Djokovic higher peak and floor, Nadal better average?

[dh003i]

There is no way I would say Djokovic's base or floor level of play is superior to Nadal's. Ridiculous.

Nadal has been more of a factor in Majors and has been more consistently ranked #1. Not only that, but his game in and of itself has more margin than Djokovic's, so you'd expect his base to be higher.

 

[jg153040]

I would like to add additional point. That goes only for post 2011 Nole. Pre 11 Nole, Rafa owns him in every regard.

Why do we compare only post 11 Nole with Rafa? How about 2005-2014 Nole vs 2005-2014 Rafa?

 

[DRII]

The strongest form of Nadal at the greatest peak of his grass powers beating a young Djokovic only about 1 year into being an elite player, 2 years away from his prime, 2.5 years away from his peak, and 3 years away from his grass peak in two tight sets distills the whole rivalry dynamic for you?

Lol ok

uhm, Nole is only one year younger than Nadal

you act as if in 2008 Nole was a pre-teen?!?

and yes, in 2008 both Nadal and Nole were at their most naturally aggressive forms. both have tamed their game since then.

I suggest you actually watch the match, although given some of your previous posts, i doubt it would change some of your dubious judgements.

and BTW, i agree and have stated previously that hypothetical peak Nole and Federer > hypothetical peak Nadal...

 

[[Z]engin]

Aside from clay,

I can't imagine Nadal having the upperhand against Djokovic, the way he played in 2011.

It was ridiculous, he was beating Nadal on the baseline. He was retrieving and redirecting balls Nadal would dream off.

But like Rafa said, it was impossible to maintain that level. He's like let's say 5% off from that level.

Nadal is far more consistent than Djokovic. The h2h speaks volumes. Although Djokovic has won more matches against Nadal since 2011.

 

[BringBackSV]

Most of your "examples" are 2011, where he was clearly the better player. Rafa was never good at the WTF either.

 

[abmk]

peak level, nadal > djokovic on clay and grass
on any HC, djokovic > nadal

 

[abmk]

the one single match that best distills the Nadal vs Nole rivalry dynamics was their 2008 Queens Club final (the best 'new' grass court match i've ever scene overall).

both were at their most naturally aggressive forms in 2008 and Nadal won in two tough sets...

LOL, wimbledon 04, 07,08, 09 and 12 finals for starters were clearly superior matches than queens 08 final ....

 

[NatF]

peak level, nadal > djokovic on clay and grass
on any HC, djokovic > nadal

I'd say Nadal's level on HC is significantly closer to Djokovic's on HC than the other way around on clay at least and perhaps grass too. So overall Nadal is the better player peak for peak.

 

[DRII]

LOL, wimbledon 04, 07,08, 09 and 12 finals for starters were clearly superior matches than queens 08 final ....

WHY

because they were best of 5?

i suggest you actually rewatch the 08 Queens final!

it was spectacular new grass court tennis!

fyi, i'm talking about the actual tennis, not the ambiance or drama...

 

[abmk]

WHY

because they were best of 5?

i suggest you actually rewatch the 08 Queens final!

it was spectacular new grass court tennis!

fyi, i'm talking about the actual tennis, not the ambiance or drama...

no, because they were better quality matches, not because they were best of 5. My post had nothing to do with the drama or ambiance.

I'll throw in the federer-ancic QF in wim 06 as well on top of my head.

I just watched the highlights of the 2008 Queens match and I'm like zzzzzzzz ...spectacular choking by Nole at the end , must say ...botched volley and brain dead drop shot.

 

[abmk]

I'd say Nadal's level on HC is significantly closer to Djokovic's on HC than the other way around on clay at least and perhaps grass too. So overall Nadal is the better player peak for peak.

clay obviously, the difference is the biggest, clearly.

I'd say the difference in their peak level on HC is more than that on grass though.

 

[Mustard]

no, because they were better quality matches, not because they were best of 5. My post had nothing to do with the drama or ambiance.

I'll throw in the federer-ancic QF in wim 06 as well on top of my head.

I just watched the highlights of the 2008 Queens match and I'm like zzzzzzzz ...spectacular choking by Nole at the end , must say ...botched volley and brain dead drop shot.

Are you seriously calling the 2008 Queen's Club final boring?

 

[abmk]

Are you seriously calling the 2008 Queen's Club final boring?

compared to

a) the other matches I mentioned , yes , relatively boring ..

b) reality and the level of hype DRII is giving it I'd say hell yeah

 

[Mustard]

compared to

a) the other matches I mentioned , yes , relatively boring ..

b) reality and the level of hype DRII is giving it I'd say hell yeah

I consider the tennis of the 2008 Queen's Club final to be better than the tennis from the 2009 and 2012 Wimbledon finals.

 

[abmk]

I consider the tennis of the 2008 Queen's Club final to be better than the tennis from the 2009 and 2012 Wimbledon finals.

That's your opinion , I don't think its that close at all

2009 and 2012 wimbledon finals >> Queens 2008 final IMO ...

