Djokovic has declined but how much exactly

nolefam_2024

Bionic Poster
Tennis abstract gives very good charting of matches for current players. Based on last 52 weeks and comparing it to career, we can see if the player's game is declining now or getting better. For older guys, obviously it will not improve but certain areas of game can improve.



Djokovic match rally length average changed from 4.7 for career to 4.6. This means he is trying to end the point quicker. 0.1 difference may not feel much but its a lot over many matches. Its around 2.5% more. We can see that he is playing 2.5% quicker than in the past. His rally aggression, that is the ability to finish points has gone up from -50 to -48 which is not that high a jump. For aggressive players it is near 0 or positive in modern game. Alcaraz is -2, Medvedev is -103 which shows he wants to extend the points. While Shelton is +11.
So Djokovic is not bailing out of the points as much more than before.

Now there can be reasons for this. He is using dropshot more now, from 1.6% to 2%. And dropshot is very dangerous shot. Djokovic outright wins only 29% of points from it, but he may be able to win more than 50% of pts from dropshot. Still this is not a big difference maker.

What has changed a lot is S&V frequency and net frequency.
Djokovic who used to go to S&V 2.2 % of the times has now increased it to 6.5%. This is as good as Alcaraz's S&V frequency. He has also ended more pts at the net from 11% to 14%. While increasing the net presence, he has slightly improved % pts won at the net as well so overall its net benefit.

Coming to the serve, Djokovic has not served better than he does today. We can forget about the ace count and DF count. Serve impact is to measure how much the serve influences points won even when the return comes back. The formula used here reflects the average men’s player in the 2010s: unreturned serves, plus 50% of first-serve points won on the server’s second shot, plus 40% of first-serve points won on the server’s third shot, plus 20% of first-serve points won on the server’s fourth shot, all divided by the number of serve points.
Djokovic has improved serve impact from 33.9% to 38%. He is winning 38% of pts from the serve alone in service game. Even when serve comes back, he is winning 62% of pts compared to 59% for his career.

Now the return is one area where we will possibly see any chink in his armour.
Djokovic is returning 70.7% of pts today compared to 72.2% through entire career. Now this is a big drop. Even if though he is winning 52.7% of pts on return today compared to 52.5% in the past, its still worse by around 2%. This has resulted in him creating less number of breaks than in the past. He is hitting more aggressive winners hitting only 3.1% of returns as slices compared to 8.7% in the past. So he is going for more winners, possibly trying to get early advantage like Federer in his old age.

Finally groundstrokes. This is just an area where Djokovic has gone up a level. He possibly understood that he is like a wall even if he is playing power baseline tennis, and has amped up aggression.
Djokovic forehand potency and backhand potency both have improved.

Djokovic forehand potency has gone from 12.1 to 13.1 while backhand potency has gone from 4.2 to 6.3. This means he is winning more pts on both sides topspin than before. Although backhand slice % has gone from 14.1 to 16.3. This 2% pts are mostly going to have -1 potency so his backhand potency has been slightly increased and not by 2 pts.

So all in all.
On serve:
Winning more free pts on first as well as second serve and winning more pts overall even if serve comes back.

On return:
Only area where there is drop. Returning less points back but this is combined with modest return aggression increase.

On groundstroke :
Forehand has shown improvement (Over career so including bad times like 2005-10 as well)
Backhand show modest improvement

On net play :
Showed drastic improvement to end the points more at the net. Especially on his own serve. Djokovic is winning more than 70% of pts on S&V approaches and he is going to continue increasing this. This is only area after server where he has shown huge increase.

Slices:
Increased frequency modestly. He is not going to slice after every second backhand stroke even.

Dropshot:
Increased a lot. This is risky shot and Djokovic is planning to finish points either way (win or lose) without allowing opponent to extend the points.
 

nolefam_2024

Bionic Poster
Its remarkable that Djokovic is allowed to play his own game even at the age of 37 which is a testament to his fitness. He is slightly more aggressive in all areas but is winning the points still with regular consistent baseline tennis.

