Djokovic h2h vs Fedalray since he peaked on all surfaces and conditions

VS Nadal

Outdoor HC: 9-2 Djokovic
Indoor HC: 2-0 Djokovic
Grass: 2-0 Djokovic
Clay: 7-7

VS Federer

Outdoor HC: 9-4 Djokovic
Indoor HC: 4-1 Djokovic
Grass: 2-1 Djokovic
Clay: 3-2 Djokovic

VS Murray

Outdoor HC 14-4 Djokovic
Indoor HC 3-1 Djokovic
Grass 2-0 Murray
Clay 3-1 Djokovic

Unbelieveable.:eek:
Novak’s age differential with Roger Federer at birth (in Earth years):

-6

Age differential at Novak’s peak:

-6

Age differential currently at Federer age of 37:

-6

Age differential for eternity:

-6

Current H2H. Fed 22 to 24 Novak

Current ranks:
Novak #4
Federer #2

UNBELIEVABLE!!
 
Novak’s age differential with Roger Federer at birth (in Earth years):

-6

Age differential at Novak’s peak:

-6

Age differential currently at Federer age of 37:

-6

Age differential for eternity:

-6

Current H2H. Fed 22 to 24 Novak

Current ranks:
Novak #4
Federer #2

UNBELIEVABLE!!
How on Earth is Fed still only 2 wins behind? Novak should be like 10 ahead at least now lol.
 
No pushback, just utter derision. He isn't anywhere near Nadal's slam count and that's what's deciding the debate. Nadal is firmly in #2 position and has been for a number of years.

I should clarify my comment. I already believe he's better all-around than Nadal and he's number #2 imo, but he needs to narrow the slam gap first. I don't believe he needs to tie or surpass Nadal in slams to be considered greater when you take into account their entire resumes. Finishing within one slam of Nadal would be enough. Tough task, but I think Novak is up for it
 
I made a post earlier that referenced this but here is a breakdown, using my subjective (but I believe consistent) definitions of prime. I'm not re-debating those here
Any rivalry has these phases, older player vs younger player (or more accurately, earlier emerger vs later emerger).

Pre-Prime vs Pre-Prime: even? (slight edge to earlier player)
Prime vs Pre-Prime: edge to earlier player
Prime vs Prime: even
Post-Prime vs Prime: edge to later player
Post-Prime vs Post-Prime: even? (slight edge to later player)

Often, the later emerger winds up with the career H2H edge because the Post-Prime phase is longer than the Pre-Prime phase, giving them more of a prolonged "dinosaur beating" phase to rack up wins. A good example of this is Lendl vs McEnroe, which was dead even when Mac entered his "post-prime" phase, and Lendl won 6/7.

Federer vs Djokovic

Prime vs Pre-Prime: 7-2 (7 HC, 2 clay)
Prime vs Prime: 7-7 (12 HC, 2 clay)
Post-Prime vs Prime: 8-14 (15 HC, 4 clay, 3 grass)
Post-Prime vs Post-Prime: 0-1 (1 HC)

Nadal vs Djokovic
Prime vs Pre-Prime: 10-4 (7 HC, 5 clay, 2 grass)
Prime vs Prime: 12-14 (14 HC, 11 clay, 1 grass)
Post-Prime vs Prime: 1-8 (4 HC, 5 clay)
Post-Prime vs Post-Prime: 2-1 (2 clay, 1 grass)

--- both of those basically go as you would expect
The player who emerged first had a decided edge before the other player hit their prime
When both were in their prime, it was essentially 50/50
When the earlier emerging player started to decline, the later emerging player had a decided edge.

Federer vs Nadal
Prime vs Pre-Prime: 1-3 (3 HC, 1 clay)
Prime vs Prime: 7-14 (5 HC, 13 clay, 3 grass)
Post-Prime vs Prime: 2-6 (5 HC, 1 clay)
Post-Prime vs Post-Prime: 5-0 (5 HC)

8 year primes
Fed Prime: mid-2003 to mid-2011
Nadal Prime: summer 2006 to summer 2014
Djokovic Prime: late 2008 to late 2016
djokovic was nowhere near top level or prime 2009
 
Doesn't discount Agassi was super hard to put away even as an old man. This is a guy that was winning Masters and other big titles whenever Federer lost early.