 

[President]

clay obviously, the difference is the biggest, clearly.

I'd say the difference in their peak level on HC is more than that on grass though.

Really? I think Nadal at USO 2013/2010 and AO 2009/2012 level can put up a massive fight against even the very best of Djokovic on hard court, and against the field in general his peak might even be better on the hard courts than Djokovic (Djokovic has a bit of a matchup advantage head to head against Nadal, IMO).

 

[roaringsound]

Nadal's peak level is clearly higher on clay. That prime Djokovic has been unable to beat Nadal now years past his clay prime at Roland Garros says it all. Peak vs peak clay is a blowout in Nadal's favor.

Grass I would also clearly favor prime Nadal.

Even hard courts is close. U.S Open hard courts I might favor Nadal slightly. He is 2-1 vs Djokovic there. 2011 Djokovic was the best ever Djokovic there vs the 3rd or 4th best Nadal there (after 2010, 2013, maybe even 2008), while 2010 and 2013 is the best and second best Nadal vs the 2nd and 3rd best Djokovic there. Australian hard courts would probably favor Djokovic, but the 2012 Australian Open final was a pretty good example of both playing their best or close to it and it couldn't have been closer, and Nadal choked at the very end to lose also.

 

[NatF]

Nadal's peak level is clearly higher on clay. That prime Djokovic has been unable to beat Nadal now years past his clay prime at Roland Garros says it all. Peak vs peak clay is a blowout in Nadal's favor.

Grass I would also clearly favor prime Nadal.

Even hard courts is close. U.S Open hard courts I might favor Nadal slightly. He is 2-1 vs Djokovic there. 2011 Djokovic was the best ever Djokovic there vs the 3rd or 4th best Nadal there (after 2010, 2013, maybe even 2008), while 2010 and 2013 is the best and second best Nadal vs the 2nd and 3rd best Djokovic there. Australian hard courts would probably favor Djokovic, but the 2012 Australian Open final was a pretty good example of both playing their best or close to it and it couldn't have been closer, and Nadal choked at the very end to lose also.

07, 08 and 09 were the equal of 2010 and 2013 Djokovic at the USO. And 2011 Nadal at the USO > Nadal at the 2008 USO.

 

[roaringsound]

07, 08 and 09 were the equal of 2010 and 2013 Djokovic at the USO. And 2011 Nadal at the USO > Nadal at the 2008 USO.

I don't agree. 2007 he was young and immature, and very weak mentally. 2008 and 2009 he was playing much better at different parts of the year than he was at the U.S Open, epecialy 2008. 2010 was a bad year but he really peaked for the U.S Open after surviving his early round.

I think Nadal's level of play in 2008 was higher than 2011. JMO. His serve sucked in 2011, an old lady could have broken it.

 

[NatF]

I don't agree. 2007 he was young and immature, and very weak mentally. 2008 and 2009 he was playing much better at different parts of the year than he was at the U.S Open, epecialy 2008. 2010 was a bad year but he really peaked for the U.S Open after surviving his early round.

I think Nadal's level of play in 2008 was higher than 2011. JMO. His serve sucked in 2011, an old lady could have broken it.

Nadal was exhausted by the USO in 2008 after his heroic summer.

And he wasn't mentally weak in 2013? At least he got to a tiebreak in the first set in 2007 and didn't give up in the third like he did in the 2013 final set. In 2013 he had trouble with old Youzhny and barely got past Wawrinka. In 2008 Djokovic looked very strong against Roddick and gave Federer playing top tennis a hard match. In 2009 he pushed a very good Federer in all 3 sets.

You put 2010 Federer in 07, 08 and 09 and they beat him too.

 

[The-Champ]

The strongest form of Nadal at the greatest peak of his grass powers beating a young Djokovic only about 1 year into being an elite player, 2 years away from his prime, 2.5 years away from his peak, and 3 years away from his grass peak in two tight sets distills the whole rivalry dynamic for you?

Lol ok

But it seems to me that your analysis is always "when djokovic loses to Nadal, he was average".


Nadal's clay peak was 2005 european clay season - 2008 RG. 2010-2014, he was already heavily declined.

On grass, his peak was 2007-2008. Even though Nadal lost to Federer in 2006, that version of his would beat his 2010-2011 versions IMO.

HCs - I give Nadal 2010 USO-2013 USO.

I gave Nadal 4 peak years on clay. 2 years on grass, in reality 3, I think 2006 Nadal on grass was peak because of his incredible movement on it. HC, 3 years.

What are Djokovic peak years in your opinion?

 

[DRII]

That's your opinion , I don't think its that close at all

2009 and 2012 wimbledon finals >> Queens 2008 final IMO ...

no way.

the 09 final was not that high of quality tennis wise. Federer actually played relatively poorly.

you're confusing drama with substance...