If Alcaraz and Sinner had not risen up, he would most likely be winning 4/4 slams in 2022 to 24. The next gen will not be able to stop him even with declined form. But even with Alcaraz and Sinner arrival, Djokovic has ability to win more pts because he is still better than these two at 37. What may give out is stamina but even that we need to see. Last time in RG Djokovic played two 2 five battles and was the fresher in both of the matches.
 

nolefam_2024

Bionic Poster
For 1, he's not whipping service winners anymore. Not even against run of the mill guys.
I guess you mean in last 2 matches
2 matches in heat + humidity mean very less and if you saw even medvedev and everyone else did make a lot of dfs

Djokovic serve statistics is calculated, its super impressive even for last 52 weeks
 

nolefam_2024

Bionic Poster
Novak’s stamina isn’t what it once was
yes, there is any way to check this though? He outlasted Musetti 6-0 in fifth and Cerundolo again. His Olympics final was played for close to 3 hrs for 2 sets and in second set he actually played better than in the first. 2 days back he out physicaled Djere who retired in extreme heat + humidity
 

scotus

G.O.A.T.
yes, there is any way to check this though? He outlasted Musetti 6-0 in fifth and Cerundolo again. His Olympics final was played for close to 3 hrs for 2 sets and in second set he actually played better than in the first. 2 days back he out physicaled Djere who retired in extreme heat + humidity
I suppose Novak still has the upper hand against the vast majority of the field, but against other top dogs like Alcaraz, Sinner, and Medvedev, you can no longer count on the super-resilient 5th set Djokovic.
 

nolefam_2024

Bionic Poster
I suppose Novak still has the upper hand against the vast majority of the field, but against other top dogs like Alcaraz, Sinner, and Medvedev, you can no longer count on the super-resilient 5th set Djokovic.
You are right about Alcaraz and it was shown in Wimbledon 2023. And I agree his stamina was not same as before but I still think its better than Sinner's.
Medvedev is a freak and Nole can no longer match his stamina but he is limited player. Nole was not able to match Meddy as far back as 2021 itself.
 

Lleytonstation

Talk Tennis Guru
I suppose Novak still has the upper hand against the vast majority of the field, but against other top dogs like Alcaraz, Sinner, and Medvedev, you can no longer count on the super-resilient 5th set Djokovic.
Yeah, he can not have walkarounds like WC19 final with Fed and still pull through.

Thinner margins.

That said, I still think his best level is better than anyone else on tour, just depends on the day.
 

Pheasant

Legend
I think that the return stats will do a decent job of quantifying the physical decline of a player. Of course, a player like Djoker can close some of that gap by improving some of his other skills like serving, drop shots, etc.

I'd be curious to see some of Djoker's stats by year for return stats and percentage of overall points won.
 

nolefam_2024

Bionic Poster
I think that the return stats will do a decent job of quantifying the physical decline of a player. Of course, a player like Djoker can close some of that gap by improving some of his other skills like serving, drop shots, etc.

I'd be curious to see some of Djoker's stats by year for return stats and percentage of overall points won.
Oh that is easy to find.


His return has declined considerably and at the top most game, even 2% decline can be a lot so that is only area which is of concern to me. But this return numbers are about as good as Sinner's today and Sinner is number 1.
 

Arak

Legend
The decline is incremental and not at all dramatic. If you compare him to his 2011 form, of course he has declined a lot. But compared to his 2019/2020 form, I would say he’s still the same. The secret of his longevity is the absence of injuries (despite a couple of faked ones).
 

nolefam_2024

Bionic Poster
The decline is incremental and not at all dramatic. If you compare him to his 2011 form, of course he has declined a lot. But compared to his 2019/2020 form, I would say he’s still the same. The secret of his longevity is the absence of injuries (despite a couple of faked ones).
I think his 2019/2020 form was incredible and 2023 was just the same. Now we are seeing some decline, but not a lot. His serve and net game kept improving over 2011. I would like to see Djokovic 2020 playing 2011 on fast court surfaces for sure.

Its more of a case that he can't play week in and week out so good or will get injuries so he is playing less and peaking for slams.
 

Juice4080

Semi-Pro
The stamina problem has been fixed with Gritsch back on his team. He's back to his usual iron man self. As far as his return game is concerned it has dropped off somewhat but since he retooled his staff it as picked up a little bit
 
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Lleytonstation

Talk Tennis Guru
There was a brief time where his serve was becoming Fed like and was amazing. But it was short lived.

Fed legitimately improved his backhand after changing his raquet. Djoker has not improved anything to that extent.
 

nolefam_2024

Bionic Poster
There was a brief time where his serve was becoming Fed like and was amazing. But it was short lived.

Fed legitimately improved his backhand after changing his raquet. Djoker has not improved anything to that extent.
Fed backhand was a huge liability, Djokovic does not have any.

Djokovic serve is improving a lot, it has reached serve impact near fed level, even if we don't see straight forward aces or unreturned. His spot serving has increased to a huge extent now and he is using it to get easy vollies at the net.


