4UTRMoutet
Hall of Fame
Not sure about Alcaraz but the other Big 2 yeah for sure.
Djokovic has beaten peak versions of Federer, Nadal, Alcaraz and Sinner. Do you agree?
- Thread starter junkieballer
- Start date
MeatTornado
Talk Tennis Guru
Peak Fed only existed for about 6 hours. 'Twas a glorious time.
GoatNo1
Legend
fact
but not just once
he beat peak fed many times, beginning at montreal 2007 when he beat all top3 players to win a title.
and as rafas peer he beat peak rafa many times too
and he beat peak raz at RG22 (he was no1) and AO25 and cinci 2023
and he beat peak sinner and peak raz at WTF23
but even those players beat peak or close to peak/prime nole as well. just not as many time as he beat peak or close to peak/prime versions of them.
and moreover he beat peak or prime fed at W and peak or prime rafa at CC masters finals and RG multiple times. and raz at CC (both at RG and OG) and sinner at HC and indoors (AO and WTF)!!!
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GoatNo1
Legend
he beat no1 raz at RG and raz who just won RG and W b2b at OG! he beat him last season at AO and at cinci F and WTF in 2023!
junkieballer
Legend
GoatNo1
Legend
and AO08 is just that, excuses not more. even W finals that fed lost. or WTF finals. if not in his peak fed was surely in his prime. he has not dropped so much as filed become stronger. when rafa after 09 become great on all surfaces and nole, muzza, potro, wawa ect.... it is another dimension than roddyc, hewitt, baghdatis, philippoussis, denko, ljuba, blake ect...
GRASScaraz
Hall of Fame
Alcaraz has beaten:
- peak Djokovic at Wimbledon 2023 (Djokovic won all Slams on grass from 2018 Wim to 2022)
- peak Nadal at 2022 Madrid (coming into the match 22-1 for the year)
-peak Murray at 2021 Vienna (Murray had just morally beaten Tsitsipas at USO and would go on to beat Sinner the week after)
- peak Djokovic at Wimbledon 2023 (Djokovic won all Slams on grass from 2018 Wim to 2022)
- peak Nadal at 2022 Madrid (coming into the match 22-1 for the year)
-peak Murray at 2021 Vienna (Murray had just morally beaten Tsitsipas at USO and would go on to beat Sinner the week after)
Hitman
Bionic Poster
I know Djokovic haters will make every excuse for everything he ever does. I compiled this list from the Djokovic haters, who have found a way to take away from every single big win he had.
AO 2008 - Lucky, only won it because Federer had mono.
AO 2011 - Lucky that Federer was already past his prime, had he faced Federer from 2004-2007 he would have lost. Also lucky surface changed for him, doesn't win on Rebound Ace.
W 2011 - Lucky that Tsonga got rid of Federer, because we all saw what Federer did in 2012 when they played
USO 2011 - Lucky shot 40-15 against Federer, he should have lost
AO 2012 - Lucky Nadal missed the BHDTL, otherwise Nadal wins AO
AO 2013 - Lucky the call went against Wawrinka, Djokovic was losing and going out.
W 2014 - Lucky he didn't have to face prime Federer from 2004-2007 like Nadal did
AO 2015 - Lucky that his main rivals are past their prime and Wawrinka played badly in the semi
W 2015 - Lucky he got 30s Federer, he doesn't beat prime Federer
USO 2015 - Lucky that Federer choked so many BPs
AO 2016 - Lucky he had weak competition
RG 2016 - Lucky his best competition was Murray
W 2018 - Lucky there was a roof or he loses to Nadal
USO 2018 - Lucky he had a weak draw, Nadal had all the tough players, then got his pigeon Del Potro in the final
AO 2019 - Lucky that Nadal was coming back from ankle injury and wasn't match fit
W 2019 - Lucky for the epic Federer choke on 40-15 CP, he should have lost
AO 2020 - Lucky for Thiem choking away a 2-1 lead in the final
AO 2021 - Lucky for weak competition, and Medvedev choking
RG 2021 - Lucky that Nadal was injured and Tsitsipas choked a 2-0 set lead
W 2021 - Lucky for having no grass players, weakest competition ever
W 2022 - Lucky for playing his biggest fanboy Kyrgios in the final and Nadal getting injured
AO 2023 - Lucky for a weak draw with Tsitsipas being pathetic in the final
RG 2023 - Lucky that Alcaraz cramped and gave the match away, and he got Ruud in the final
US 2023 - Lucky that he had an easy draw and Medvedev laid an egg in the final
Olympics 2024 - He was lucky it was best of three, he would lost otherwise
junkieballer
Legend
a Masters quarterfinal is far from peak, and Nadal barely beat Goffin in the round before (11-9 in the deciding tiebreak)
LOL
junior74
Bionic Poster
Everything seems to be correct, but you missed "Lucky Federer got injured in AO20. The first seven games was the highest level of all time"
AntonZweck
Professional
Probably not becuase he peaked later while older guards were holding their respective peaks for as long as they can.