Even in 2004 Agassi made the Australian Open SF (lost to Safin in 5 sets), Indian Wells SF (lost in 3 sets to Federer), won Cincinnati (beating Roddick and Hewitt back to back), Madrid SF (losing to Safin playing one of his 'great' matches) and barely missing out on the Masters Cup (he would've qualified given he was #8 in the world but Gaudio won a major and I'm positive he'd have done well given he made the final in '03).

I don't think Federer was much better than that if at all in 2014-2015 by the way.
Agassi 04 was comparable to Fed 11 on hard, at least outdoors. Actually, he might have been better outdoors.
 
Agassi 04 was comparable to Fed 11 on hard, at least outdoors. Actually, he might have been better outdoors.

Very underrated by posters here tbh. He would have the game to take 2010 USO Nadal and 2011 USO Djokovic to 5 sets at the USO. His Cincinnati run in 2004 was also very good from what I saw. People seem to think 2014-2018 Federer would easily beat him, but that's just plain ridiculous IMO. Federer is vulnerable to flat hitting and people who can return his serve with interest. Agassi could do both. Agassi is also at hitting off the rise and had the better FH+BH combo (stronger from both wings actually) compared to 2014-2018 Federer.
 
In 2015 and early 2016 the top-4/5/8 players set the record of the most atp points ever.

Sure a weak era. ;)
 
VS Nadal

Outdoor HC: 9-2 Djokovic
Indoor HC: 2-0 Djokovic
Grass: 2-0 Djokovic
Clay: 7-7

VS Federer

Outdoor HC: 9-4 Djokovic
Indoor HC: 4-1 Djokovic
Grass: 2-1 Djokovic
Clay: 3-2 Djokovic

VS Murray

Outdoor HC 14-4 Djokovic
Indoor HC 3-1 Djokovic
Grass 2-0 Murray
Clay 3-1 Djokovic

Unbelieveable.:eek:
That is unbelievable, but Nadal's slam H2H against the others is simply oombeeleevobul, no? :D
 
In 2015 and early 2016 the top-4/5/8 players set the record of the most atp points ever.

Sure a weak era. ;)
Shiitverev's era is coming down the proverbial pipes. Get ready to flush anytime now. That will be a diarrheal (not proverbial) era.
 
For other players standards yes for his no. I know you followed tennis, so you know about the change of racquets, todd martin the serve etc. He was miles off
I think that was his playing prime. You might just equate prime to peak and that would make a lot more sense to me considering your argument, but I believe there's a difference between prime and peak. 2011 was his peak. You couldn't get a better version of Novak in other words.

2014-2016 again was a repeat of his peak.

But I consider 2007-2010 and 2012-2014 his playing prime too. 2017 obviously is an off year and this year may be a return to prime or even peak levels.
 
VS Nadal

Outdoor HC: 9-2 Djokovic
Indoor HC: 2-0 Djokovic
Grass: 2-0 Djokovic
Clay: 7-7

VS Federer

Outdoor HC: 9-4 Djokovic
Indoor HC: 4-1 Djokovic
Grass: 2-1 Djokovic
Clay: 3-2 Djokovic

VS Murray

Outdoor HC 14-4 Djokovic
Indoor HC 3-1 Djokovic
Grass 2-0 Murray
Clay 3-1 Djokovic

Unbelieveable.:eek:
7-7 against the King of Clay is the most impressive stat, since he's only 1 year younger.

Stats against Fed are less impressive to me because Fed turned 30 in the summer of 2011 - unless Djokovic can hold off all challengers for the next few years as he too navigates the "over 30" waters.
 
7-7 against the King of Clay is the most impressive stat, since he's only 1 year younger.

Stats against Fed are less impressive to me because Fed turned 30 in the summer of 2011 - unless Djokovic can hold off all challengers for the next few years as he too navigates the "over 30" waters.

Since 2011 Federer has a 2.6 points higher winning percentage than Nadal playing 63 more matches:

federer 425-82 (83.8%)
nadal 356-88 (80.2%)

bold part:

What does Djokovic has to do with Federer's longevity? :confused: So Ferrer shouldn't have been successful in his 30s because other players weren't?
 
