Djokovic greater than any other player on 2/3 surfaces?

Greater than anyone else on 2/3 surfaces?

  • Yes

    Votes: 23 38.3%
  • No

    Votes: 29 48.3%
  • Tied with Borg on grass

    Votes: 6 10.0%
  • Other

    Votes: 2 3.3%

  • Total voters
    60

NoleIsBoat

Hall of Fame
I hear a lot of people on here say tennis didn't start in 2011, but it also didn't stop in 2013. When Nadal can't even win sets against Djokovic on any hardcourt in the world since that match, it's hard to imagine him keeping that 2-1 lead if they had met more there in the last 8 years.
Nadal fans think it’s a special HC where Nadal is better :laughing:
 

Third Serve

G.O.A.T.
Honestly though, I would take peak Ned at the USO over peak Djokovic there. Frankly, it's hard for me to see any US Open version of Djokovic beating 2010 Nadal. Best would be 2011 final Djokovic but the bad serve would probably do him in. If they had played more matches there, however, I feel like Djokovic would eventually gain the H2H advantage. He matches up too well against Ned on HC since 2013.
 

RS

Legend
Honestly though, I would take peak Ned at the USO over peak Djokovic there. Frankly, it's hard for me to see any US Open version of Djokovic beating 2010 Nadal. Best would be 2011 final Djokovic but the bad serve would probably do him in. If they had played more matches there, however, I feel like Djokovic would eventually gain the H2H advantage. He matches up too well against Ned on HC since 2013.
How do you see Nadal of USO 13 vs Djokovic of USO 15 going?
 

weakera

G.O.A.T.
I hear a lot of people on here say tennis didn't start in 2011, but it also didn't stop in 2013. When Nadal can't even win sets against Djokovic on any hardcourt in the world since that match, it's hard to imagine him keeping that 2-1 lead if they had met more there in the last 8 years.
You couldn't find a more irrelevant statistic. Nadal and Djokovic met constantly during Nadal's downturn (2015-2016) because Nadal did not tank like Djokovic and because Nadal was still good enough to reach Djokovic. Novak from 2017-mid 2018 was either tanking or not good enough to reach Nadal which is why he crashed out of the top-10.

Since 2013 they have met three times on HC not including Nadal or Djokovic's downturn. Three matches lol. You cite the "since 2013" garbage as if it means Nadal "COULDN'T" have beaten Nole during that time when we all know Nadal would have massacred Djokovic badly from 2017-mid 2018, when Djokovic was busy getting Chung'd or worse.

Here are the only facts that matter: 2-1 Nadal. No amount of coulda, shoulda, woulda will change it.



 

NoleIsBoat

Hall of Fame
Honestly though, I would take peak Ned at the USO over peak Djokovic there. Frankly, it's hard for me to see any US Open version of Djokovic beating 2010 Nadal. Best would be 2011 final Djokovic but the bad serve would probably do him in. If they had played more matches there, however, I feel like Djokovic would eventually gain the H2H advantage. He matches up too well against Ned on HC since 2013.
We saw them peak for peak in 2011 :whistle:
2011 Nadal reached more finals than 2010 Nadal. He didn’t win as much because he faced Djokovic
 

NoleIsBoat

Hall of Fame
You couldn't find a more irrelevant statistic. Nadal and Djokovic met constantly during Nadal's downturn (2015-2016) because Nadal did not tank like Djokovic and because Nadal was still good enough to reach Djokovic. Novak from 2017-mid 2018 was either tanking or not good enough to reach Nadal which is why he crashed out of the top-10.

Since 2013 they have met three times on HC not including Nadal or Djokovic's downturn. Three matches lol. You cite the "since 2013" garbage as if it means Nadal "COULDN'T" have beaten Nole during that time when we all know Nadal would have massacred Djokovic badly from 2017-mid 2018, when Djokovic was busy getting Chung'd or worse.

Here are the only facts that matter: 2-1 Nadal. No amount of coulda, shoulda, woulda will change it.



15-16 Nadal wasn’t even that bad, just got found out by the evolved field.

