Djokovic is closer to Federer than Nadal is

First of all, can I thank you for the respectful debate. It is good to have a serious discussion where we disagree but it is done with respect.

I can't disagree with you that Djoker may beat all of the records by the time he retires. At his best he looks untouchable and he has done it all in the time of Fedal. That is impressive. The weeks at # 1, YE # 1, WTF and M1000 records are all under serious threat from him and providing this year is a multi-slam year, he is still in the slam race.

Yes, WTF is a huge tournament and it is a problem that Rafa hasn't won it, but, it has no where near the media attention that the slams have and it is almost never spoken about in terms of GOAThood by the tennis media and general sporting media. In those terms it is more akin to a beefed up M1000 than it is to a slam. The ATP itself rate it halfway between the two. Rafa could end up with something like ten M1000 in front of Federer, there has to be a tipping point where that is considered at least a partial offset for Fed's dominant lead in WTF titles.

I can't quite put Djoker second yet basically down to the slam count, but I can admit that he is closing in fast and looks very focused on hunting down not only Nadal but also Federer.

King of clay, yes - but having won all four slams and on all three sufaces at least twice plus making all four slam finals at least four times each, I can't call him a clay specialist. A clay specialist is someone like Bruguera or Kuerten that didn't win any other slam.

May I put it to you this way; In this current era, we have a grass GOAT (Federer), a hard court GOAT (Djokovic) and a clay GOAT (Nadal). The clay GOAT managed to win 6 slams off clay in a time where he had to do it against the greatest grass and hard courters ever. The grass and hard GOATs have combined for two clay titles against only one opponent. Would you accept that 6 slams against, not just anyone, but two of the greatest ever is exceptional considering the combined achievements of the other two against him?

Just like Federer and Djokovic are deservingly talked about as 'would be' multiple RG champions without Nadal, it must also be considered that Nadal would have won much, much more off clay against any other era considering what he has managed to achieved against these two giants.
Novak's wins at the WTF have to be taken into account along the way. In my opinion with the beating at the australian open he is number two on the GOAT list. But Nadal and Novak haven't ended their careers yet. They are still loads of tennis to be played. Next FO will be amazing and a big turning point for both careers. Maybe just as important as was the last wimbledon semi finals. If Novak wins the FO it will be the second time he will be holding all 4 slams at the same time and that will get him closer to Nadal and Federer in number of slams. On the other hand if Nadal wins the french open, he will win his 12th FO his 18th Slam 2 away from Fed. In the case he would beat Novak in the final it could have an impact.

Nadal is not only the king of clay. As you said he's won the other majors 2 wimbledons 3 Us opens and 1 australian. He is a compete player but he's only in the discussion as being the goat due to his amazing clay court skills. Fed and Novak are more complete player. They are just as good on all surfaces. They only lost to the king of clay on clay. Fed would have completed a career grand slam in 2006 and 2007 if he hadn't faced Nadal on clay.

I do agree that Nadal would have won a lot more if he hadn't faced Fed and Novak. For example the year 2011. Nadal was playing unbelievable tennis the same kind of tennis that brought him 3 slams in 2010. He only lost to Novak at Wimbledon US open and australia 2012. But Nadal also lost 1st rounds at wimbledon in 2013 The australian open in 2016 showing that he is a lot more vulnerable on those surfaces than Novak and Fed on clay. I think Fed has played 23 semi finals of slams in a row and Novak has managed to get similar numbers. That's why i would put Nadal 3rd on the goat list. In a way he was extremely lucky that courts at wimbledon australian open and Us open were slow down. With his style of play i don't think he would have achieved as much otherwise.
 
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That thread was prompted by a tennis-related issue.

No wonder it got so few responses, in the place where very few even have a clue what it means. Same with the AO final thread, where apart from Hitman and one other person, noone has anything to say, but there are 3 GOAT threads on their 4th page at the same time, because everyone is an "expert".

BTW, you are delusional to think that your explanation works. You should read your posts in that thread, and enjoy the knee-jerk in them. Quite the hilarity, I must say.