I should clarify my comment. I already believe he's better all-around than Nadal and he's number #2 imo, but he needs to narrow the slam gap first. I don't believe he needs to tie or surpass Nadal in slams to be considered greater when you take into account their entire resumes. Finishing within one slam of Nadal would be enough. Tough task, but I think Novak is up for it
opinions are like a**h0l**, everyone has one.

so what you feel, is your business, but don't state it as fact.

Djokovic is currently tied for #4 in the slam count.

he's not #2!
 
Since 2011 Federer has a 2.6 points higher winning percentage than Nadal playing 63 more matches:

federer 425-82 (83.8%)
nadal 356-88 (80.2%)

just wait until Nadal has a few more 'selective' seasons as Federer has had the last 2 years!

his winning % will most certainly rise even more.

we all know which % really counts, and thats slam final winning %.

and guess who is on top?
 
just wait until Nadal has a few more 'selective' seasons as Federer has had the last 2 years!

his winning % will most certainly rise even more.

we all know which % really counts, and thats slam final winning %.

and guess who is on top?

Federer had to deal with Djokovic on his best surfaces. Without him since 2011 he could have won double digit slams and 4/5 yec.
 
What does Djokovic has to do with Federer's longevity? :confused:

For decades players have faded after age 30. ATGs with a lot of majors don't normally play at the same high level after age 30 as in the middle 20s. Ferrer and Wawrinka are outliers because neither attained the level they should have while they were young, and this is also true of Agassi.

So if Djokovic is able to have a 2011 or 2015 level year a couple more times AND continue to play a ton of matches, he will be first. And I'm not saying he won't or can't do it, only that we can't credit him with amazingly longevity and amazing over 30 accomplishments until they happen. But he is well on his way this year.
 
I think that was his playing prime. You might just equate prime to peak and that would make a lot more sense to me considering your argument, but I believe there's a difference between prime and peak. 2011 was his peak. You couldn't get a better version of Novak in other words.

2014-2016 again was a repeat of his peak.

But I consider 2007-2010 and 2012-2014 his playing prime too. 2017 obviously is an off year and this year may be a return to prime or even peak levels.
I disagree, the davis cup in 2010 was huge for him in terms of his career. I cant really see how thats prime, this is why I disagree with a bunch of people regardind youth = prime. Most players are closer to prime form in their early 30s than early 20s. Once again this is because of the massive increase in money in the last 20 years
 
I disagree, the davis cup in 2010 was huge for him in terms of his career. I cant really see how thats prime, this is why I disagree with a bunch of people regardind youth = prime. Most players are closer to prime form in their early 30s than early 20s. Once again this is because of the massive increase in money in the last 20 years
But he was a monster in 2008 too. You can't discount his play that year because he hadn't hit his physical and or mental peak yet.
 
Federer had to deal with Djokovic on his best surfaces. Without him since 2011 he could have won double digit slams and 4/5 yec.
not really.

without Djokovic, Nadal probably would have benefitted more than Federer, depending on Nadal's injuries.
 
just wait until Nadal has a few more 'selective' seasons as Federer has had the last 2 years!

his winning % will most certainly rise even more.

we all know which % really counts, and thats slam final winning %.

and guess who is on top?

federer from 2011-2016 = 337/408 (82.6%)

still higher than :
nadal 356-88 (80.2%)
 
not really.

without Djokovic, Nadal probably would have benefitted more than Federer, depending on Nadal's injuries.

since 2011 Federer lost to Nole 7 grand slam matches and 4 yec finals/semis.

Nadal lost to Djokovic 5 slam matches and 2 yec finals/semis.
 
you Nadal haters can't argue for freaking years that Nadal was peak in 2011 and if it wasn't for Djokovic he would have won everything and now claim its was Federer that was mostly affected by Djokovic!

the 2 are not compatible!

don't be silly.

w/o Djokovic, Nadal's momentum would not have been hindered, he would have won more slams, and most likely maintained his dominance over Federer just like he was before.
 
If we are trying to assess Andre Agassi's achievements in a given year, I think how he played against the entire field is the critical measure. If he gets to the QF of a tournament by beating #32, but then loses to #2, that is not necessarily better or worse than getting there by beating #2, only to lose to #32. I completely agree with that.