Even evolved 2018-2020 Nadal has been owned off clay by Djokovic:whistle:

I hope they meet this year at the USO. Would be a rude awakening for VB.
 

NoleFam

Talk Tennis Guru
You couldn't find a more irrelevant statistic. Nadal and Djokovic met constantly during Nadal's downturn (2015-2016) because Nadal did not tank like Djokovic and because Nadal was still good enough to reach Djokovic. Novak from 2017-mid 2018 was either tanking or not good enough to reach Nadal which is why he crashed out of the top-10.

Since 2013 they have met three times on HC not including Nadal or Djokovic's downturn. Three matches lol. You cite the "since 2013" garbage as if it means Nadal "COULDN'T" have beaten Nole during that time when we all know Nadal would have massacred Djokovic badly from 2017-mid 2018, when Djokovic was busy getting Chung'd or worse.

Here are the only facts that matter: 2-1 Nadal. No amount of coulda, shoulda, woulda will change it.



They met 4 times in 2015 and 2016 but not at the USO, because guess what, Nadal wasn't good enough to reach him in the QF and SF in those years when they were scheduled to face each other. So you saying he was good enough to reach Djokovic isn't completely true. Djokovic played one tournament from July 2017 to March 2018, the 2018 AO, so I wouldn't be expecting them to play if he was not even on the tour out with injury. The facts are that Nadal has not been a problem for Djokovic on hardcourt since September 2013. You talk about the matches in 2015 and 2016 but what about 2013 WTF, 2014 Miami, 2019 AO and 2020 ATP Cup? He lost easily all 4 times over numerous years.
 

weakera

G.O.A.T.
They met 4 times in 2015 and 2016 but not at the USO, because guess what, Nadal wasn't good enough to reach him in the QF and SF in those years when they were scheduled to face each other. So you saying he was good enough to reach Djokovic isn't completely true. Djokovic played one tournament from July 2017 to March 2018, the 2018 AO, so I wouldn't be expecting them to play if he was not even on the tour out with injury. The facts are that Nadal has not been a problem for Djokovic on hardcourt since September 2013. You talk about the matches in 2015 and 2016 but what about 2013 WTF, 2014 Miami, 2019 AO and 2020 ATP Cup? He lost easily all 4 times over numerous years.

So 4x vs. 0x for downturn's off clay? Thanks for confirming.

And yes, 3 matches since 2013 not during a downturn - two in Australia and one at one of Nadal's worst tourneys lol. Back up the cherry picker.

I give Djokovic credit for Wimbledon 2018 though. That was a great match.
 

Third Serve

G.O.A.T.
We saw them peak for peak in 2011 :whistle:
2011 Nadal reached more finals than 2010 Nadal. He didn’t win as much because he faced Djokovic
Nah, wrong on both counts.

Djokovic was good in the final but worse than in the semis; as I said, it was the bad serving. Nadal played great for one set, but the others were far too straightforward and his shots weren't nearly as explosive. Especially the serve. Ned's serve was a brutal weapon in the 2010 tournament while 2011 final is a strong contender for the worst he's ever served in a Slam final.

WRT the second point... what if... both Nadal declined and Djokovic improved? The two don't have to be mutually exclusive, you know.

And I think that's exactly what happened. Especially on clay, because 2010 Nadal swept the whole clay season in remarkable form while 2011 was hit or miss by his lofty standards. Event-by-event comparison:

AO: Draw, both were injured I think
IW: 2011
Miami: 2011
Monte-Carlo: 2010
Madrid: 2010
Rome: 2010 (this tournament was devastating by Nadal; I think he dropped something like only 25 games along the way)
RG: 2010 (hit-or-miss in 2011, several of the matches there were quite low-quality by his standards, while 2010 didn't drop a set at all)
Wimby: 2010 (Nadal was bang-average in 2011; a very middling final from him and a bit worse than the 2006 final imo)
Canada: 2010 (Nadal lost super early in 2011)
Cincinnati: Both were poor but 2010 I suppose
US Open: 2010
Shanghai: Again, both were poor but 2010
Paris: Nadal skipped both tournaments
WTF: 2010

Overall it's not even that close. 2011 Nadal reached a lot of finals but he never delivered in the same way that he did in 2010.
 