:cool:
Nice excuse
 

Tennis_Hands

Talk Tennis Guru
I hope that my thread remains redundant forever, but should a disaster strike, I will remind you about it, and will remember again about your "impression about weirdness" expressed in the form of "troll thread" knee-jerk.

BTW, Andy Murray and Andy Roddick must have never heard about the expert advice offered on TTW by 12.5, since both of them wore ankle braces in competition (accidentally I also use either ASO or Aircast, when I experience such issues).

:cool:
 
I agree that it is underestimated, but the problem is that the WTF is such a unique tournament compared to everything else in the calendar that it is almost like a separate entity and mostly is used like a TB in case there is a tie.

I don't think that I have heard of or read from too many people about it as a way to make up for a difference in Majors.

For example, if one is to randomly assign to it Majors, then the same should be the case for Masters, #1s, YE#1s etc, and, good luck with that.

I think it is best to wait and see what happens, and when all is said and done to analyse how every achievement contributes to the greatness of the player, instead of trying to sum everything using dubious transformations.

:cool:
I have seen two philosophies of measuring tennis greatness on these boards. One is the tie break method ie Slam count is the only thing that matters & don't count anything less than a slam unless two players are equal in the number of slam victories. And the other one is: Count every significant event and achievement and sometimes if someone has less slam victories but a greately superior career outside of the slams then there are cases where they are ahead in achievement. I am in the latter school. I was of the view that Djokovic was ahead of Sampras even when Novak was on 12 or 13 Slams (due to the huge disparity of their Masters 1000 achievements - 20 Masters 1000 ahead isn't nothing).

The weakness of the first position is that it completely discounts 90% of the tour (unless the two players are equal in slam victories). The difficulty in the second position is the agreeing relative weight of the non-slam achievements vs slams. I have chosen to use the ATP weightings as they are the only one where there is some broad (though far from total) agreement on.
 
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Novak's wins at the WTF have to be taken into account along the way. In my opinion with the beating at the australian open he is number two on the GOAT list. But Nadal and Novak haven't ended their careers yet. They are still loads of tennis to be played. Next FO will be amazing and a big turning point for both careers. Maybe just as important as was the last wimbledon semi finals. If Novak wins the FO it will be the second time he will be holding all 4 slams at the same time and that will get him closer to Nadal and Federer in number of slams. On the other hand if Nadal wins the french open, he will win his 12th FO his 18th Slam 2 away from Fed. In the case he would beat Novak in the final it could have an impact.

Nadal is not only the king of clay. As you said he's won the other majors 2 wimbledons 3 Us opens and 1 australian. He is a compete player but he's only in the discussion as being the goat due to his amazing clay court skills. Fed and Novak are more complete player. They are just as good on all surfaces. They only lost to the king of clay on clay. Fed would have completed a career grand slam in 2006 and 2007 if he hadn't faced Nadal on clay.

I do agree that Nadal would have won a lot more if he hadn't faced Fed and Novak. For example the year 2011. Nadal was playing unbelievable tennis the same kind of tennis that brought him 3 slams in 2010. He only lost to Novak at Wimbledon US open and australia 2012. But Nadal also lost 1st rounds at wimbledon in 2013 The australian open in 2016 showing that he is a lot more vulnerable on those surfaces than Novak and Fed on clay. I think Fed has played 23 semi finals of slams in a row and Novak has managed to get similar numbers. That's why i would put Nadal 3rd on the goat list. In a way he was extremely lucky that courts at wimbledon australian open and Us open were slow down. With his style of play i don't think he would have achieved as much otherwise.
Agree with the bolded section of the first paragraph.

