. No offence. Nadal missed so many routine balls he never misses. 10 double faults as well
As much as it seems to pain Djokovic fans this is a 35 year old Nadal. And the narrative gaining traction is Djokovic has had to wait until Fedal got to their mid 30s to make inroads.
The key for me was RG2020. Nadal had no business winning that event. Did not look convincing throughout especially v Sinner and had a real battle with Diego in SF yet blew Djokovic away in final in perfect conditions for Djokovic. Djokovic ahould now be on 20 Majors. He bottled it and the question for me is after he has won today will he have the bottle to get to 20.
Or will he remain the thirdwheel on 19.

 

[Beckerserve]

I didn't see sets 3 or 4 but it sounds similar to AO Final of 2017. Also a very deceptive "classic" that featured extremely patchy play from both players.

Basically any match Nadal loses is a classic. This probably because of his dominant h2h v Federer and Djokovic at Majors so thr odd time he loses a lot of pent up frustration comes out.
Nadal hit 55 UFEs and 10 dfs and lost 6 games in a row after being a break up in 4th.
You can form your own opinion.

 

[junior74]

A little funny to talk about "dethroning" when they are 34 and 33 and have played a zillion times before

Safin at 20 beating 4 times USO champ Sampras to become #1, Federer taking out 7 times / 4 times defending Wimbledon champ Sampras at 19, 20 year old Djokovic taking out 2 times defending champ Federer at AU2008 - those are performances worthy of the word "dethroning".

This was a declining Bull getting beaten by a physically and tactically stronger player in better form. Very strong performance by Djokovic, no doubt about that.

Yet Nadal's RG legacy stands.

 

[Krish872007]

Djokovic accomplished the hardest feat in tennis, and quite possibly the hardest feat in sport. He beat Nadal on Chatrier for the second time, and did it from a set behind.
Rafa's aura that he has established in this tournament is just unreal over the last 15 years. He has been an absolute joy to watch and has broken the hearts of so many potential challengers to the throne.

Prior to this match he was:
- 105-2 at RG (98.1% win rate)
- 4-time defending Champion and 13-time overall Champion at RG
- 275-2 after winning the first set in any major clay tournament (RG + Masters 1000)

This was not Nadal at his very best but that shouldn't really diminish the accomplishment and mental effort it took to get over the line against him. Set point Nadal in the third set - if we wins that, he likely wins in 4 and the reaction on this board would have been VERY different.

It changes nothing in terms of Nadal's legacy - he's still very much the Boss here, and the guy who got the job done deserved the win

 

[Chanwan]

It is a detailed response but not quite right as Nadal was nor being that aggressive. He was hitting most balls in the net which means even if they go over they fall short.
It obviously is frustrating for Nole fans that he beat a washed up Nadal but the facts speak for themselves. Djokovic was nothing special either. 37 UFEs he hit is a lot for 4 sets.

I'm not a Novak-fan by any means. You ignore the vast majority of my response, even though you specifically asked and I provided you an example of a match where Rafa played well and made 16 more unforced errors.

 

[weakera]

Basically any match Nadal loses is a classic. This probably because of his dominant h2h v Federer and Djokovic at Majors so thr odd time he loses a lot of pent up frustration comes out.
Nadal hit 55 UFEs and 10 dfs and lost 6 games in a row after being a break up in 4th.
You can form your own opinion.

What makes you think that Djokovic won't blow by 19 and 20 easily at this point, is that just wishful thinking on your part?

In regards to the match, speaking as someone going mostly off of the numbers because I missed most of it, I definitely wouldn't credit Djokovic for "dethroning" Nadal, but aren't we just splitting hairs at that point? Djokovic is ever the survivor and opportunist, and there were always two doors to defeating Nadal at RG - beating him at his best by redlining for 3 hours, or being opportunistic and waiting for him to dip. Djokovic walked through door #2 twice, unlike Soderling who used door #1. Will history remember or care about the circumstances though? That is why Djokovic is a manic assassin, come hell or high water he wasn't going to go away.

 

[Beckerserve]

I'm not a Novak-fan by any means. You ignore the vast majority of my response, even though you specifically asked and I provided you an example of a match where Rafa played well and made 16 more unforced errors.

No i did not ignore your response at all. I said u cannot compare as Nadal was missing shots he would miss like routine BHs.
Unforced errors are just that. Unforced. You are mixing up forced errors i think.
The volley he missed in TB had nothing to do with Djokovic as he missed an open court. One example.

 

[Beckerserve]

What makes you think that Djokovic won't blow by 19 and 20 easily at this point, is that just wishful thinking on your part?

In regards to the match, speaking as someone going mostly off of the numbers because I missed most of it, I definitely wouldn't credit Djokovic for "dethroning" Nadal, but aren't we just splitting hairs at that point? Djokovic is ever the survivor and opportunist, and there were always two doors to defeating Nadal at RG - beating him at his best by redlining for 3 hours, or being opportunistic and waiting for him to dip. Djokovic walked through door #2 twice, unlike Soderling who used door #1. Will history remember or care about the circumstances though? That is why Djokovic is a manic assassin, come hell or high water he wasn't going to go away.