Villain

Professional
FO gets way more coverage than AO. FO v USO im unsure about. W way ahead.
Much less than Wimbledon and USO. Fans can’t even be bothered to attend most matches and attendance is incredibly poor. Hardly a ringing endorsement for the French. Your argument is out-of-date. Based on your criteria, what is an appropriate scale for slams?

1/2 point for AO, 3/4 for FO, 1 for USO, 2 for Wimbledon?
 

Beckerserve

Legend
Much less than Wimbledon and USO. Fans can’t even be bothered to attend most matches and attendance is incredibly poor. So what is an appropriate scale for slams?

1/2 point for AO, 3/4 for FO, 1 for USO, 2 for Wimbledon?
Wimbledon gets more kudos and is why many still have Federer as GOAT. He is more widely known than Nadal as wimbledon is more known.
 

NoleFam

Talk Tennis Guru
So 4x vs. 0x for downturn's off clay? Thanks for confirming.

And yes, 3 matches since 2013 not during a downturn - two in Australia and one at one of Nadal's worst tourneys lol. Back up the cherry picker.

I give Djokovic credit for Wimbledon 2018 though. That was a great match.
More like 0/2: 2017 AO, where they would have played in the SF if Djokovic made it and 2017 Indian Wells where they would played in the QF or SF. Djokovic didn't play Miami 2017, and Nadal didn't play 2018 IW or Miami. Also, if by some miracle Djokovic made it to the 2018 AO final they wouldn't have played anyway since Nadal was out in the QF.
 

MeatTornado

G.O.A.T.
Honestly though, I would take peak Ned at the USO over peak Djokovic there. Frankly, it's hard for me to see any US Open version of Djokovic beating 2010 Nadal. Best would be 2011 final Djokovic but the bad serve would probably do him in. If they had played more matches there, however, I feel like Djokovic would eventually gain the H2H advantage. He matches up too well against Ned on HC since 2013.
Even before then. Novak could've potentially taken the lead before Nadal had his breakthrough in 2010 had they met. I'd back 2007-09 Djokovic to beat Rafa there every year. Rafa came into that event sluggish too many times.
 

NoleFam

Talk Tennis Guru
Nah, wrong on both counts.

Djokovic was good in the final but worse than in the semis; as I said, it was the bad serving. Nadal played great for one set, but the others were far too straightforward and his shots weren't nearly as explosive. Especially the serve. Ned's serve was a brutal weapon in the 2010 tournament while 2011 final is a strong contender for the worst he's ever served in a Slam final.

WRT the second point... what if... both Nadal declined and Djokovic improved? The two don't have to be mutually exclusive, you know.

And I think that's exactly what happened. Especially on clay, because 2010 Nadal swept the whole clay season in remarkable form while 2011 was hit or miss by his lofty standards. Event-by-event comparison:

AO: Draw, both were injured I think
IW: 2011
Miami: 2011
Monte-Carlo: 2010
Madrid: 2010
Rome: 2010 (this tournament was devastating by Nadal; I think he dropped something like only 25 games along the way)
RG: 2010 (hit-or-miss in 2011, several of the matches there were quite low-quality by his standards, while 2010 didn't drop a set at all)
Wimby: 2010 (Nadal was bang-average in 2011; a very middling final from him and a bit worse than the 2006 final imo)
Canada: 2010 (Nadal lost super early in 2011)
Cincinnati: Both were poor but 2010 I suppose
US Open: 2010
Shanghai: Again, both were poor but 2010
Paris: Nadal skipped both tournaments
WTF: 2010

Overall it's not even that close. 2011 Nadal reached a lot of finals but he never delivered in the same way that he did in 2010.
The Nadal 2010 USO serve is overrated imo. His average speeds in the final were 116 mph/88 mph on the 1st and second. Both of Djokovic's averages were higher. It's just that Nadal occasionally went for big serves but he also threw in a lot of slower serves. That is not going to bother a great returner like Djokovic which is why I think 2011 Djokovic beats any version of Nadal at the USO and I'm pretty confident he would win. We could go back and forth on which Nadal of 2010 or 2011 was better overall but the fact is he wasn't playing an opponent of Djokovic 2011's caliber in 2010 in a lot of those tournaments so hard to do a comparison when he wasn't being pushed to the level he was in 2011.
 