With regards to early exits for Rafa showing he is more vulnerable than Fed & Djoker, I am going to have to debunk that one - he has exited:
  • in the first round a total of 2 times; at AO once (2016) and Wimbledon once (2013)
  • in the second round a total of 5 times; three times at Wimby (2005, 2012, 2015), and twice at the USO (2003, 2004)
  • in the third round a total of 5 times; once at AO (2004), once at RG (2016 - a withdrawal after his second round match), once at Wimby (2003) and twice at the USO (2005, 2015)
Let's take a look at the same stats for Fed:
  • in the first round a total of 6 times; at RG three times (1999, 2002 & 2003) and Wimby three times (1999, 2000 and 2002)
  • in the second round a total of 1 time; at Wimby (2013)
  • in the third round a total of 5 times; at AO (2000, 2001, 2015), at RG (2004) and at USO (2000)
Djoker:
  • in the first round a total of 2 times; at AO (2005 & 2006)
  • in the second round a total of 3 times; at AO (2017), RG (2005), Wimby (2008)
  • in the third round a total of 5 times; at RG (2009), Wimby (2005 & 2016), USO (2005, 2006)
Early exits:
  • Fed: 12
  • Rafa: 12
  • Djoker: 10
I think we essentially agree on some core points though;
  1. without Rafa, Djokerer would have won much more on clay
  2. Without Djokerer, Rafa would have won much more on grass & hard
  3. None of them are retired yet and there is more history to be written
 

Tennis_Hands

Talk Tennis Guru
Agree with the bolded section of the first paragraph.

With regards to early exits for Rafa showing he is more vulnerable than Fed & Djoker, I am going to have to debunk that one - he has exited:
  • in the first round a total of 2 times; at AO once (2016) and Wimbledon once (2013)
  • in the second round a total of 5 times; three times at Wimby (2005, 2012, 2015), and twice at the USO (2003, 2004)
  • in the third round a total of 5 times; once at AO (2004), once at RG (2016 - a withdrawal after his second round match), once at Wimby (2003) and twice at the USO (2005, 2015)
Let's take a look at the same stats for Fed:
  • in the first round a total of 6 times; at RG three times (1999, 2002 & 2003) and Wimby three times (1999, 2000 and 2002)
  • in the second round a total of 1 time; at Wimby (2013)
  • in the third round a total of 5 times; at AO (2000, 2001, 2015), at RG (2004) and at USO (2000)
Djoker:
  • in the first round a total of 2 times; at AO (2005 & 2006)
  • in the second round a total of 3 times; at AO (2017), RG (2005), Wimby (2008)
  • in the third round a total of 5 times; at RG (2009), Wimby (2005 & 2016), USO (2005, 2006)
Early exits:
  • Fed: 12
  • Rafa: 12
  • Djoker: 10
I think we essentially agree on some core points though;
  1. without Rafa, Djokerer would have won much more on clay
  2. Without Djokerer, Rafa would have won much more on grass & hard
  3. None of them are retired yet and there is more history to be written

What is the point of such posts?

The context of such stat is regarding their susceptibility to upsets which means that they have already achieved a certain high level.

Federers first big tournament win was Hamburg in 2002.
For Djokovic it was Miami 2007.
For Nadal it was MC 2005.

Everything before that is unrelated to the issue at hand, as it is uncertain what their level was at the time.

:cool:
 
What is the point of such posts?

The context of such stat is regarding their susceptibility to upsets which means that they have already achieved a certain high level.

Federers first big tournament win was Hamburg in 2002.
For Djokovic it was Miami 2007.
For Nadal it was MC 2005.

Everything before that is unrelated to the issue at hand, as it is uncertain what their level was at the time.

:cool:
Fed and Novak hardly got upset when they were in their prime. I think Fed played 23 semi finals of slams in a row 10 GS finals in raw. I think Djokovic to a lesser extent has got similar stats. Nadal on the other hand even in his prime lost in the early rounds to random players in some tournaments proving his greater vulnerability.

2013 One of Nadal's best year on the tour where he won French Open and Us Open lost in the first round of wimbledon against Steve Darcis. And he's had some really poor results over the years at Wimbledon the most prestigious tournament. (Rosol Darcis Muller Brown Kyrgios)

Without Nadal, Federer and Djokovic would have won everything on clay. On the other hand Nadal may have lost to other players.
 
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He gets closer to roger and moves away the djoker on one hand.