Well depends. When i look at Wimbledon 84 and McEnroe v Connors i do not think wow McEnroe was GOATing. I see a washed up past it Connors. Similarly W1995 Sampras v Becker. Becker legs had gone after 1st set.
Djokovic beat Federer at W for 1st time when he was 33. He just beat Nadal at 35. Yes Djokovic is 34 but he is simply ageing better as he has not had the same injuries Nadal had.
Why was he being routined all the time by peak Nadal and Federer?
I personally think he is mentally suspect. Getting to 20 i feel is all dependent on Wimbledon. If he were to lose there where he is odds on favourite i think the stress will get to him.
It is why i said Nadal would not win this event. I think he too would have got nervous in final. But he did manage to at least match Federer.
Lets see if im right. Beauty is at this time of year we are in thick of season. No waiting around for months.
Hopefully Nadal sorts out his foot and plays Wimbledon. GAME ON

 

[weakera]

Well depends. When i look at Wimbledon 84 and McEnroe v Connors i do not think wow McEnroe was GOATing. I see a washed up past it Connors. Similarly W1995 Sampras v Becker. Becker legs had gone after 1st set.
Djokovic beat Federer at W for 1st time when he was 33. He just beat Nadal at 35. Yes Djokovic is 34 but he is simply ageing better as he has not had the same injuries Nadal had.
Why was he being routined all the time by peak Nadal and Federer?
I personally think he is mentally suspect. Getting to 20 i feel is all dependent on Wimbledon. If he were to lose there where he is odds on favourite i think the stress will get to him.
It is why i said Nadal would not win this event. I think he too would have got nervous in final. But he did manage to at least match Federer.
Lets see if im right. Beauty is at this time of year we are in thick of season. No waiting around for months.
Hopefully Nadal sorts out his foot and plays Wimbledon. GAME ON

The thing is most of the public just sees the result and not the context, especially as history forgets that context over time. So yes, some manic tennis fans on this forum will debate Nadal's condition in the semi for the next 50 years. But most people will just see and reference the numbers.

 

[Beckerserve]

The thing is most of the public just sees the result and not the context, especially as history forgets that context over time. So yes, some manic tennis fans on this forum will debate Nadal's condition in the semi for the next 50 years. But most people will just see and reference the numbers.

Yes. Hence whatever happens today it is 20-20-19. If it stays that way Djokovic will be the 3rd wheel for most.

 

[The_Order]

I don't visit this place much but I have to say how mindblowingly astounding some of these comments are. Djokovic fans in denial? Of what exactly? That he just won a match against one of his main rivals? I honestly think that some of you people have an addiction and would be well served by taking a break from these message boards. Especially you and that Backserve troll.

Visit a bit more then in order to get some context instead of trying to make yourself sound like a hero...

There are sensible fans and then there are the idiots. Clearly, I'm calling them out.

Now go back to your cave.

 

[Biotic]

LOL who cares about this and that. Nadal was in a slam winning form obviously, no one else would've stopped him.

34 vs 35, no excuses.

If you want the job done right, you have to do it yourself.

The beast was slain.

 

[Chanwan]

No i did not ignore your response at all. I said u cannot compare as Nadal was missing shots he would miss like routine BHs.
Unforced errors are just that. Unforced. You are mixing up forced errors i think.
The volley he missed in TB had nothing to do with Djokovic as he missed an open court. One example.

I am not mixing up UFE and FE. I am saying that Rafa and Novak are the type of players who make their opponent hit more UEs than usual because of their great defense, which forces the opponent to 'win' the point more than once

Volley, yes. That was just poor/nerves

 

[mwym]

Nadal made 55 UFEs and Djokovic fans are acting like Djokovic achieved mission impossible.
Yesterday Nadal playing like that would have lost to Berrettini. He was woeful. 10 DFs 56 UFEs. I cannot find a match in Nadals career where he hit that many UFEs and DFs.

Djokovic sent the balls which became Nadal's 55UE.

Nadal was hitting against Djokovic these balls which became his 55UE.

No other player can send the balls on PC to Nadal like Djokovic can for 4 hours. There is no need to risk too much and make 55UE with any other player on PC for 4 hours.

Djokovic IS the cause of 55UE. Just like Djokovic is the cause of 40-15. Your mind simply refuses to accept the obvious.

Your mind fails at accepting objective reality due to emotional stress caused by Nadal being defeated at PC. Children escape to fantasy when they cannot cope with reality.

"Enduring means accepting. Accepting things as they are and not as you wish them to be. And then looking ahead and not behind." Rafael Nadal

If offered Djokovic would put his name to these words. Federer too. I have the career of all 3 as a proof.

Step away from the forum, do something else and think about these words.

 

[Beckerserve]

I am not mixing up UFE and FE. I am saying that Rafa and Novak are the type of players who make their opponent hit more UEs than usual because of their great defense, which forces the opponent to 'win' the point more than once

Volley, yes. That was just poor/nerves

I understand your point. But Nadal was missing BH after BH. Did not hit one flat DTL BH winner. I know the reason why but i cannot share it on here.

