Djokovic is closer to Federer than Nadal is

Benjamin Rio

Professional
I wouldn't want to be Nadal right now.

Yeah, fans still consider him the best player alive.

But he has been run out of the building by Djok and Fed for the last 2 years and hasn't dominated them since 2014.
Next FO he's going to be a big turning point. If Novak beats Nadal and wins a second FO that will definetly settle their positions. Still Nadal is the favorite at the FO.
 

The Fedfather

Hall of Fame
I wouldn't want to be Nadal right now.

Yeah, fans still consider him the best player alive.

But he has been run out of the building by Djok and Fed for the last 2 years and hasn't dominated them since 2014.
He's won as many Slams as Federer and Djokovic in the last 2 years, and was ranked #1 just like them. Tennis isn't about dominating certain players.
 

Rosstour

Hall of Fame
Next FO he's going to be a big turning point. If Novak beats Nadal and wins a second FO that will definetly settle their positions. Still Nadal is the favorite at the FO.
No, they both have 3 UO titles.
Yes, you are right.

I think my point still stands though...

Outside of the French, Djok has 4 Wimbledons, 6 AO, 3 USOs in 8 Finals, 5 YECs.

Outside of the French, Rafa has 1 AO, 2 Wimbledons, 3 USOs in 4 Finals, 0 YECs.

Rafa hasn't won Wimbledon in 8+ years, hasn't won AO in 10 years.
 

Rosstour

Hall of Fame
He's won as many Slams as Federer and Djokovic in the last 2 years, and was ranked #1 just like them. Tennis isn't about dominating certain players.
Riiiiight...tell Rafa fans that when they chant "H2H" to Fed Fans.

I agree with you, but those aren't the rules.
 

True Fanerer

G.O.A.T.
Yes, you are right.

I think my point still stands though...

Outside of the French, Djok has 4 Wimbledons, 6 AO, 3 USOs in 8 Finals, 5 YECs.

Outside of the French, Rafa has 1 AO, 2 Wimbledons, 3 USOs in 4 Finals, 0 YECs.

Rafa hasn't won Wimbledon in 8+ years, hasn't won AO in 10 years.
You're entitled to your opinion bro. We just have to disagree here (y)
 
No. That's just a Djokovic fan's frame of mind. Don't think for one second that people won't remember peak Djokovic losing to Federer in his thirties and it taking him until then to get on the positive side of the h2h. People won't forget that Djokovic has choked away numerous slams to guys Federer would never lose to in a slam final. Djokovic may have some better wins on paper, but he has worse losses as well. 17-18 ain't gonna do it bub.
I don't think losing to Wrawinka and Murray 4 times is anything to be ashamed of. They are also some of the greatest players to ever live IMO who were just unfortunate to have come along in this era. Murray literally has the same SF percentage as Sampras he just had the bad luck the other big 3 were usually in the semi finals as well and that's a tough ask to be 2 of the bst 3 players ever to win majors. Just doing it a few times or getting to 12 finals he's undervalued all time.
 

True Fanerer

G.O.A.T.
I don't think losing to Wrawinka and Murray 4 times is anything to be ashamed of. They are also some of the greatest players to ever live IMO who were just unfortunate to have come along in this era. Murray literally has the same SF percentage as Sampras he just had the bad luck the other big 3 were usually in the finals.
Don't even try to compare Murray and Sampras. I say this as a fan of Murray. I always liked him and he was my 2nd fav player for years. I also hated Pete as an Agassi fan, but Pete is in an entirely different league than Murray. It's not close in any shape, form, or fashion.
 
Don't even try to compare Murray and Sampras. I say this as a fan of Murray. I always liked him and he was my 2nd fav player for years. I also hated Pete as an Agassi fan, but Pete is in an entirely different league than Murray. It's not close in any shape, form, or fashion.
All I'm saying is he's unfortunate to have played in this era and that you have to judge him on a different scale IMO ( just like you do all the guys in this era IMO as they canablized each other). Facts are facts though, he played in the SF's 44% of the time and Sampras played 45% of the time and that includes on a bum hip the last few. It makes a difference when the 3 best players ever were almost always waiting for him in the SF's that he didn't win that often. 12 finals made despite it is something considering.
 