 

[abmk]

Really? I think Nadal at USO 2013/2010 and AO 2009/2012 level can put up a massive fight against even the very best of Djokovic on hard court, and against the field in general his peak might even be better on the hard courts than Djokovic (Djokovic has a bit of a matchup advantage head to head against Nadal, IMO).

no way is his peak higher than djokovic's on HC , any kind of HC.

and I do think Nole of wimbledon 11 semis and finals and some other matches on grass can put up a massive fight vs nadal of wimbledon 07 and 08 finals ( nadal's best ) ....there are some matches where he seems a bit uncomfortable on grass, but there are others where he plays really well and is untroubled - for example the match yesterday vs tsonga.

 

[abmk]

no way.

the 09 final was not that high of quality tennis wise. Federer actually played relatively poorly.

you're confusing drama with substance...

actually the quality of the 09 final is very very under-rated. Federer played just as well in it as he did in the 08 final -- below his best, but still well.

It just seemed that federer didn't play that well because many , if not all, were used to seeing Federer handle Roddick comfortably, but Roddick was just good in that final hence causing federer trouble.

 

[bullfan]

But it seems to me that your analysis is always "when djokovic loses to Nadal, he was average".


Nadal's clay peak was 2005 european clay season - 2008 RG. 2010-2014, he was already heavily declined.

On grass, his peak was 2007-2008. Even though Nadal lost to Federer in 2006, that version of his would beat his 2010-2011 versions IMO.

HCs - I give Nadal 2010 USO-2013 USO.

I gave Nadal 4 peak years on clay. 2 years on grass, in reality 3, I think 2006 Nadal on grass was peak because of his incredible movement on it. HC, 3 years.

What are Djokovic peak years in your opinion?

Novak peaks years.. 2011-AO2012. About 14-15 months....

 

[DRII]

actually the quality of the 09 final is very very under-rated. Federer played just as well in it as he did in the 08 final -- below his best, but still well.

It just seemed that federer didn't play that well because many , if not all, were used to seeing Federer handle Roddick comfortably, but Roddick was just good in that final hence causing federer trouble.

wrong!

the 04 final (or was it 05); yes, Roddick actually played very well in that final, but Federer was just too good. not so with the 09, Federer did not play that well he was just more clutch on the important points with Roddick choking on some.

 

[SpicyCurry1990]

But it seems to me that your analysis is always "when djokovic loses to Nadal, he was average".


Nadal's clay peak was 2005 european clay season - 2008 RG. 2010-2014, he was already heavily declined.

On grass, his peak was 2007-2008. Even though Nadal lost to Federer in 2006, that version of his would beat his 2010-2011 versions IMO.

HCs - I give Nadal 2010 USO-2013 USO.

I gave Nadal 4 peak years on clay. 2 years on grass, in reality 3, I think 2006 Nadal on grass was peak because of his incredible movement on it. HC, 3 years.

What are Djokovic peak years in your opinion?

Peak to me refers to the absolute pinnacle of play so saying someone was at his peak for 3+ straight years is not usually viable since there will be valleys in that time. Nadal on clay from 05-08 is the exception of course, probably the most dominant Tennis from anyone ever.

I listed out my peak Djokovic times earlier:

1)DC 2010 Final - USO 2011 (ended when his cincy injury to Murray was exacerbated in the DC match with Del Po leading to a fatigued and injured post-USO 2011)

2)AO 2012 (The finally hurrah after he was recovered physically from the post-USO 2011 indoor season. After this tournament, Djoker had a very visible decline throughout most of 2012)

3)Beijing 2012-IW 2013 (Prompted by the loss of his #1 ranking and losing the USO final in his poorest USO showing since before 07, Djoker refound his peak for a few months to close 2012 and begin 2013. Ended following the loss to Del Po at IW 2013 followed up by a bunch of random loses with poor form play to Dimitrov, Haas, Berdych etc..)

4) FO 2013 (Despite being sub-peak for most of the 2013 Clay Season, Djoker definitely brought a peak level performance for the FO. The emotion of that fight with Nadal and the ultimate loss pretty much sent Djokovic to average levels again for the next few months)

5) Beijing 2013-Monte Carlo 2013 (Similar to the end of 2012, prompted by the loss of his #1 ranking and not a very great USO performance, Djoker refound his peak for a few months. Ended with the wrist injury at MC. Unfortunate he could not maintain this peak for RG 2014. He has only been in his peak for 2 RGs - 2011 losing to Fed and the 2013 epic).

 

[Deleted member 307496]

So does Federer have a higher peak level than Djokovic since he's leading the H2H with him this year, 4 years past his prime (and at least 7 or 8 years since his peak)?

 

[BringBackSV]

We all know that Fed is better than Novak but that doesn't mean he's better against Nadal.

 

[Deleted member 307496]

We all know that Fed is better than Novak but that doesn't mean he's better against Nadal.

Just like we all know Nadal is better than Djokovic. Djokovic just does better against Nadal than Federer.

 

[Backspin1183]

Montreal least year was a great match. They were both playing at a very high level. Although I think Rafa kind of surprised Novak with a more aggressive return of serve. Rafa took the ball so early in that match, Novak was like, wait is this the same Rafa? The 3rd set TB was the only let down in that match.