Hitman
Bionic Poster
Not really needed, because its the Thiem in the final that everyone complains about the most. Federer's presence in the semis is put down as much as possible to devalue the win.
junior74
Bionic Poster
Fair enough. He got lucky in the final, too, after all.
Tenez01
Semi-Pro
Have compiled all the Fedal coping bible:
1) Fed had age disadvantage as he was 6 years older than Djokovic.
2) Fed had 1HBH which is a disadvantage and needs to be taken into account.
3) Fed dominated so strong that he made it look like weak era, when it was actually not.
4) ATP Finals is an exho because Nadal never won it.
5) Nadal has 11-7 h2h over Djokovic in GS hence he's the big daddy, so what if 10/18 of the matches were at RG? It was Nole's fault to be consistent at RG instead of losing before QF like Nadal at Wimbledon 2012-17.
6) Any achievements after age 27 are inflated.
7) 2018-23 is weak era where Nole vultured and should not be counted as valid.
8) Nole never dominated "mugs" like Murray and Wawrinka during 2011-16, unlike Fed hence it gives illusion of strong era.
9) Money and fame is paramount in Tennis, Federer is GOAT and will be long remembered but Nole will be forgotten as a random guy in public's eyes.
10) Nole is a poor guy in exile from his country and is evading taxes hence can never be GOAT.
11) Nole never beat Federer at Wimbledon till 2014 until he got too old and had a close match in 2019, hence everything from 2014 Wimbledon is weak era.
12) Nole's wins over Nadal at RG are invalid and do not count hence Nole never beat peak Rafa hence can't be GOAT.
13) Nole didn't beat peak Alcaraz on clay and peak Sinner on HC, it was either they were tired or it was luck. Never mind that it was the reigning champions of Roland Garros or the 2 time defending champion of AO, which was between a great run from winner of Paris Masters & ATP Finals and the sunshine double sweep.
14) Nole is weak as 36 is new 26, he's losing to Sincaraz hence he's not GOAT.
15) Nole should get inspired by Fedal and lose to lower ranked players instead of losing to Sincaraz to preserve his already "flimsy" legacy of vulturing.
16) 2-1 H2H at US Open - Nadal has better peak on HC at the premier HC slam, no one cares about AO.
Feel free to add more
junkieballer
Legend
Djokovic had it easier because there are more tournaments on hardcourt than clay.
Djokovic is not GOAT because he has not won Olympics (this excuse is not used anymore since 2024 August).
The surfaces became slower.
junkieballer
Legend
GoatNo1
Legend
and the best excuse ever... he did not have YOUNGER ATG!!!
as that to have older and peer ATG is somehow better than to have 5-6 years younger ATG.
fed did not have less than 10 years older and less than 5 years younger ATG. while nole had (little less than) 6 years older fed (playing on a very high level for a very long time), (little less than) a year older rafa (with very long longevity too), a week older muzza (who is better and greater all around player than any of feds peers), wawa (who is also a greater big match and slam player than any of fed peers), delpo (who is in the same tier as the best of feds peers), thiem and players that are better than most of top players in feds era as med, zver, tsitsi plus at the end raz and sinner (who nole already played more than 10 timnes each)!
that why nole played and won way more top10 matches than fed despite fed has played and won way more overall matches than nole!
