No doubt, form will always be what matters. Novak dissected the game of tennis and patented the formula of winning. He deserves all the spoils while the haters tears will give existence to a new sea.
Djokovic has won 48 out of his last 50 matches in grand slam play - 96% win rate
- Thread starter Hitman
- Start date
Hitman
Bionic Poster
Djokovic currently has a winning streak of 56 wins between his last 8 appearances (4 each) at AO-W. Winning the last four times at both slams when he played them.
abmk
Bionic Poster
Better than Nadal. But not convinced wrt to Federer.
Djokovic has simply been playing less matches than Federer at the respective ages.
2014 - 87 matches, 2020 - 46 matches (granted, COVID affected)
2015 - 74 matches, 2021 - 63 matches
2016 - 28 matches (injury affected), 2022 - 48 matches
2017 - 58 matches, 2023 - 27 matches so far
Given the weakness of the field, didn't think AO 18 would be federer's last slam, but here we are. federer was 36.5 then. lets see.
2018 - fed played 59 matches
2019 - 64 matches !
GabeT
G.O.A.T.
And he should be at 5 straight wins at each of them!
Hitman
Bionic Poster
uscwang
Hall of Fame
I'm not comparing fields of different years.
But trying to take Novak out of his prime at the peak of his career in 2016 is absurd.
abmk
Bionic Poster
Federer's prime was from YEC 03-AO 10. USO 11 to Cincy 12 prime-ish
Nadal from 2007-AO 2014. clay/RG you can say more. maybe argue on HC in 17 ( AO 17/USO 17, Miami 17, Beijing 17, Shanghai 17) grass, Wim 06/18. but skip 13 , maybe 12.
Djokovic from 2011-RG 16 or whole year if you want. prime-ish in 08 and Wim 18-AO 19
comparing fields of different years is necessary here.
you said "Calling a player who is winning consecutive GS titles out of prime is disrespectful. "
with pitiful fields like the ones we've been having from 2016 for most part that happens.
Federer was also well past his prime in 17 when he won consecutive GS titles when he played (AO 17, Wim 17)
Nadal laughably more so in AO 22/RG 22. its a joke to consider that as remotely prime level from him.
GabeT
G.O.A.T.
It’s like some posters here just don’t even watch tennis at all!
duaneeo
Legend
Spamming GPPD with Federer?
TheNachoMan
Legend
Fed plays more of the smaller tournaments. Not knocking him for that but he does.
Also Novak was restricted a lot from 2020-2023.
WildRevolver
Hall of Fame
Honestly, who was his toughest opponent in those 48?
abmk
Bionic Poster
173 matches in M1000 or above from fed in 14-17
131 from djokovic in 20-current.
Djokovic himself has played similar number of smaller tournaments as fed.
Yes, Djokovic was restricted in 22 in AO&US, but he also went and played bunch of smaller tournaments.
Also Halle (warmup for Wimbledon) and Basel (for fed) are not really smaller tournaments effectively.
GabeT
G.O.A.T.
at that age all that matters are slams. If a player decides to play elsewhere, good for him. But it means nothing in terms of tennis ability or career impact. And as I recall Novak played all slams he was allowed to while Fed stopped playing RG for like 3 years
Nate7-5
Hall of Fame
sNaTcHeD aWaY
Insert
Djokovic crying after loss in Olympics.gif
Djokovic angry/upset after loss to PCB and vanishing from Olympics after singles loss and not playing medal match for mixed doubles.gif
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
uscwang
Hall of Fame
It puzzles me how Federer's fans choose to snap his prime when he barely turned 30 while he was reaching GS finals and winning some well into his 30s. But I won't argue with you since I'm not his fan.
But please refrain yourself from calling shots for Novak. Just try to stick with your idol and refine your narrative around him.
abmk
Bionic Poster
Umn, nope. I apply consistent evaluations for the players. Similar for all 3 -fed, nadal, djokovic here. not restricting to around 30 for just federer, but djokovic as well.
I don't have to refine narratives. I am calling it as I see it.
you said "Calling a player who is winning consecutive GS titles out of prime is disrespectful. "
with pitiful fields like the ones we've been having from 2016 for most part that happens.
I didn't deny federer had the adv of weaker fields in 17-early 18, especially from mid 17.
the same applies for Djokovic, but for a much longer time. but you are denial.
maybe its better if you evaluate properly instead of trying to build up a narrative for Djokovic.