 

[Beckerserve]

Djokovic sent the balls which became Nadal's 55UE.

Nadal was hitting against Djokovic these balls which became his 55UE.

No other player can send the balls on PC to Nadal like Djokovic can for 4 hours. There is no need to risk too much and make 55UE with any other player on PC for 4 hours.

Djokovic IS the cause of 55UE. Just like Djokovic is the cause of 40-15. Your mind simply refuses to accept the obvious.

Your mind fails at accepting objective reality due to emotional stress caused by Nadal being defeated at PC. Children escape to fantasy when they cannot cope with reality.

"Enduring means accepting. Accepting things as they are and not as you wish them to be. And then looking ahead and not behind." Rafael Nadal

If offered Djokovic would put his name to these words. Federer too. I have the career of all 3 as a proof.

Step away from the forum, do something else and think about these words.

Your point is null and void as h2h is Nadal 7-Djokovic on PC. Before Friday it was 7-1. There is no reason for Djokovic game to worry Nadal clearly. Not on PC. RLA yes. Not PC.
56 UFEs is the talking point. Might annoy Djokovic fans. That is their hard luck.

 

[mwym]

Your point is null and void as h2h is Nadal 7-Djokovic on PC. Before Friday it was 7-1. There is no reason for Djokovic game to worry Nadal clearly. Not on PC. RLA yes. Not PC.
56 UFEs is the talking point. Might annoy Djokovic fans. That is their hard luck.

Ok I get it you are a stubborn child.

Nadal has legacy in tennis history and monument at RG already. And if his body persists he has a good chance at RG22.

What keeps you in this panic mode for 2 days already is Djokovic and not Nadal holding Slam count record in theend.

Nadal and Djokovic will decide who has it. We all are nothing but spectators. And it will go on for at least a year from today if not longer.

Enjoy witnessing history in the making. Stop behaving like a spoilt brat. You are the one who decides what your mind will do. Cause you have a human mind. Use it. Just like Nadal and Djokovic do when faced with reality.

 

[GabeT]

Well when people are acting like he's dethroned Nadal and forced him into making all those errors it needs to be pointed out.

Nadal has been serving DFs and making an uncharacteristically large amount of UEs this whole tournament. Gasquet was the only opponents where this didn't ring true but Gasquet is way more washed up than Nadal is anyway.

v Popyrin 28W 23 UE - 5DF
v Norrie 35W 29UE - 2DF
v Sinner 31W 30UE - 7DF
v Schwartzman 35W 29UE - 3DF
v Djokovic 48W 55UE - 8DF (career high)

Tells you everything. Against lesser opponents he was able to only slightly reach a positive w/UE ratio. Against Novak it's a slightly negative W/UE ratio

Either way it's definitive proof that it's more centred around Nadal not playing well by his usual RG standards.

So don't tell me Novak forced those errors and expect me to take it seriously it's a load of bs being spouted by Djokovic fans because they are in denial.

Again, who cares? Novak won, Nadal lost. It wasn’t supposed to happen at RG but it did. If you care about the slam race it’s pretty important because it just stopped Nadal from reaching 21, possibly forever (but we will have to wait on that).

and Novak dismantled Nadal in the final set. Would be interesting to know why and if it really means Nadal has lost the legs to play long matches.

 

[NoleFam]

Mileage and age are not the same for everyone. Everyone ages differently. I.e. You can't go purely by the numbers and say Rafa shouldn't be at a disadvantage.

I would imagine everyone om the forum can agree that Djoko is closer to his physical peak/prime than Rafa/Roger and most likely has the highest number of quality seasons left in him. You don't?

Was he at a disadvantage 8 months ago when he massacred Djokovic on that same court? What about 3 weeks ago when he slayed him in Rome?
Now I'm supposed to believe now he's at some major disadvantage months later when he's 35 and Djokovic is 34?

 

[Chanwan]

Was he at a disadvantage 8 months ago when he massacred Djokovic on that same court? What about 3 weeks ago when he slayed him in Rome?
Now I'm supposed to believe now he's at some major disadvantage months later when he's 35 and Djokovic is 34?

He's at a disadvantage in the sense that if a match goes long in a best of five, Novak now has the upper hand. Historically, both Rafa and Novak have had the upper hand against the field, the longer the point and the longer the match. For Rafa, that's no longer the case against Djokovic, whom he - until recently - has been able to go toe to toe for physically for as long as it took. On Friday, he couldn't in the 4th. It's to Djokovic' credit that he can get Rafa to the point of exhaustion. Most likely, no one else would have had the game nor the stamina to expose Rafa in this respect or at the very least not to this degree.

Do you disagree with that? If so, I don't know what else to tell you. Then we simply disagree.
Do you disagree that Djokovic is closer to his physical peak than Rafa? Again, if so, I don't know what to tell you.

Anyhow, gotta watch the match. Enjoy and best of luck to your guy. Good thing he didn't seem to hurt himself just now.

 

[Nole_The_Champion]

Yes Djokovic will NOT reach 20. I repeat he will NOT reach Club 20 like Fedal. Sorry.