Third Serve
Talk Tennis Guru
Firstly, I take the word peak to mean the player was at his very best when the match happened. So no I don't think y'all can take this one.
Fed was not bad in the 2008 AO SF but his FH was really loose and he grew fairly tired by the third set, owing probably to the bout of mono. Djokovic fans denying the effect of mono on Fed's level in this part of the season is basically moon landing denial levels of nuttiness. 2007 Montreal was a better performance from him but even that wasn't an amazing match from either player imo (still pretty good, just not amazing).
I think it's more accurate to say that Djokovic defeated prime Fed that day because that's a definition that ought to be applied to a broader period (a period that I think is best defined as 2004-2009). However...
Secondly, even if you go with the softer word, prime, you still need to look at the specific match in question because even players in their primes have significant off days. Prime Fed lost to Murray in Cincinnati 2006 but no one who watched that match would seriously equate his performance to that in the US Open that year.
Thirdly, Fed also has wins over prime Djokovic. And Nadal has wins over prime Djokovic as well. You could argue that due to the skew of matches favoring the 2011-2015 period, Fed actually beat prime Djokovic more total times than vice versa. Point is that these players are all good enough that they are capable of beating each other even when they are all playing well, so a clean, simple conclusion can't really be drawn here.
Fed was not bad in the 2008 AO SF but his FH was really loose and he grew fairly tired by the third set, owing probably to the bout of mono. Djokovic fans denying the effect of mono on Fed's level in this part of the season is basically moon landing denial levels of nuttiness. 2007 Montreal was a better performance from him but even that wasn't an amazing match from either player imo (still pretty good, just not amazing).
I think it's more accurate to say that Djokovic defeated prime Fed that day because that's a definition that ought to be applied to a broader period (a period that I think is best defined as 2004-2009). However...
Secondly, even if you go with the softer word, prime, you still need to look at the specific match in question because even players in their primes have significant off days. Prime Fed lost to Murray in Cincinnati 2006 but no one who watched that match would seriously equate his performance to that in the US Open that year.
Thirdly, Fed also has wins over prime Djokovic. And Nadal has wins over prime Djokovic as well. You could argue that due to the skew of matches favoring the 2011-2015 period, Fed actually beat prime Djokovic more total times than vice versa. Point is that these players are all good enough that they are capable of beating each other even when they are all playing well, so a clean, simple conclusion can't really be drawn here.
Third Serve
Talk Tennis Guru
The intentional exclusion of the Tipsarevic match is very amusing. Not a bad troll effort!
CoolCoolCool
Hall of Fame
"Peak" and "prime" aren't interchangeable terms, they don't mean the same thing. I'd say he did beat peak Rog in 2007 and peak Sinner at AO, but he "only" beat prime versions of Rafa and Raz.
junkieballer
Legend
I literally addressed the Tipsarevic match in that post
GoatNo1
Legend
this ne is actually fabulous! especially for CC.
nole has 3-1 RG titles and 7 to 5 finals. 11 to 6 masters, and got all 3 of them at least 2 time while fed never won rome or MC. nole has OG on clay (beating rafa, tsitsi and ras on his way). he won RG beating rafa and won twice vs rafa at RG. he has 21 to feds 11 overall clay titles. 15 to 7 big titles.
BUT, fed is actually better because he won that one match at RG11 SF AND because he LOST to "better version" of rafa than nole won!!!
as for some rafa fans that says that rafa is better HC players due 2-1 h2h at USO!
4UTRMoutet
Hall of Fame
Raz was far shakier in 2024, hence he wasn't in his prime. His actual prime began in the clay season of 2025 or quite possibly because he's so young he hasn't had his prime yet.
CoolCoolCool
Hall of Fame
Imo saying he wasn't in his prime in 2024 is already comical, but saying he's still not in his prime is pure madness. It's like some of you guys expect him to eventually win every match with a double/triple bagel, throw lightning and fly in the air. Prime level isn't some kind of mythical state making ATGs invincible all the time, they're human. You have unrealistic expectations.