On the other hand he increases his numbers of FO which makes him even more the king of clay and less of the other events which takes him in a way away from the goat discussion.
Don't talk rubbish. If 10 Australian Opens are what Djokovic finishes with, along with only 1 RG, it doesn't devalue how many slams he ends up with, or make him 'only a hard court specialist'.
 
Fed and Novak hardly got upset when they were in their prime. I think Fed played 23 semi finals of slams in a row 10 GS finals in raw. I think Djokovic to a lesser extent has got similar stats. Nadal on the other hand even in his prime lost in the early rounds to random players in some tournaments proving his greater vulnerability.

2013 One of Nadal's best year on the tour where he won French Open and Us Open lost in the first round of wimbledon against Steve Darcis. And he's had some really poor results over the years at Wimbledon the most prestigious tournament. (Rosol Darcis Muller Brown Kyrgios)

Without Nadal, Federer and Djokovic would have won everything on clay. On the other hand Nadal may have lost to other players.
Right so im guessing you forgot the players that Djokovic was upset by also? Sam Querrey at Wimbledon 16, Istomin AO 17, Chung AO 18, Cecchinato RG 18.
They all have their share of upsets, only Nadals seem to be talked about more cos it was at Wimbledon for a few years straight.
 
Don't talk rubbish. If 10 Australian Opens are what Djokovic finishes with, along with only 1 RG, it doesn't devalue how many slams he ends up with, or make him 'only a hard court specialist'.
Clay is a specialist surface with no competition especially the last two years. (by the way i love playing on clay).

Hard courts are nowadays really slow compared to before.(like grass) It's a fair ground where every style of play can be executed.

Fed has got 6 AO and 5 Us opens Novak 7 AO and 3 Us opens but has reached 8 finals and Nadal 1 AO and 2 Us opens.

I know Nadal fans love to pretend that the YEC are worth nothing. Winning 6 YEC and 5 YEC like Fed and Novak did is a great achievements that needs to be acknowledge.

Right so im guessing you forgot the players that Djokovic was upset by also? Sam Querrey at Wimbledon 16, Istomin AO 17, Chung AO 18, Cecchinato RG 18.
They all have their share of upsets, only Nadals seem to be talked about more cos it was at Wimbledon for a few years straight.
Everyone knows that Djokovic was injured in 2017 and 2018. Even not playing at his best he beat Nadal at Wimbledon last year who was on a great run until then.
 
So if they are equal in slam counts, I’d think Djokovic 5 YEC plus over 1y at no 1 will clearly put him ahead of Nadal.

I’d think those YECs are at least worth 1 slam.
It's a massive tournament with huge prestige (Past winners and prize money). It's format makes it really special and attractive.
It's close to a slam. Everyone wants to win it.

Even Kuerten a clay court specialist was able to do win it.
 
They made AO faster though in AO 2017-2019 the last 3 additions. AO 2014 used faster balls to.
USO and AO have switched so its fair.
If Wimbeldon slowed it still is fast enough to favour attacking players and is still one of the faster surfaces in the sport.
AO was slowed down somewhat in 2019. Just 2017 and 2018 were medium fast.
 
What is the point of such posts?

The context of such stat is regarding their susceptibility to upsets which means that they have already achieved a certain high level.

Federers first big tournament win was Hamburg in 2002.
For Djokovic it was Miami 2007.
For Nadal it was MC 2005.

Everything before that is unrelated to the issue at hand, as it is uncertain what their level was at the time.

:cool:
Careers should be taken as a whole otherwise we get into messy debates about when different players were at their peak and when they weren't. But I take your point about the player having to have achieved some level of greatness before we can judge them on their early exists, so if we for the adjust for the dates you have mentioned above:

Rafa has had 7 early exits in slams since 2005
Djoker has had 4 early exits in slams since 2007
Fed has had 6 searly exists in slams since 2002

It still debunks the narrative that Rafa has a massive lead in terms of early exits over the other two.
 