Sunny014

Hall of Fame
That’s weird, because the AO has been faster than the USO for awhile now and we know who does the better there. Novak has a clearly better resume on clay. Higher winning percentage, more Masters, more tournament wins.
USO has been slow since 2010, before that Federer spanked novak there twice, forgot?
On top of that the AO plexi arrived when Fed was touching 27, yet he won it 3 times from 27+ .... not bad at all for an old man.
 

Sunny014

Hall of Fame
Some delusion and coping mechanism going on in this thread :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

Djokovic absolutely owns Nadal on HC and grass, in his peak year is also 4 -0 on clay too:whistle:

he is also better than Fed on all surfaces too. More HC slam+master+h2h. More clay masters. 3-0 in Wimbledon finals :whistle:

BOAT
A boat who loses to Wawrinka of all people, has losing h2h on grass to murray
haha .... own rivals of same age beat you
 

Sunny014

Hall of Fame
Djokovic also now has a (slightly!) better record at Roland Garros than Federer, even if we don't count "has beaten Nadal" as a tiebreaker:

Titles: Djokovic 1-1 Federer
Losing Finals: Djokovic 4-4 Federer
Losing Semi-Finals: Djokovic 5-3 Federer
Losing Quarter-Finals: Djokovic 4-4 Federer

Making the Semi-Finals > Not Making the Semi-Finals
Beating an injured Nadal is no tie breaker because he got spanked by Wawrinka the next match. ...
Federer past his peak in 2011 beat in peak Novak at the roland garros and prevented him from meeting nadal in the final ... So thats the real tie breaker .... even if you say novak beat him next year that still won't compensate because federer was past his peak ....
 
Beating an injured Nadal is no tie breaker because he got spanked by Wawrinka the next match. ...
Federer past his peak in 2011 beat in peak Novak at the roland garros and prevented him from meeting nadal in the final ... So thats the real tie breaker .... even if you say novak beat him next year that still won't compensate because federer was past his peak ....
Nah. Djokovic's extra semi-finals are the only tiebreak, not head-to-head record (especially not with ridiculous blather about the mythical concept of peak when the head to head is actually equal) and not record against Nadal. It's results against the field that count. Making the semi-final > not making the semi-final.
 

Sunny014

Hall of Fame
Nah. Djokovic's extra semi-finals are the only tiebreak, not head-to-head record (especially not with ridiculous blather about the mythical concept of peak when the head to head is actually equal) and not record against Nadal. It's results against the field that count. Making the semi-final > not making the semi-final.
Extra semi finals in a weaker era.
Naa..... not enough

Especially when Fed stopped taking the french seriously in the second decade due to Nadal's presence and also to prolong his career ?


Federer at his peak made the finals back to back for many years, all that puts him ahead because there were better clay courters playing in the 00s than in the 2010s.
 
P

PETEhammer

Guest
Australia is not a hardcourt. Nole has 3 hardcourt slams to Pete's five. He has 9 Rebound and Plexi slams (this year it was something else can't remember) which makes him GOAT of those surfaces. And of course Pete has more Grass slams and better finals record in them.
 

Firstservingman

Talk Tennis Guru
a 1-2 h2h (dal vs djovid at us open) is neither here nor there really, i mean that's a one match swing to flip it and a tiny sample size.
djole has significantly more HC slams than Nadal and that's before you even look at YEC and other events. it's no contest
 

Firstservingman

Talk Tennis Guru
Australia is not a hardcourt. Nole has 3 hardcourt slams to Pete's five. He has 9 Rebound and Plexi slams (this year it was something else can't remember) which makes him GOAT of those surfaces. And of course Pete has more Grass slams and better finals record in them.
huh? of course it's a hard court

"hard court" is a broad term of course but that covers hard synthetic surface which it is. also cement. we cant break it down into every brand of man-made type surface lol

I guess clay isnt clay either since it's actually crushed brick and limestone underneath i think
 
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