RS
Bionic Poster
I said peak as well not greater player
Djokovic is a better player than Nadal at the US Open
- Thread starter Antofer
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Antofer
New User
It actually shows that the difference is just 1 title.
If it was a 3 titles difference, I wouldn't have made this thread.
nadalvamos
Rookie
nadalvamos
Rookie
also 2-1 h2h for Nadal, so more titles with a better head-to-head. what are we arguing about here?
Antofer
New User
The difference between 6-2 and 4-3 is huge.
RS
Bionic Poster
My question was separate from greater but I understand you.
RS
Bionic Poster
Djokovic would lose to 2006-2008 Federer though at Wim.
RS
Bionic Poster
It's just the matchup. Djokovic Wim 15 final to edge Nadal Wim 08 final in 5 also.
Of course not. But it's no wonder that someone comes up with that when we see that there are even worse deception attempts, for example when people tried to declare a player superior who had both less titles AND lost finals, because then it was about "final winning percentage" all of a sudden.
One example was when someone tried to declare Sampras the better Wimbledon player for his 7-0 in Wimbledon finals compared Federer's 8-4.
Antofer
New User
Djokovic has 3 titles to Nadal's 4, not 1 to 5
If any player is not at their best in a grand Slam final, than its the player problem. You won 6 matches , no excuses are allowed
Djokovic has not brought his A- game to US opens. I always felt that he spend too much energy during the year to really focus in us open.
Again Nadal has been very energetic in the US open finals. He has made most of his opportunities. I still think that Nadal because he could not win AO much , focussed better when in US open finals. Djokovic kept collecting Hard court AO, and kept his focus to win Wimbledon and FO, and in process got slightly less hungry while in US open
Djokovic has not brought his A- game to US opens. I always felt that he spend too much energy during the year to really focus in us open.
Again Nadal has been very energetic in the US open finals. He has made most of his opportunities. I still think that Nadal because he could not win AO much , focussed better when in US open finals. Djokovic kept collecting Hard court AO, and kept his focus to win Wimbledon and FO, and in process got slightly less hungry while in US open
Sport
G.O.A.T.
Djokovic went 0-4 vs. Fedal (3 losses to Federer and 1 loss to Nadal) after the USO.
Djokovic losing to Federer during the late 2010 indoor season is quite unsurprising, given the high level of Federer on indoor. Federer is, along with Sampras, the most dominant player ever on indoor hard. Even 38 years old Federer beat Djokovic on indoor hard in 2019. Djokovic losing against Nadal at the ATP finals is a bit of an anomaly, but only one match, so nothing weird considering it was Nadal at his absolute best. Peak Nadal has also lsot matches on clay to Djokovic.
2011-2012 peak Nadal lost 3 consecutive Slam matches to Djokovic (and many more in Masters 1000). 2008-2009 peak Federer lost 3 consecutive Slam matches to Nadal. 2012-2014 peak Djokovic lost 4 consecutive Slam matches to Nadal. Losing is not a synonym with being non-peak. No one is unbeatable.
Djokovic commenced his peak at the Slam level at the USO 2010. Only because he lost the final to Nadal, it doesn't follow he was non-peak.
D
Deleted member 788697
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D
Deleted member 788697
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Djokovic only won their 2011 US Open Final because Nadal was hitting mostly cross-court in 2011, whereas Nadal was going down-the-line a lot more in 2010 and 2013 in particular.
The more defensive Nadal is, the more he goes cross-court and that plays into Djokovic's hands.
Peak Nadal goes down-the-line and Djokovic has no answer....
The more defensive Nadal is, the more he goes cross-court and that plays into Djokovic's hands.
Peak Nadal goes down-the-line and Djokovic has no answer....
The_Order
G.O.A.T.
Well, no finals give you extra slams. Ask Fed , will he take an extra Wimbledon over all those finals he lost?
Without a doubt
DSH
Bionic Poster
The_Order
G.O.A.T.
Oh yeah, that was also the one that had that bloke that straight setted Novak in last year's final...
Gotta love it when Novak fans were crying about 2019 draw then their boi gets dumped in straight setted by him 2 years later...
Almost as funny as Fed fans crying about Kandy in 2017 final only for him to come back from 2 sets down v Fed at Wimbledon about 9 months later
MeatTornado
Talk Tennis Guru
But NBA fans are the worst so let's try not to emulate them lmaoWinning percentage in USO finals:
Nadal: 75%
Djokovic: 33%
Nadal is clutch In USO finals, Djokovic is as unclutch In the USO finals as it can get. In NBA circles, LeBron James is mocked because of his low winning percentage in Slam finals. LeBron has won 4 out of 10 NBA finals (40%), while Michael Jordan has won 6 out of 6 NBA finals (100%). In other words, NBA fans appreciate more the total titles and winning percentage as a sign of clutchness than losing extra finals.