As a fan, you can be happy Djokovic is winning, but denying the absolute weakness of the field and that Djokovic is not playing at a particularly high level is just being disingenous.
canta_Brian
Hall of Fame
uscwang
Hall of Fame
I'm celebrating Novak's longevity in tennis while admiring that of Federer's and Nadal's.
All I hear from you is the Big 3 suck after turning 30/31, and they won because the whole field suck more. Are you in the vacuum cleaner biz or what?
abmk
Bionic Poster
Nope, big 3 have been impressive in their 30s given their ages, but not in their primes. I have decent standards for what constitutes prime level for an ATG.
and yes, 2 of the worst generations ever - Nishi/Rao/Dimi gen and Med/Z/Tpas gen - have helped Djokovic the most, followed by Nadal (not far behind). Federer to some extent as well. 2016-current is worst period in open era by far (2020-current even more so)
give federer of Wim 14 or Wim 15 a Berretini or Kyrgios and he runs through them in Wim finals. Instead he got a peak DJokovic in both finals. when you have actual elite competition, the cracks show for older ATGs.
DSH
Talk Tennis Guru
uscwang
Hall of Fame
I cannot understand Federer fans like you.
And I can understand Federer fans like you.
Why would you bash your own player? Because it is excusable for an out of prime Federer to never win RG or USO again, and never won any major for 4 to 5 years until turning 35. His 3 GS in 2017-18 was almost an inconvenience but can be downplayed. Bash to protect in the big picture.
Interestingly, it is bash to bash in Novak's case since he is so successful in his 30s. By denying his prime status in his 30s, his achievement can be discounted, or you think.
Applying a single, arbitrary standard to all players is not necessarily fair. Acknowledging the greatness, longevity and individuality of the Big 3 should not be that hard.
abmk
Bionic Poster
I'm speaking the reality. I said the same for fed in 17-early 18, when it happened. not just now. I'm not bashing federer. I'm just stating his actual level. Federer in his 30s was no less than Djokovic in his 30s, just that Djokovic benefitted from the worst competition in open era a LOT more.
big 3 have been impressive in their 30s given their ages, but not in their primes.
fed's USO 11-Cincy 12 ~ Djokovic's Queens 18 to AO 19. that is prime-ish level for both
but after that its clearly past prime for both, unequivocally.
But you go on exaggerating djokovic level post AO 19 - that's your problem. So you can't see proper evaluation by someone (in this case someone who has watched so many full length tennis matches starting from matches in the 70s.)
Just because you spread Djokovic narrative propaganda, doesn't mean others spread propaganda too.
Keep denying the 2 worst generations of all time reality and people will stop respecting your opinions.
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Texas Tennis Fan
Professional
Oops! We forgot. Nadal never loses unless he is injured. Funny that after the match, Nadal said he was fine until the 4th set and then said, His injury was minor and HAD NO AFFECT ON THE OUTCOME OF THE MATCH. A few months later, the myth arises that he was majorly injured.
Texas Tennis Fan
Professional
B
But you give zero evidence to the notion that someone is out of their prime due to your eye test? Please!!!!!!!!!
uscwang
Hall of Fame
I would rather people respect the players on the tour than my opinions.
If you consider it propaganda when I say I believe Novak is still in his prime given his GS results, you lost me.
abmk
Bionic Poster
I would rather respect reality that the 2 generations - Nishi/Rao/Dimi and Med/Z/Tpas are the 2 worst generations in open era.
I would be disrespecting players of earlier generations by pretending these 2 generations are remotely comparable to them.
physically and stroke wise, Djokovic has been well past his prime after AO 19. Queens 18-AO 19 was his last prime-ish stretch just like USO 11 to Cincy 12 for fed. its clearly obvious
if djokovic was playing just as well, but was facing good fields instead of worst fields in open era, he'd win probably 1-2 slams post AO 19, rather than 7 slams. same level of play, but wins far less. so now he's not in prime even with same level?
Push post AO 19 Djokovic 6 years back for instance in place of his younger self.
Murray of Wim 13 > DJokovic of Wim 19
Wawrinka of AO 14 > DJokovic of AO 20
lets say Djokovic of AO 21 SF/F just about edges out Wawa/Murray of AO 15
Wawrinka of RG 15 > Djokovic of RG 21
Federer of Wim 15 > Djokovic of Wim 21
Murray of Wim 16 > Djokovic of Wim 22
Federer of AO 17 ~ Djokovic of AO 23
you have atleast one player clearly better in 5/7 slams.