Djokovic

15 Slams
5 YECs
5 YE #1
236+ weeks at number one

Nadal

17 Slams
0 YECs
4 YE #1
196 weeks at number one

Discuss.
I would *just* put Nadal ahead at the moment, but if Novak Djokovic gets to one slam behind him, then his overall resume would put him above the Bull, IMHO.

Federer and Laver would remain above him though, just as they are currently above Nadal.
 

True Fanerer

G.O.A.T.
All I'm saying is he's unfortunate to have played in this era and that you have to judge him on a different scale IMO ( just like you do all the guys in this era IMO as they canablized each other). Facts are facts though, he played in the SF's 44% of the time and Sampras played 45% of the time and that includes on a bum hip the last few. It makes a difference when the 3 best players ever were almost always waiting for him in the SF's that he didn't win that often. 12 finals made despite it is something considering.
Losses to Murray/Wawrinka in slam finals:

Djokovic - 4
Nadal - 1
Federer - 0
 

Benjamin Rio

Professional
YEC are amazing. Borg Mcenroe Lendl Beck Edberg Sampras Djokovic Federer have won this tournament. This tournament is a must win for top players.
 

timnz

Legend
All I'm saying is it seems like some of you guys aren't letting this thing play out. If Rafa wins the French, then what?
What play out?

Slams are the most important criteria - but not the only 1. I rate the WTF highly (not as high as the Slams but still highly). Djokovic has 5 of those, Nadal has none. Djokovic has 1 more year as YE#1, he also has a significant number more weeks as number 1. Stated again, Slams are not the only criteria. In my view Djokovic is already slightly ahead of Nadal.
 

True Fanerer

G.O.A.T.
What play out?

Slams are the most important criteria - but not the only 1. I rate the WTF highly (not as high as the Slams but still highly). Djokovic has 5 of those, Nadal has none. Djokovic has 1 more year as YE#1, he also has a significant number more weeks as number 1. Stated again, Slams are not the only criteria. In my view Djokovic is already slightly ahead of Nadal.
Neither one of them have hung up their racket and there is still a FO to play. Djokovic is not the favorite there.
 
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Benjamin Rio

Professional
Neither one of them has hung up their racket and there is still a FO to play. Djokovic is not the favorite there.
Not favorite but he will have his chances if he faces Nadal in the final.

2012 He lost in 4 sets but got a set due to the rain.
2013 5 sets and really close of winning.
2014 Lost in 4 sets but was close of having a 2 sets to 0 lead.
2015 He won in 3 sets but Nadal was far from his peak.
 

True Fanerer

G.O.A.T.
Not favorite but he will have his chances if he faces Nadal in the final.

2012 He lost in 4 sets but got a set due to the rain.
2013 5 sets and really close of winning.
2014 Lost in 4 sets but was close of having a 2 sets to 0 lead.
2015 He won in 3 sets but Nadal was far from his peak.
Yes he will have a chance, but let's not forget Thiem obliterated Djokovic in their last two meetings on clay. He also lost his only match on clay with Zverev. Clay is when Djokovic is most vulnerable imo. He may not even reach Nadal.
 

Benjamin Rio

Professional
Yes he will have a chance, but let's not forget Thiem obliterated Djokovic in their last two meetings on clay. He also lost his only match on clay with Zverev. Clay is when Djokovic is most vulnerable imo. He may not even reach Nadal.
Djokovic is amazing on clay. He lost to Thiem due to lack of form in 2017 and 2018.

Djokovic worse surface is grass.

https://www.**************.org/tennis/news/Novak_Djokovic/61537/grass-is-the-most-demanding-surface-says-novak-djokovic/
 

Spencer Gore

Hall of Fame
Djokovic is already the greatest player of the 21st Century.

If he wins the Grand Slam he enters the conversation of GOAT alongside Laver.
 

True Fanerer

G.O.A.T.
Without Nadal on clay he would have won several french open. The same applies to Nadal. They are both amazing players on clay but Nadal is too great on that surface.
Djokovic has won 1 FO 2 monte Carlo's 4 Roma 2 Madrid.
Same could be said for Federer too with the FO. Don't get me wrong, Djokovic is one of the favs there or anywhere. It's the one place he can lose to a player outside of the Big 3 though. It can happen at Wimbledon too, but not as likely at this point I don't think. Clay is still a question mark until he plays it again.
 