Careers should be taken as a whole otherwise we get into messy debates about when different players were at their peak and when they weren't. But I take your point about the player having to have achieved some level of greatness before we can judge them on their early exists, so if we for the adjust for the dates you have mentioned above:

Rafa has had 7 early exits in slams since 2005
Djoker has had 4 early exits in slams since 2007
Fed has had 6 searly exists in slams since 2002

It still debunks the narrative that Rafa has a massive lead in terms of early exits over the other two.
Because he hasn't reached 23 GS semi finals in a row 10 GS finals in a row hasn't played all GS finals in a calendar year. On top of that, he hasn't won the word tour finals even on some occasions lost in the round robins.....He's never had a year as good as Fed and Novak in 2005 2006 2015 season. From Wimbledon 2003 to Wimbledon 2013 no early losses to weak players.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Federer_career_statistics

As you said yourself, Nadal lost in the first round of wimbledon against Steve Darcis when he was in his prime.
 
Because he hasn't reached 23 GS semi finals in a row 10 GS finals in a row hasn't played all GS finals in a calendar year. On top of that, he hasn't won the word tour finals even on some occasions lost in the round robins.....He's never had a year as good as Fed and Novak in 2005 2006 2015 season. From Wimbledon 2003 to Wimbledon 2013 no early losses to weak players.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Federer_career_statistics

As you said yourself, Nadal lost in the first round of wimbledon against Steve Darcis when he was in his prime.
Re: your first paragraph - an injury punctuated career and prime will tend to return those kind of results. Re: your last, losing to Steve Darcis puts you out of GOAT contention? lol I've already showed the stats on early exits and they aren't really much different to Fed's.

Posters love to point out Rafa's shortcomings (of which all players have), but never seem to mention the extraordinary things that he has done that the other two haven't:

  • 11 slams at one tournament
  • 11 titles at three different events (one slam, one M1000, one ATP500)
  • The only one of the three to win a slam more than once on all three surfaces
  • The only one of the three to win the channel slam twice (the two polar opposite surfaces in our game)
  • The M1000 leader
  • Beaten the Federer in his prime in a slam on grass, beaten Djoker in his prime in a slam on hard courts
In addition, the narrative that Federer and Djokovic have ''dominated'' the game so much more is false. They only have one more YE # 1 than Rafa - just one. When the # 1 changed hands at the end of last year, the weeks at # 1 difference between Djokodal was something like 30 weeks - that doesn't sound like the massive difference in dominance that it is made out to be. Federer's weeks are much greater but he is 6 years older and also started accumulating weeks before Djokodal were in their primes.
 
Re: your first paragraph - an injury punctuated career and prime will tend to return those kind of results.

Re: your last, losing to Steve Darcis puts you out of GOAT contention? lol I've already showed the stats on early exits and they aren't really much different to Fed's.

That's what happens when you don't have as much talent as Fed and Novak. You rely on getting the ball back into play and get injured. It's not out of luck Nadal got injured it's due to his style of play .

Posters love to point out Rafa's shortcomings (of which all players have), but never seem to mention the extraordinary things that he has done that the other two haven't:

  • 11 slams at one tournament On clay
  • 11 titles at three different events (one slam, one M1000, one ATP500) On clay
  • The only one of the three to win a slam more than once on all three surfaces One AO and loads of weak results on grass
  • The only one of the three to win the channel slam twice (the two polar opposite surfaces in our game) Fed has done it once but has played all GS in a calendar year 3 times.
  • The M1000 leader King of clay. Most of his wins are on clay. Hasn't won all masters series event like Novak did.
  • Beaten the Federer in his prime in a slam on grass, beaten Djoker in his prime in a slam on hard courts Djoker has beaten Nadal on every court that counts: all GS YEC and masters 1000.
In addition, the narrative that Federer and Djokovic have ''dominated'' the game so much more is false. They only have one more YE # 1 than Rafa - just one. When the # 1 changed hands at the end of last year, the weeks at # 1 difference between Djokodal was something like 30 weeks - that doesn't sound like the massive difference in dominance that it is made out to be. Federer's weeks are much greater but he is 6 years older and also started accumulating weeks before Djokodal were in their primes.
The Djoker is going to increase his number of weeks at the top and overtake Fed. Nadal will be third.
 