4UTRMoutet
Hall of Fame
Prime isn't a threshold, it's a peak. He's still young so there's the possibility he isn't at his best.
CoolCoolCool
Hall of Fame
It's not, peak is a shorter time window in which a player reach their absolute best level, which is impossible to determine as long as his best years aren't behind him. But he very clearly reached his prime already.
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
If they keep bringing this up as an excuse everytime the match is mentioned, then yes it is the loss they have a hard time accepting. 15 years after this match Djokovic won his 10th AO title and and only loss one set to Federer in that timeframe, but of course he only won in 2008 because Federer had mono. 9 times out of 10, the conversation leads with mono and not the high level Djokovic played, which was one of the best matches Djokovic played in his AO career.
People can decipher whatever someone's peak is to their heart's content. There is no standard and it's subjective tbh. Not everyone will agree. Besides Djokovic beat all of them at ages 21-26 when they were holding multiple Slams so that in itself renders the peak angle irrelevant. He beat Federer in 2007 Canada and 2008 AO when he was holding 3 Slams; he beat Nadal in 2011 when he was holding 3 Slams; he beat Alcaraz in the 2024 OIympic final when he was holding 2 Slams; he beat Sinner in the 2026 AO when he was holding 2 Slams.
4UTRMoutet
Hall of Fame
You get the point, prime is a general time frame of the highest level of a player. You cannot say for sure what a player's prime is if that said player is 22 years old. Typical prime age occurs around 25-28 or somewhere in that ballpark.
Rosstour
Talk Tennis Guru
Alcaraz hasn’t hit his peak yet, is my biggest quibble with this. And I think Sinner ‘24-25 was stronger than the version Djoko beat.
Djoko had owned Musetti and was getting worked. If Lorenzo doesn’t pull up injured leading 2-0 sets, we’re having an entirely different conversation about where Djoko is now
CoolCoolCool
Hall of Fame
ATGs in tennis tend to reach their prime before 25, which represents the middle point rather than the starting one. Raz's results and level of play show he's already past that point. The guy just achieved the CGS ffs.
GoatNo1
Legend
i see
the main criteria of prime!
if nole wins so is his opponent not in prime. does not matter if he wins a lot and if he is no1 in the world. nole can not win vs prime ATG players!
junkieballer
Legend
junkieballer
Legend
GoatNo1
Legend
and most of rafa fans says that rafas era was 08-13! i do not think that rafa had his era. but i agree that his alraund peak was 08-13. even if his highest points was after AO14. his best seasons was 10 and 13. but if not for nole his best season would be 11.
so it is not just that nole beat peak rafa, but he had 7-0 run vs peak rafa in 7 big finals on all surfaces inclusive some big finals on clay masters and 3 slam finals in a row!!!!!
GoatNo1
Legend
what was it before RG21 vs rafa?ATGs are peak before playing Novak but become too young or too old after the match
junkieballer
Legend
the poll is still open, so people might have voted after the match.
The odds were:
Nole +235
Rafa -275
GoatNo1
Legend
???
how many wote or nole and how many for rafa?
junkieballer
Legend
155 Nadal, 90 Djokovic, but as I said the poll is open so people might have voted after the match. It's better if you read the posts, almost everyone predicted Nadal to win:
GoatNo1
Legend
so 63% for rafa and 37% for nole.155 Nadal, 90 Djokovic, but as I said the poll is open so people might have voted after the match. It's better if you read the posts, almost everyone predicted Nadal to win:
of course they did, rafa become old and injured during the mach. it is miraculous how playing nole can speed up aging process!
....
i see... the vast majority of comments are saying rafa or rafa with easy
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junkieballer
Legend
In the first 5 games Nadal rejuvanated, then from 5-0 in the first set the aging process became lightning fast.
objection_
Professional
The guy was so healthy and in such good physical form he only played 2 more matches the whole year 
junkieballer
Legend
Impossible to know whether he got injured during the match or after the match. Until 5-0 he was certainly fine, and the third set is one of the best ever so he was fine until the 3d set at least.The guy was so healthy and in such good physical form he only played 2 more matches the whole year
objection_
Professional
Would probably place it around early in the 4th set, Rafa looked almost as if he gave up which basically never happens on clay. Give partial credit to Djoko for making it physical enough for Rafa's body to give out... also helps your idol in the fact that many people claim that, had Nadal converted his set point in the third, he would've gone on to win the match, when in reality, Nadal would've been cooked in the next 2 sets.