 

Lleytonstation

Talk Tennis Guru
Fed backhand was a huge liability, Djokovic does not have any.

Djokovic serve is improving a lot, it has reached serve impact near fed level, even if we don't see straight forward aces or unreturned. His spot serving has increased to a huge extent now and he is using it to get easy vollies at the net.
When I watch Djoker now, the sense (non statistical) that I get is he does not turn his defense into offense as well. His returns and shots from defensive stance are not as deep. But he seems to have made up for that with a slightly more aggressive approach at finishing the point.

At the highest level, micro degrading is huge. Saw it with fed, which is why some people do not think they are worse, but they are. Just such a small margin that you do not notice it.

Imagine being 0.03 slower to get to a ball, or to react, or being just slightly more tired to reach, or less flexible. All these things will not be noticeable to the eyes, but makes a huge difference in the outcome of matches if pushed by a top pro.

Age matters, but not everyday. Djoker could cruise to the final and look like he has never played better in his life, and then get destroyed by a bunch of different guys if he is not feeling it that day.

Is he better? No. Is he smarter? Yes. Has he declined? Yes. Is he still the best when he brings his A game? Yes.
 

nolefam_2024

Bionic Poster
When I watch Djoker now, the sense (non statistical) that I get is he does not turn his defense into offense as well. His returns and shots from defensive stance are not as deep. But he seems to have made up for that with a slightly more aggressive approach at finishing the point.

At the highest level, micro degrading is huge. Saw it with fed, which is why some people do not think they are worse, but they are. Just such a small margin that you do not notice it.

Imagine being 0.03 slower to get to a ball, or to react, or being just slightly more tired to reach, or less flexible. All these things will not be noticeable to the eyes, but makes a huge difference in the outcome of matches if pushed by a top pro.

Age matters, but not everyday. Djoker could cruise to the final and look like he has never played better in his life, and then get destroyed by a bunch of different guys if he is not feeling it that day.

Is he better? No. Is he smarter? Yes. Has he declined? Yes. Is he still the best when he brings his A game? Yes.
That's the main point. Djokovic has shown he can bring his A game on occasion more than anybody. Especially in the last decade.
21 RG semis / finals
24 Olympics final
23 Turin final

These are the matches where he was underdog, even in Turin, he lost 2 matches in 1 week (1 in RR and 1 in DC) but he was able to bring it during Finals.
 

Racquet_smash

Professional
Significantly so, even compared to last season.

He's only played well at the Olympics where he gave all he had left in the tank, and that was a bo3 tournament.
 

pirhaksar

Professional
When I watch Djoker now, the sense (non statistical) that I get is he does not turn his defense into offense as well. His returns and shots from defensive stance are not as deep. But he seems to have made up for that with a slightly more aggressive approach at finishing the point.

At the highest level, micro degrading is huge. Saw it with fed, which is why some people do not think they are worse, but they are. Just such a small margin that you do not notice it.

Imagine being 0.03 slower to get to a ball, or to react, or being just slightly more tired to reach, or less flexible. All these things will not be noticeable to the eyes, but makes a huge difference in the outcome of matches if pushed by a top pro.

Age matters, but not everyday. Djoker could cruise to the final and look like he has never played better in his life, and then get destroyed by a bunch of different guys if he is not feeling it that day.

Is he better? No. Is he smarter? Yes. Has he declined? Yes. Is he still the best when he brings his A game? Yes.
Great comment. I agree with most of what you say especially your final point. I do think he will be able to beat most guys not named Raz/Sinner most days but those 2 in Bo5 might be a tougher climb from here on..
 

RF-18

Talk Tennis Guru
Djokovic is winning points in a worse field now and efficacy in early rounds doesn't mean he's playing as well as he used to.

Is that your answer for everything? Seems so easy to come to that conclusion. The field ain't worse, there are lots of great players and depth. You are just too blind to see it or moreover refuse to acknowledge it.

Djokovic, Alcaraz, Sinner, Medvedev, Zverev as tier 1 is such easy opponents that the stats gets better thanks to that lol.
 
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Bingo! Novak when he was losing to Fed 2007-2010 would destroy modern Novak.
Lol, is this an irony or joke? Modern Novak under Ivanisevic with improved offensive arsenal would beat Federer from 2007/2010 7 times out of 10 and certainly would beat pre glutein free diet allergic Djokovic which lost to Melzer, Kohlschreiber and was thinking about retirement etc..