Tennis_Hands

Talk Tennis Guru
Careers should be taken as a whole otherwise we get into messy debates about when different players were at their peak and when they weren't. But I take your point about the player having to have achieved some level of greatness before we can judge them on their early exists, so if we for the adjust for the dates you have mentioned above:

Rafa has had 7 early exits in slams since 2005
Djoker has had 4 early exits in slams since 2007
Fed has had 6 searly exists in slams since 2002

It still debunks the narrative that Rafa has a massive lead in terms of early exits over the other two.
He has.

Most of his early defeats have come right in the middle of his supposedly most prolific years as a tennis player, unlike the other two.

Also, your calculation is obviously incorrect.

If you count everything after the said years mentioned, you get:

Nadal: 6
Federer: 4
Djokovic: 4

If you correct that for the highest winning level (Majors) the difference is even more visible:

Nadal: 6
Federer: 3
Djokovic: 2

It means that once they entered Majors winning form, Nadal has been upset twice as much as Federer, and thrice as much as Djokvic, while being one year older than Djokovic and 5 years younger than Federer. The difference is huge.

:cool:
 
In some metrics yes, but main metric is slam count, he is behind by 5 slam and in case of Fed, slams are well distributed, winning at least 5 in 3 different slam.
Apart from slam count Novak is quite near to Fed, same year as no. 1, closing gap for weeks as number 1, 5 yec( one less than fed) more masters, winning all masters at some point.
 
He has.

Most of his early defeats have come right in the middle of his supposedly most prolific years as a tennis player, unlike the other two.

Also, your calculation is obviously incorrect.

If you count everything after the said years mentioned, you get:

Nadal: 6
Federer: 4
Djokovic: 4


If you correct that for the highest winning level (Majors) the difference is even more visible:

Nadal: 6
Federer: 3
Djokovic: 2

It means that once they entered Majors winning form, Nadal has been upset twice as much as Federer, and thrice as much as Djokvic, while being one year older than Djokovic and 5 years younger than Federer. The difference is huge.

:cool:
Ahh no, you said Federer's first major tournament win was Hamburg 2002 so Federer has had 6 early exits in slams since that tournament RG 2002, Wimby 2002, RG 2003, RG 2004, Wimby 2013 & AO 2015.

In terms of correcting the stats for majors, that is just statistical cherry-picking. Don't move the goal posts when your argument has been debunked.
 

Tennis_Hands

Talk Tennis Guru
Ahh no, you said Federer's first major tournament win was Hamburg 2002 so Federer has had 6 early exits in slams since that tournament RG 2002, Wimby 2002, RG 2003, RG 2004, Wimby 2013 & AO 2015.

In terms of correcting the stats for majors, that is just statistical cherry-picking. Don't move the goal posts when your argument has been debunked.
I hoped that for once you will be considerate of the conversation, but, "no".

Let us see what we have, and why: in 2002 Federer had his fist ever spring HC/clay court season, where he actually started getting serious results. You might not remember it, but I do: he had a very steady R4 or higher results up until the Miami tournament, where he managed to reach up until the final, after which his level understandably dropped, not being used to playing that long at that level. He lost early in is next tournaments, just to pick himself up , this time to win Hamburg.His next tournament was RG, where, again, his level was on the floor. Who beat him in the R1 there: the world #45. By no means a pushover, no? He had early losses at Wimbledon, Gstaad, Canada and Cincinnati , before picking himself up and having a decent performance at USO and till the end of the year. That was Federer's break through year.

Unlike him, Nadal had his M1000 and Majors breakthrough in the same year, so he achieved his higher level much earlier, so that was an advantage for him over both Federer and Djokovic, in that comparison, but I am sure that you wouldn't mind missing to acknowledge that fact, seeing the way you argue.