The Blond Blur
G.O.A.T.
Only a ******** would think that a guy with fewer titles and a losing H2H record vs the guy you’re comparing him to is the better USO player.
Also, the reason MJ > LeBron arguments hold water is that 6>>>4 and 6 FMVPs is also the record. 4>3 is a smaller gap and neither hold the record. Of course MJ had far stronger teams for the most part, and played a grand total of one decent wing player in his Finals wins, unlike LeBron who was matched up against an ATG wing in every one of his finals runs... actually, let’s not get into it lol.
AgassiSuperSlam11
Hall of Fame
ND Plexicusion, Plexiplave, Laykfold, Greenset > Decoturf. The sliding, movement, and speed are different on Decoturf. In fact, Fed has a winning H2H (15-9 estimate) on Decoturf against ND. In addition, Nadal has 8 "official" wins (including 2 doubles matches) against ND. Agassi was also better on Rebound Ace than Decoturf.
DMTNA
Rookie
How?
40-15 saga was unlucky?
MeatTornado
Talk Tennis Guru
I'll say this for basketball fans. At least the Jordan argument means they acknowledge the sport existed in the 20th century unlike us tennis fans stuck in 2003-present.
They may not acknowledge anything before 1990 but that's still an extra decade on us lol
catskillthunder
Professional
Amazing how a fan of a certain player HAS to find something to suffice their insecurities.
abmk
Bionic Poster
1. Shanghai was outdoors
2. Djoko also lost to Nadal at the YEC
3. nadal's level on clay is higher than fed's indoor in general. yet Djoko straight-setted him on clay in Madrid 11 and Rome 11.
4. Dubai is also one of fed's pet tournaments. djoko straight-setted him in Dubai 11.
5. 11 Wim/USO was prime, but not peak Nadal
6. Wim 08/AO 09 was prime, but not peak fed
Djokovic won 1 small title from USO 10 till year end
those instaces you refer - matches were competitive
Djoko won 1 set combined in 4 matches vs fedal after the USO
from 0-4 to 10-1 is a BIG change
Federer played 2 ****ty sets in USO 2010 semi (2nd and 4th). can be proven easily through stats. that's why Djoko was able to win that match. He was no better than USO 07-09. In USO 10 he just returned from the funk he was in previous part of 10 to a good level (good level that he had in major chunks in 07,08 and even 09). that's it. It wasn't anywhere near 11 level. If USO 2010 is peak djoko, then so is 07-09 USO djoko.
you have offered zero proof that USO 2010 djoko was peak Djoko.
OTOH djoko himself has mentioned DC 2010 as a turning point. That plus training in offseason helped him.
the results/stats (&eye test) show post USO 2010 to end of 2010 was not peak Djokovic.
2011 start onwards the results and stats make it abundantly clear was peak Djokovic.
post USO 2010 till season end: 17-5 (77.2%) win loss record, 59.5% games won
2011 entire season: 70-6 (92.1%) win loss recors, 62.9% games won
djoko had 5 loss in 22 matches in the first period compared to 6 losses in frigging 76 matches in 2011!
if that doesn't open your eyes, what will?
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_phantom
Hall of Fame
Could you mention percentages too in those stats?
There was a long time poster (sorry forgot the name) who repeatedly said that making a final was an accomplishment in and of itself and was critical of people who focused on finals records. Otherwise, the poster said you are better off in these debates losing earlier in the tournament. I think that perspective is helpful (to a point) so sharing it for your consideration.
onefineday
Hall of Fame
4-3.
2-1.
Enjoy the tears. Mind the salt, though.
2-1.
Enjoy the tears. Mind the salt, though.
platypus50
Semi-Pro
Despite the USO being the most consistent slam for Djokovic throughout his career so far (11 consecutive semis (2007-2016, 2018) - he did not play in 2017).
It's a real shame that he has underperformed there.
It's a real shame that he has underperformed there.
I Am Finnish
Bionic Poster
I agree 3 > 4
Lol
Third Serve
Talk Tennis Guru
On aggregate, Djokovic is probably better (you kinda have to be to reach so many more finals), but Nadal's 2010 form was, I think, better than any of Djokovic's versions at the US Open
Sampras-Bruguera 1993
Legend
If he would have won last year I would agree. He lost though
ghostofMecir
Legend
Somewhat agree, but Nadalito’s best there was better. Djoko was lucky to win in 2011 being match points down and then in 2015, Federer basically choked away the match on break points.
MissileBackHand99
Professional
Nadal also has missed a few US Opens due to injury and the last 2 due to COVID. You can't always look at raw stats and draw a conclusion. Nadal is also 4-1 in US Open Finals, where as Djoko is 3-16
MugOpponent
Hall of Fame
Djoke's wimbledon numbers are the greatest anomaly of any Big 3 number. He's been damn lucky to be in an era where there are no great grass players. He probably should have 3 at most.