Slightly D1

Professional
He’s closer to Nadal than Nadal is to Federer at the moment but it’ll come down to whether he keeps his game going. Hate to say it as a Nadal guy.

But he is not closer to Federer than Nadal is.
 

Tennis_Hands

Bionic Poster
IF Djokovic manages to get within one of Nadal the comparisons in favour of Djokovic will start to mount.

IF Djokovic equals Nadal, Nadal is out of contention, so, as hard as it is to bridge a two Majors gap, a major recognition is awaiting Djokovic just around the corner.

If that happens, Nadal becomes automatically number 3 from the big 3, no debate.


:cool:
 
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BeatlesFan

Talk Tennis Guru
Time will tell if Nadal can amass 4 more GS titles. Djokovic, at a year younger and with much less wear and tear on the body can get 6 more if he maintains his current level or something close.
More epic TTW logic.

So only "time will tell" if Rafa can win 4 more slams, but Nole will definitely get "6 more" slam titles.
 

titoelcolombiano

Hall of Fame
5 YECs, 40 and who knows how many more weeks at number one, one more YE #1, better distribution, better dominance, etc. are enough to put Djokovic ahead of Nadal.
Better dominance? The difference between the YE # 1 is literally a good end to last season for Djoker and and injury which means Rafa could play out the rest of the season. That is the difference between the YE # 1 numbers being reversed. Ditto with the weeks, you give Nadal YE # 1 last year and he adds all the weeks from the offseason right through to the AO and the gap is much closer. So yes, whilst Djoker leads, it is hardly a gaping hole.

Distribution is a myth - a slam is a slam. A masters is a masters. Djoker has won 8 clay masters, Rafa 9 hard masters. Djoker has won 10 of his 15 majors on hard, Rafa has won 11 of 17 on clay. It doesn't matter though, a slam is a slam. Rafa has won at least twice on each slam surface, Djoker has not yet.

And finally, Djoker is behind in the slam count, so I'll have to respectfully disagree on the premise of the thread.
 

Benjamin Rio

Professional
Better dominance? The difference between the YE # 1 is literally a good end to last season for Djoker and and injury which means Rafa could play out the rest of the season. That is the difference between the YE # 1 numbers being reversed. Ditto with the weeks, you give Nadal YE # 1 last year and he adds all the weeks from the offseason right through to the AO and the gap is much closer. So yes, whilst Djoker leads, it is hardly a gaping hole.

Distribution is a myth - a slam is a slam. A masters is a masters. Djoker has won 8 clay masters, Rafa 9 hard masters. Djoker has won 10 of his 15 majors on hard, Rafa has won 11 of 17 on clay. It doesn't matter though, a slam is a slam. Rafa has won at least twice on each slam surface, Djoker has not yet.

And finally, Djoker is behind in the slam count, so I'll have to respectfully disagree on the premise of the thread.
Djokovic would have finished world number 1 even in the case Nadal would have played. He's a much better player on hard courts. He won Shanghai runner up in Bercy and World tour finals.

There's more Masters 1000 on hard court than on clay. Much more opportunity for Nadal to be ahead of djokovic in that count.

Distribution definetely has to be taken into account. Nadal is mainly the undisputed king of clay a specialist surface with less competition than the other slams. It's a fact. Nadal has never played all major finals the same year and hasn't held all 4 slams at the same time.
 

Benjamin Rio

Professional
So if distribution is important,are we now going to go back and penalize Rod Laver since almost all his slams were won on grass?
That's the thing with the GOAT debat. It is tough to compare different eras.

But we can compare nadal and djokovic same generation.Djokovic is ahead because he's a better hard court grass court outdoor and indoor player . Nadal only on clay.
 