If anybody is a product of a weak era... It is Federer 2004 - 2008. His bad H2H, with pre Prime Murray, lost Olympics to Berdych in 2004, beatening average players like Phillipussysis, Baghdatis, Gonzales, Bjorkman, Monfils or Gasquet... Once Djokovic and Nadal reached their Prime, Roger got fully exposed. If nervous and unstable Federer would have to deal with Prime Djokovic, Nadal, Murray, Wawrinka, Del Potro before his French Open title in 2009 - Roger would get mental breakdown live on Eurosport.
 

Rudiiii

Semi-Pro
There was a brief time where his serve was becoming Fed like and was amazing. But it was short lived.

Fed legitimately improved his backhand after changing his raquet. Djoker has not improved anything to that extent.
His serve in 2015 was what gave him such a year and a little weaker field thanks to Nadal's slump. In 2021, IMO his best serving year ever, he literally won 3 slams and played final od fourth thanks to it :D. And his worst serve perfomance that year, by far? Againts Med in USO final.
 

scotus

G.O.A.T.
His serve in 2015 was what gave him such a year and a little weaker field thanks to Nadal's slump. In 2021, IMO his best serving year ever, he literally won 3 slams and played final od fourth thanks to it :D. And his worst serve perfomance that year, by far? Againts Med in USO final.
The USO final was decided on serve. Med on fire consistently firing 130+ mph serves, and Novak unable to land first serves to save his life.
 

SonnyT

Legend
Is that your answer for everything? Seems so easy to come to that conclusion. The field ain't worse, there are lots of great players and depth. You are just too blind to see it or moreover refuse to acknowledge it.

Djokovic, Alcaraz, Sinner, Medvedev, Zverev as tier 1 is such easy opponents that the stats gets better thanks to that lol.
I wouldn't put Zverev in that company, until he comes up with his 1st slam. In the meantime, he belongs with Dmitrov and Tsisitpas.
 

TheFifthSet

Legend
Is that your answer for everything? Seems so easy to come to that conclusion. The field ain't worse, there are lots of great players and depth. You are just too blind to see it or moreover refuse to acknowledge it.

Djokovic, Alcaraz, Sinner, Medvedev, Zverev as tier 1 is such easy opponents that the stats gets better thanks to that lol. Then you have bunch of other good and talented players around that are much better than #3 Ljubicic.

The field is definitely worse for not having at least one of Federer, Djokovic or Nadal in their prime, much less multiple.

Depth is frankly overrated in tennis. That’s always been the case but now it’s more true than ever (talking last 20 years)…it’s a more important factor when there’s significant variation in conditions from tournament to tournament…but surface/style/equipment convergence has made it easier for one style to predominate. That doesn’t necessarily lower the “level” of the field, it just lowers the parity index, and makes it more difficult for the existing depth to be a needle-mover.

But yeah, tennis is an absurdly top-heavy sport. The credibility of the field is determined mostly by the presence of three or four generational talents…….if you don’t have that, depth can only salvage what’s left…and said depth again matter more when here’s some variety in conditions. It’s no coincidence that the two most homogenized/stable periods in tennis history (50’s-70’s, 2000’s-2020’s) doubled as the most top-heavy and longevous for those top players. There was lots of depth from 07-12 (Delpo, Ferrer, Tsonga, Berdych, Soderling, Roddick, Verdasco, Cilic etc were all threats) but they had one combined slam in 24 attempts to show for it…tells?
 
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nolefam_2024

Bionic Poster
I wouldn't put Zverev in that company, until he comes up with his 1st slam. In the meantime, he belongs with Dmitrov and Tsisitpas.
Dimitrov and Tsitsipas are far behind Zverev. Zverev is better than Nalbandian now but worse than Roddick.
 

DjokoLand

Hall of Fame
Loads, I said it 2 years ago that his decline would be sudden and quick even too the point that I feel this is his last chance at a slam.

I know he is a health freak and modern diets and science makes a difference but the big 3 fooled everyone by lasting so long they think it’s the norm. Before The big 3 nobody won 5 slams after turning 28 and 31 was considered old. Djokovic is really old for top level tennis and as seen with Nadal the decline was rapid at this age.
Fed got away with it more as his serve was elite and his style let him try finish points quick. But in the end he was bagelled by a servebot at his best slam, Nadal’s last year has been losing to everyone. Djokovic will follow suit soon
 

pasta

Professional
so far in this match: low energy, slow, disinterested ... left hand seems weak affecting his backhand. not looking good at all
 

Bubcay

Legend
The serve is gone for some reason... Missing in action... Since it is a foundation of his success in the last 5 years or so, he won't be able to hold off the younger generations any more until he fixes this. US Open is a perfect example of this decline...
 
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