However, if we are evaluating how much of a threat Andre Agassi posed to the top players, then I think it's extremely relevant to look at how he was performing against the top players. If that's the question, in the example above, beating #32 but losing to #2 does not give evidence that he is a threat to the elite. Beating #2 and losing to #32 does. A clearer example of this is what we do every single time a tournament draw is revealed, and (to use an example better suited to several years ago) if David Ferrer and Jo-Wilfred Tsonga are carrying similar records and seedings, we still say that the player who drew Ferrer has it easier because he is much less of a threat to a top player.

All I'm saying is that while Agassi was still a very good player when Federer started beating him (2003), he was no longer as big a threat to the elite as he had been in his prime.

What years are his prime though? With Agassi it's not as straight forward as picking consecutive years.
 
you Nadal haters can't argue for freaking years that Nadal was peak in 2011 and if it wasn't for Djokovic he would have won everything and now claim its was Federer that was mostly affected by Djokovic!

the 2 are not compatible!

don't be silly.

w/o Djokovic, Nadal's momentum would not have been hindered, he would have won more slams, and most likely maintained his dominance over Federer just like he was before.
Federer too was affected by Djokovic even if he wasn't prime when those losses occurred. Maybe his momentum wouldn't have stopped, but the injuries would have still appeared eventually, if not in 2012, then probably in 2013.

And I'm not giving 2011 USO to Nadal. At best he would have bern 50/50 agsinst Fed.

It's not about hating. It's a fact. Without Novak Nadal gains 4 more slams. Without Novak, Fed gains 6 more slams. Even if he wasn't prime in most of those losses, there was no one else stopping him anyway, so he did lose many slams to Novak. More than Rafa.

So yeah, like I said it's BS.
 
Federer too was affected by Djokovic even if he wasn't prime when those losses occurred. Maybe his momentum wouldn't have stopped, but the injuries would have still appeared eventually, if not in 2012, then probably in 2013.

And I'm not giving 2011 USO to Nadal. At best he would have bern 50/50 agsinst Fed.

It's not about hating. It's a fact. Without Novak Nadal gains 4 more slams. Without Novak, Fed gains 6 more slams. Even if he wasn't prime in most of those losses, there was no one else stopping him anyway, so he did lose many slams to Novak. More than Rafa.

So yeah, like I said it's BS.
What you eat is bs.
 
But he was a monster in 2008 too. You can't discount his play that year because he hadn't hit his physical and or mental peak yet.
I wouldnt call him a monster he did well but consistency wasnt as high and for those reasons I dont believe he was in his prime, he still had much to learm about his game and his health too
 
I wouldnt call him a monster he did well but consistency wasnt as high and for those reasons I dont believe he was in his prime, he still had much to learm about his game and his health too
He beat prime Federer in a GS match, won a major, spent the whole year at #3, ect. On hardcourt he definitely showed prime level stuff. Across all surfaces not so much true.

But I still can't discount his play just because he wasn't at his physical peak, ect. He was a monster on hardcourt.
 
He beat prime Federer in a GS match, won a major, spent the whole year at #3, ect. On hardcourt he definitely showed prime level stuff. Across all surfaces not so much true.

But I still can't discount his play just because he wasn't at his physical peak, ect. He was a monster on hardcourt.
than we can say that fed was in his prime in 2014-15
 
than we can say that fed was in his prime in 2014-15
He didn't go through Djokovic to win anything and he had the same aura Federer had in 2004-2007 around that time. Credit to Djokovic for going though him.

I just cannot discount that spectacular Australian Open run.

I guess in a way you could say Agassi was in his prime when he was in his early to mid 30s too (2000-2004). So if you want to take that point of view go for it. Like I've said to @ABCD there's no proving or disproving the argument. It's all opinions.

In my opinion I think Federer AND Agassi played great tennis in their early to mid 30s but they weren't at their best or in their "prime". But it's just my opinion.
 
So moral of the story: Nadal & Djokovic have a clay peak, grass court peak, hard peak entries at different points of time in their careers but Federer is permanently in his peak in every court (even in 2013, 2016, 2018) at all times in his career.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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