Djokovic wins 1 or 2 slams in this case.
Djokovic was in his prime in 12, but not in 21. level well above in 12, not even close. But he won 1 slam in 12 and 3 in 21. that's solely down to the crappy field in 21 compared to strong field in 21. 2012 was in fact Djokovic's 3rd best year level wise after 11 and 15.
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Unseeded Player
Hall of Fame
Maybe Fed evaded Novak cause he didn't wanted to lose more against him at those slams?
GabeT
G.O.A.T.
its incredible that posters don’t understand that several of these so-called mugs would be multi slam winners and even ATGs without the Big 3 around
GabeT
G.O.A.T.
It’s understandable that a poster that predicted Novak would never reach Fed’s slam totals would prefer to focus on the “eye test” and hypothetical matches
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uscwang
Hall of Fame
You are trying too hard but with weak logic.
First, even if the current generation is weak, it doesn't necessarily prove that Novak, who won most of the GS he played in, is weak. The current field is not his ceiling and might not even be testing his ceiling.
Second, you listed many hypothetical matchups that are not worth discussing. Because even if you are correct in all accounts, it doesn't stop Novak from running deep to SF or F in every GS. That is still prime stuff.
The Big 3 each had their peaks, Federer in consecutive years while Novak and Nadal in separated years. But their prime is much longer than their peak periods.
No one is saying that Novak is still at his physical peak or even physical prime, but he is better in mental and some technical areas that keep him in prime, although not peak. A telling sign of that is he can still reach SF and F in most GS, even with players teleported from other times.
abmk
Bionic Poster
nope, Djokovic is not better mentally now than in his prime. he's just facing useless generations. He was better at his prime mentally, no question. better return, fh, bh, movement at his prime. only serve is better than in 11-13 (though not better than 14-16), comes in to the net more. not even remotely enough to call it prime level for Djoko.
at the last statement incorrect. he'd be losing earlier on multiple occasions. There are more ones for upset, but I didn't even list. Also those were only the ones that djokovic won.
USO 19/USO 20/RG 22 - he didn't reach SF/F as is.
didn't play Wim 20/AO 22/USO 22
RG 19/RG 20 - he may not reach SF/F with better competition.
@ the bold part, which is why I pushed back 6 years ago. to illustrate djoko's true level. I didn't say Djokovic was weak post AO 19. post AO 19 djoko is merely good by historical standards, but not great. he'd win 1 or 2 slams, not 7 with other good runs losing out to better in-form players. My evaluation of level is correct there. those 5 out of 7 are clearly better.
and yes, 89-99 born generations are unequivocally 2 worst of open era. Be realistic and stop trying to deny that.
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helterskelter
G.O.A.T.
Not just the weakest (actual) era but the weakest (possible) era. And in fact the weakest era of all possible worlds.
I Am Finnish
Bionic Poster
What it tell us?Incredible scenes by The Earth's Mightiest Warrior that in his mid 30s he has put up devastating numbers like this.
Who knows what the next 50 will look like, but the last 50 have been insane. It gave him a winning streak of 27 matches, a current winning streak of 17 matches, and five grand slam titles.
Sleep well Earth's Citizens
Hitman
Bionic Poster
uscwang
Hall of Fame
Do you know how bad these two generations need to be to justify your implication that winning in this time actually sucks?
I can only imagine if you tell this to any of the guys, or even worse, their mothers.
abmk
Bionic Poster
That's not what I said implied. Stop strawmanning. I mean USO 18 and AO 19 were also weak competition wise. But Djoko's level was pretty good. He was prime-ish.
But post AO 19, his level is not good enough to win more than 2 slams in a decent era as I illustrated with an example. 7 is way too far.
Yes, I will tell it flat out to those guys that your generations suck compared to every other generation in the open era.
1 slam each from players born in 89-93 and 94-99. That's Zverible. guys from DjokoDal gen who actually faced Djokovic/Nadal and even a better fed won more - 3 Wawa, 3 Murray, 1 Delpo, 1 Cilic., total of 8. fed gen apart from fed also won more - Hewitt 2, Safin 2, Roddick 1, Ferrero 1, Gaudio 1. total of 7, just to give another example.
You didn't address the actual points I made.
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uscwang
Hall of Fame
You said Novak is not mentally stronger ...
