Djokovic fans : If you had to choose between...

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Your choice ?

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Djokovic winning the Golden Slam but no additional Major title for the rest of his career or 23 slams but no gold medal and no CYGS ? :unsure:
 
Normally you would go with the CYGS, but with the way he is winning it, in the future, it might not have the value Djoker fans are hoping it will. A 1-2 slam edge would be more decisive than potentially being #2 in slams with a cool/questionable distinction. Being Slam King is your safest bet.
 
Please don't bring up SR. If you say his name enough times he'll appear, just like Beetlejuice or Biggie Smalls.

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Standaa said:
Golden CYGS settles the GOAT debate for good IMO. there's nothing Nadal could do realistically to beat that.
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Golden CYGS means you have had an amazing year and an unprecedented 12 months of dominance.
But greatness means looking at the entire career not just the peaks and troughs.
If Nadal finished his career 3 slams ahead of Djokovic with Olympic Gold at Roland Garros in 2024 ....
 
Standaa said:
Golden CYGS settles the GOAT debate for good IMO. there's nothing Nadal could do realistically to beat that.
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I agree. The CYGS would be such an accomplishment that it blows doors off anything Rafa can do at age 35. The OGM is meaningless in the scheme of things, the CYGS is the Everest of tennis.
 
BeatlesFan said:
I agree. The CYGS would be such an accomplishment that it blows doors off anything Rafa can do at age 35. The OGM is meaningless in the scheme of things, the CYGS is the Everest of tennis.
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But didn't you once say that it's all about who has the Slam record? I remember you saying that the CYGS wouldn't mean that much.
 
BeatlesFan said:
I agree. The CYGS would be such an accomplishment that it blows doors off anything Rafa can do at age 35. The OGM is meaningless in the scheme of things, the CYGS is the Everest of tennis.
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It’s still about the slam record mainly though. Even if Novak did the CYGS but Rafa ended with more slams in the end I’d rank nadal ahead! It’s best to stay consistent
 
Agassi won all 4 slams and nobody gave a sh*t in the 90s or in the early 00s as Pete had more slams :D
CYGS also won't matter if someone has more slams.
More slams matter because that is the narrative set in the media by Pete and later even Federer backed it.
 
Sunny014 said:
Agassi won all 4 slams and nobody gave a sh*t in the 90s or in the early 00s as Pete had more slams :D
CYGS also won't matter if someone has more slams.
More slams matter because that is the narrative set in the media by Pete and later even Federer backed it.
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Many have Laver as one of the GOATs due to the CYGS.
 
I'm equal parts Novak and Rafa fan, so I'm trying to consider what is better, regardless of player, though tough to do.
Its a good question.
While I think that slam count is the most important single category, I don't consider everything else to be simply tiebreakers.
I think that Option A -- 21 slams including a Golden Slam -- is somehow preferable, but of course, that would mean, that he would win no slams beyond 2021. But it would also mean that he would produce two different achievements that nobody else has achieved on the men's tour in 52 years.
 
Backspin1183 said:
I honestly don't think the CYGS will matter that much if he doesn't lead the Slam count too.
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If it were a super-impressive CYGS, it would, but I'm not sure this one will. Had Djoker won a CYGS in 2008, beating Nadal at RG, Fed at Wimbledon, it would be hard to argue against it. That said, if it's Nadal 23, Djoker 21 with a CYGS consisting of Berrettini, Karatsev and the little kid who asked for his shirt and gave him a back rub at the Olympics, I'm not sure the CYGS would be decisive.
 
Nole Slam said:
Many have Laver as one of the GOATs due to the CYGS.
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Laver is only remembered because he is an Old man and because the top pros of the 80s-90s-00s idolized him as they grew up.

Otherwise the modern era of the 21st century (post Sampras) has been guided by Slams number, nothing else beats it, we have to now create a new narrative for CYGS in the media in order for it to gain traction, however I think slams number is significant. Even Tiger woods was hyped by he chasing Jack Niklaus during the late 90s-early 00s....like Federer chasing Pete .... that narrative is too strong now.
 
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Standaa said:
Nadal doesn't even have a guaranteed slam every year anymore (tho obviously he's still a massive favorite at RG).
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Do you think so? I don't. Still favourite perhaps but not overwhelmingly so anymore. Nadal is obviously declining and likely to more come RG 2022. He might still win it but I wouldn't bet much on it. If he doesn't win RG 22 it's probably fairly safe to say he's done winning there.
 
Antonio Puente said:
If it were a super-impressive CYGS, it would, but I'm not sure this one will. Had Djoker won a CYGS in 2008, beating Nadal at RG, Fed at Wimbledon, it would be hard to argue against it. That said, if it's Nadal 23, Djoker 21 with a CYGS consisting of Berrettini, Karatsev and the little kid who asked for his shirt and gave him a back rub at the Olympics, I'm not sure the CYGS would be decisive.
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Calendar year Grand Slam would most definitely be decisive. And surely no way is Rafa reaching 23 anyway.
 
egrorian said:
Do you think so? I don't. Still favourite perhaps but not overwhelmingly so anymore. Nadal is obviously declining and likely to more come RG 2022. He might still win it but I wouldn't bet much on it. If he doesn't win RG 22 it's probably fairly safe to say he's done winning there.
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sorry but Nadal deserves to still be called a massive favorite after his career at RG. he still has no competition there if he's playing well except for Nole.
 
Standaa said:
sorry but Nadal deserves to still be called a massive favorite after his career at RG. he still has no competition there if he's playing well except for Nole.
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Even Nadal knows he has only 1 french open more in him at max.