GoatNo1
Legend
nole broke him.The guy was so healthy and in such good physical form he only played 2 more matches the whole year
that was odds before the match... and this is rafas interview before tthe match
he very vast majority predict rafas pretty easy victory.
he won rome masters before that RG beating nole in the F.
this is his results up to that SF
QF D. Schwartzman (10) 63 46 64 60
R16 J. Sinner (19) 75 63 60
R32C. Norrie (45) 63 63 63
R64R. Gasquet (53) 60 75 62
R128A. Popyrin (63) 63 62 76(3)
5 easy wins, 3 bagels, 1 lost set. 13 lost games in a match as the worst!
objection_
Professional
Your point?
GoatNo1
Legend
so he maybe get injured in 4rt set with 1-2 in sets and ??? nole won it 6-2...
he lost the match as the favorit fair and square.
jl809
Legend
I don’t agree, but also don’t think it matters and I don’t doubt his ability to get / have got wins against those guys
I’d say 05-06 was Fed’s peak but he was close enough in 07 US summer (for example) plus it’s unfair to discredit Djoker for not beating him in those years considering he was a lil baby. Djoker has other wins over a Fed who was playing reminiscent of his peak too (eg ATPF 12) to make me sure that he would have got at least some wins in 05-06 if a direct contemporary
He has multiple wins over peak Ned including 08 Cincy, 12 AO, 13 Asia + indoor, etc
Peak Alcaraz, too early to say for sure. The guy is still younger than when Fed or Djokovic peaked on any surface. Has he beaten a Raz close to the peak that we’ve seen from Raz on any surface so far? Oly 24 is closest.. so probably. AO 25, absolutely not
Peak Sinner… this is interesting. Time will tell for this year. If he tears it up for the rest of the season, having finished last season post USO so strongly, then yes, Djokovic beat a peak Sinner at AO 26. Sure, Sinner wasn’t peak on the day but that doesn’t matter. Also.. I know people are saying he’s been down on his 24/25 HC level until recently, but Sinner’s competition at USO 24 / AO 25 was so mid that it’s hard to say for sure that he actually regressed on HC when it came to USO 25/AO 26. For all we know, if he’d played someone playing as well as AO 26 Djoker did but at AO 25, he might have lost that title too. Certainly would have lost at USO 24 to USO 25 Raz
I’d say 05-06 was Fed’s peak but he was close enough in 07 US summer (for example) plus it’s unfair to discredit Djoker for not beating him in those years considering he was a lil baby. Djoker has other wins over a Fed who was playing reminiscent of his peak too (eg ATPF 12) to make me sure that he would have got at least some wins in 05-06 if a direct contemporary
He has multiple wins over peak Ned including 08 Cincy, 12 AO, 13 Asia + indoor, etc
Peak Alcaraz, too early to say for sure. The guy is still younger than when Fed or Djokovic peaked on any surface. Has he beaten a Raz close to the peak that we’ve seen from Raz on any surface so far? Oly 24 is closest.. so probably. AO 25, absolutely not
Peak Sinner… this is interesting. Time will tell for this year. If he tears it up for the rest of the season, having finished last season post USO so strongly, then yes, Djokovic beat a peak Sinner at AO 26. Sure, Sinner wasn’t peak on the day but that doesn’t matter. Also.. I know people are saying he’s been down on his 24/25 HC level until recently, but Sinner’s competition at USO 24 / AO 25 was so mid that it’s hard to say for sure that he actually regressed on HC when it came to USO 25/AO 26. For all we know, if he’d played someone playing as well as AO 26 Djoker did but at AO 25, he might have lost that title too. Certainly would have lost at USO 24 to USO 25 Raz
CoolCoolCool
Hall of Fame
His peak was 2008-2010. He was still extremely good in 11-13, but not as good.
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