How shall I address you? Department of Psychology, Harvard University?
abmk
Bionic Poster
"No one is saying that Novak is still at his physical peak or even physical prime, but he is better in mental and some technical areas that keep him in prime, although not peak. "
How shall I address you? department of Psychology, Djokovic University?
and yes, Djokovic post AO 19 is worse mentally than in his prime.
Tennfan123
Legend
Slight omission of his not playing the USO 22.
'But big 3' going strong in this thread.
Djokovic peaked in 2011-2012. His peak was relatively short lived compared to Federer (2004-2007).
Djokovic's prime was 2011-2016.
Again, short compared to Federer (2003-2009).
2018 is Post prime Djokovic.
'But big 3' going strong in this thread.
Djokovic peaked in 2011-2012. His peak was relatively short lived compared to Federer (2004-2007).
Djokovic's prime was 2011-2016.
Again, short compared to Federer (2003-2009).
2018 is Post prime Djokovic.
Winners or Errors
Legend
Well, if Tsitsipas or Sinner had the mental fortitude to close Djoker out, they'd both be slam winners. They're not. They probably will never be. Your point eludes me... Had either or both of them won, we'd be talking about something other than the Inflation Era.
Hitman
Bionic Poster
I guess if Haas had some mental fortitude, then Federer would never have won the French and had a career slam.
What you are failing to address is the ability of the other GOAT tier player being able to turn it around, you are assuming that just because said player is ahead, all they need to do is keep that mental fortitude in check, but that is not how tennis works, the other's will, experience and change of tactics also impact how things go...as was in the case for Federer in RG 2009, as was the case for Djokovic at RG 2021 and W 2022. Had Djokovic not picked up his game, he was losing.
As for the inflation era thing, its mainly spoken by a certain fanbase. I don't speak of it, the same way I didn't speak of the weak era during Federer's peak years. If Wimbledon and all those other big events are not putting asterisks next to title wins, I ain't either. You and others are welcome to devalue what you see fit in your eyes.
Novak played RG because he had a chance of winning, even in '22, when he had a chance of carrying it to a 5th set. Federer had no chance of winning RG.
It is funny when Fedfans talked about the impotence of Tsisipas, Sinner and other players at Wimb. If they were impotent, what did that say about Federer, who had more chances to take out Djokovic?
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Third Serve
Talk Tennis Guru
If you take away the era’s three best players, you’re left with a sea of mediocrity where only the least ineffective players win as opposed to the truly great. Look what happened to the competition in the late 90’s when Sampras began to lose his stranglehold over the tour.
A player with as many holes in his game as Tsitsipas being a multi-Slam winner would be a frightening sight indeed.
abmk
Bionic Poster
prime Fed in RG 09 is nowhere near the same as prime 34 yo old Djokovic at RG 21 or well past prime 35 yo old DJokovic in Wim 22.
Federer turned it around in RG 2009 vs Haas with an I/O Fh winner to save BP. he got to BP in next game with good play even if Haas did miss on the BP. Federer was turning around the match even if Haas's form had not dipped in the 4th set. Haas was playing fine in the 5th set and federer took it 6-2. Federer was at his prime and very well capable of taking 3 sets in a row even vs a good playing Haas. Unlike in RG 21/Wim 22, where a good opponent should have been able to take 1 set out of 3 vs a good, but not great playing well past prime Djokovic.
weak era in 2004-07 is a myth propagadated by federer dislikers and haters.
2016-current being weak is a reality. inflation era was coined back in like 2018 IIRC when nearly all 3 federer, nadal, djokovic had benefitted about equally. it was federer/nadal who were benefitting more by about mid-2018.
Gary Duane
Talk Tennis Guru
I've said for years the only three things that give other players a chance against this monster are: a crucifix, a wooden stake and garlic.Incredible scenes by The Earth's Mightiest Warrior that in his mid 30s he has put up devastating numbers like this.
Who knows what the next 50 will look like, but the last 50 have been insane. It gave him a winning streak of 27 matches, a current winning streak of 17 matches, and five grand slam titles.
Sleep well Earth's Citizens
For those of us who are not haters but also not a fan of this man, it's very frustrating to watch what he does month after month. I am totally rooting for Carlos or some other young player to finally break through. But I won't be surprised in the least if Djokovic wins this slam.
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Silverbullet96
Hall of Fame
Yet Djokovic fans say how Alcaraz is the big favorite at RG.
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