This is what he said after the loss to Novak Djokovic at FO 21


"I am sad to have lost in the most important tournament of the year for me, but life goes on, it is nothing more than a defeat on a tennis court," said 35-year-old Nadal.

"If everything goes well, tomorrow I will be at home with my family and friends, and then we will see what is next."

"Although it is a very important tournament for me, I am aware that you cannot win it 15 or 16 times," he added.

"Next year I will come again, God willing, with the belief and with the necessary work to be able to give myself another chance."
 
Standaa said:
sorry but Nadal deserves to still be called a massive favorite after his career at RG. he still has no competition there if he's playing well except for Nole.
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"Massive" favourite? He's ageing and more vulnerable than ever before. I think it's no better than 50-50 that he wins RG again.
 
egrorian said:
"Massive" favourite? He's ageing and more vulnerable than ever before. I think it's no better than 50-50 that he wins RG again.
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we've heard this since at least 2017 that he's old and therefore can't be favoured to win the next one. until that loss to Djokovic he's lost only 3 sets there since 2017. that's 4 editions, and only 3 sets lost. also he bagelled Djoker in the fall at RG.
 
egrorian said:
Calendar year Grand Slam would most definitely be decisive. And surely no way is Rafa reaching 23 anyway.
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As far as the CYGS goes, look at it like this. If it's 23-21, Djoker with no CYGS, there is no argument in the GOAT debate. If it's 23-21, Nadal with a weak CYGS, there is certainly a debate. Djoker's not even Slam King. Djoker fans would spend the rest of their lives being Lew, pointing to all the secondary stuff instead of just saying 23-21.
 
Standaa said:
we've heard this since at least 2017 that he's old and therefore can't be favoured to win the next one. until that loss to Djokovic he's lost only 3 sets there since 2017. that's 4 editions, and only 3 sets lost. also he bagelled Djoker in the fall at RG.
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This year had a different feel though. Even Rafa can't defy age indefinitely and the signs are there. By RG 22 he will be 36. As I say, he might well win it - I wouldn't write him off - but can't see him as anything like the virtual certainty he has been in previous years.
 
Antonio Puente said:
Normally you would go with the CYGS, but with the way he is winning it, in the future, it might not have the value Djoker fans are hoping it will. A 1-2 slam edge would be more decisive than potentially being #2 in slams with a cool/questionable distinction. Being Slam King is your safest bet.
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That's why many tennis history experts never considered Fed higher than Laver in GOAT debate, or they finally and barely conceded after Fed won his 18th/19th/20th GS title.
 
Antonio Puente said:
As far as the CYGS goes, look at it like this. If it's 23-21, Djoker with no CYGS, there is no argument in the GOAT debate. If it's 23-21, Nadal with a weak CYGS, there is certainly a debate. Djoker's not even Slam King. Djoker fans would spend the rest of their lives being Lew, pointing to all the secondary stuff instead of just saying 23-21.
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I take it you meant Nole with a weak CYGS, not Nadal...(?). Clearly opinions differ, I say Djokovic on 21 with a CYGS tops 23 (but all hypothetical anyway - Djokovic may not win the US Open and something extraordinary will have to happen for Nadal to reach 23).
 
I would take 23 because Nadal could very well add a few more on to his resume. The Golden Slam is insane, but were not exactly in a "Golden Era" either. Djokovic has the "all surface slam" this year but its not as good as Nadal's 2010 because Nadal's opposition in 2010 was actually more quality than Djokovic's opposition this year
 
Standaa said:
sorry but Nadal deserves to still be called a massive favorite after his career at RG. he still has no competition there if he's playing well except for Nole.
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Yeah I think Rafa will take back the french next year again. It took an awesome Djokovic performance but that’s unlikely to be repeated next year. Still think Rafa has more life at the french yet. Djoko of course though will be in mix as will Tsitsipas and maybe thiem if he comes back strong in 2022.
 
Djokovic_is_the_best#1 said:
Yeah I think Rafa will take back the french next year again. It took an awesome Djokovic performance but that’s unlikely to be repeated next year. Still think Rafa has more life at the french yet. Djoko of course though will be in mix as will Tsitsipas and maybe thiem if he comes back strong in 2022.
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The problem for Nadal is that he will be 36. Peaking Tsitsipas could trouble him. And what if Thiem peaks again... Time is running out.
 
Antonio Puente said:
If it were a super-impressive CYGS, it would, but I'm not sure this one will. Had Djoker won a CYGS in 2008, beating Nadal at RG, Fed at Wimbledon, it would be hard to argue against it. That said, if it's Nadal 23, Djoker 21 with a CYGS consisting of Berrettini, Karatsev and the little kid who asked for his shirt and gave him a back rub at the Olympics, I'm not sure the CYGS would be decisive.
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Do you know who Laver beat winning his CYGS? We heard of his accomplishment million times here but his opponents were never mentioned... Not saying you are right Novaks opponents were bad (they were decent at worst)... Off course there will be some salty, whining posters that will make excuses for ever, lol...
 
Nole Slam said:
The problem for Nadal is that he will be 36. Peaking Tsitsipas could trouble him. And what if Thiem peaks again... Time is running out.
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True point. I agree it will be tough for him for sure. I just think we can never count him out particularly on clay. I agree though at 36 it’s not gonna be easy but I think Rafa will at least be determined to add another to finish ahead of federer in slams.

Hoping Djokovic ends up first but I feel Rafa will still fight for a bit longer yet. Fed is done though.

I do think though the loss to Djokovic this year will make Rafa more vulnerable though at french and others and of course Djokovic will believe more at the french next year. His aura of invincibility has been hit now.
 
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