True Fanerer

G.O.A.T.
I love how people casually contradict themselves, Djokovic grass record is better by a margin compared to their differences in career achievement.
Nadal peaked on grass before Djokovic did and had to face Peak Federer in 2/3 finals they played at Wimbledon. Same goes with Federer having to play Nadal at his peak in FO finals. Two things Djokovic didn't have to do that always gets lost in all this. According to many Djokovic fans, tennis didn't start until 2011 the same year Federer was a 13 year veteran and still pushing Djokovic around.
 

mika1979

Professional
I agree that his resume is lopsided. I believe it only comes into play in the event of a tie. It seems unfair to me that Nadal should be ranked below Djokovic when he has won more times at the 4 most important tournaments in the world. It lays a bad precedent for the future as well. How much leeway are we going to give Djokovic? At 18 slams everyone will be crying GOAT if it's just an accepted fact now with Nadal.
It is all opinion, but doing the grand slam or holding all four is worth a great deal as it really hasn’t been done very often. I think the 5>0 is massive in tour finals, as Djokovic is right at the top and Nadal is nowhere on that. I think that is a bigger difference than a couple of French opens, this is why Djokovic is better right now if they both retire. Also winning all the masters matters as nobody has done it, Nadal is so far the best clay courter there isn’t a number 2 or 3 but maybe number 10, but overall I don’t think he can be put above Djokovic, maybe with a 3 slam lead. For Fed I think it’s different career wise these two are closer
 

mika1979

Professional
Nadal peaked on grass before Djokovic did and had to face Peak Federer in 2/3 finals they played at Wimbledon. Same goes with Federer having to play Nadal at his peak in FO finals. Two things Djokovic didn't have to do that always gets lost in all this. According to many Djokovic fans, tennis didn't start until 2011 the same year Federer was a 13 year veteran and still pushing Djokovic around.
Sweeping generalizations do not an argument make. I watched a whole heap of tennis, believe it or not it existed before Fed too. Peak this or that is absolute rubbish talk. Beating Peak Fed is as good as losing to Darcis is bad, so this talk about these wins meaning more is crap 48-11 against 65-10 speaks volumes
 

True Fanerer

G.O.A.T.
Sweeping generalizations do not an argument make. I watched a whole heap of tennis, believe it or not it existed before Fed too. Peak this or that is absolute rubbish talk. Beating Peak Fed is as good as losing to Darcis is bad, so this talk about these wins meaning more is crap 48-11 against 65-10 speaks volumes
Typical Djokovic guy that gives stats but can't back it up with actual tennis explanations and situations. Peak Djokovic was very fortunate that he didn't have to play Federer and Nadal at their best on their best surfaces. End of.
 
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mika1979

Professional
I love how Fed fans are talking Nadal up relative to Djokovic. So scared, if Novak gets to 20 they have no argument, whereas Nadal there will always be
That's the thing with the GOAT debat. It is tough to compare different eras.

But we can compare nadal and djokovic same generation.Djokovic is ahead because he's a better hard court grass court outdoor and indoor player . Nadal only on clay.
 

mika1979

Professional
Typical Djokovic guy that gives stats but can't back it up with actual tennis explanations and situations. Djokovic was very fortunate that he didn't have to play Federer and Nadal at their best on their best surfaces. End of.
Pretty funny how scared Fed fans are that their guy might not be universally accepted as the best. Take it easy 5 slams are a long way away. I even saw a thread saying regardless of how many slams Novak or nadal get fed will be the goat for aesthetic reasons. Tennis is about winning, and you can take peak talk and maybe call philippoussis goat coz he played lights out tennis at Wimbledon for almost a whole match against peak Sampras. Relax 5 slams is a quite a distance
 

True Fanerer

G.O.A.T.
Pretty funny how scared Fed fans are that their guy might not be universally accepted as the best. Take it easy 5 slams are a long way away. I even saw a thread saying regardless of how many slams Novak or nadal get fed will be the goat for aesthetic reasons. Tennis is about winning, and you can take peak talk and maybe call philippoussis goat coz he played lights out tennis at Wimbledon for almost a whole match against peak Sampras. Relax 5 slams is a quite a distance
I could tell a lot of you the same thing. Wait until it's official before claiming spots that haven't been earned.
 

mahesh69a

Rookie
In terms of prize money, Novak is at ~129M, Rafa is at ~105M and Fed is at ~121M. So, Djokovic is definitely closer to Federer than Nadal. /sarcasm.
 
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