I proposed a method that to some extend eliminates that, but you were quick to get onto it, but without saying why. However I know why.

In your desperation you make the mistake to not apply your approach towards Nadal, so, let us see: I discarded also Nadal's results for 2005, after he won MC. However, even with your nitpicking, the results will stand so:

Nadal 8
Federer 6
Djokovic 4

So, Nadal has twice as many early exits as the player from his own generation, despite of maturing earlier, and a quarter more than Federer, despite of the latter playing for five more years.

So, even discarding the Majors level (which is a fair assessment for the reasons already stated), and your inability to defend your positions , leading to having to deal with multiple corrections, including correcting your own "unintentional" errors, Nadal is massively behind the other two, when it comes to holding against early upsets.

Instead of "debunking" the myth, now it is not a myth anymore , but a plainly explained truth, so thank you for the chance to show it to everyone reading here.

:cool:
 
I hoped that for once you will be considerate of the conversation, but, "no".

Let us see what we have, and why: in 2002 Federer had his fist ever spring HC/clay court season, where he actually started getting serious results. You might not remember it, but I do: he had a very steady R4 or higher results up until the Miami tournament, where he managed to reach up until the final, after which his level understandably dropped, not being used to playing that long at that level. He lost early in is next tournaments, just to pick himself up , this time to win Hamburg.His next tournament was RG, where, again, his level was on the floor. Who beat him in the R1 there: the world #45. By no means a pushover, no? He had early losses at Wimbledon, Gstaad, Canada and Cincinnati , before picking himself up and having a decent performance at USO and till the end of the year. That was Federer's break through year.

Unlike him, Nadal had his M1000 and Majors breakthrough in the same year, so he achieved his higher level much earlier, so that was an advantage for him over both Federer and Djokovic, in that comparison, but I am sure that you wouldn't mind missing to acknowledge that fact, seeing the way you argue.

I proposed a method that to some extend eliminates that, but you were quick to get onto it, but without saying why. However I know why.

In your desperation you make the mistake to not apply your approach towards Nadal, so, let us see: I discarded also Nadal's results for 2005, after he won MC. However, even with your nitpicking, the results will stand so:

Nadal 8
Federer 6
Djokovic 4

So, Nadal has twice as many early exits as the player from his own generation, despite of maturing earlier, and a quarter more than Federer, despite of the latter playing for five more years.

So, even discarding the Majors level (which is a fair assessment for the reasons already stated), and your inability to defend your positions , leading to having to deal with multiple corrections, including correcting your own "unintentional" errors, Nadal is massively behind the other two, when it comes to holding against early upsets.

Instead of "debunking" the myth, now it is not a myth anymore , but a plainly explained truth, so thank you for the chance to show it to everyone reading here.

:cool:
Nadal on one if his best seasons on the tour lost in the 1st round of wimbledon the most prestigious event of tennis.


He had won the french ooen and was going to win the Us open.
 
Nadal on one if his best seasons on the tour lost in the 1st round of wimbledon the most prestigious event of tennis.


He had won the french ooen and was going to win the Us open.
Nadal Goat of clay the specialist surface 11 FO 11 MC 8 Roma 11 Barcelona 5 Madrid but far behind on Hard courts Grass indoors. Can never be overal GOAT.
 
I hoped that for once you will be considerate of the conversation, but, "no".

Let us see what we have, and why: in 2002 Federer had his fist ever spring HC/clay court season, where he actually started getting serious results. You might not remember it, but I do: he had a very steady R4 or higher results up until the Miami tournament, where he managed to reach up until the final, after which his level understandably dropped, not being used to playing that long at that level. He lost early in is next tournaments, just to pick himself up , this time to win Hamburg.His next tournament was RG, where, again, his level was on the floor. Who beat him in the R1 there: the world #45. By no means a pushover, no? He had early losses at Wimbledon, Gstaad, Canada and Cincinnati , before picking himself up and having a decent performance at USO and till the end of the year. That was Federer's break through year.

Unlike him, Nadal had his M1000 and Majors breakthrough in the same year, so he achieved his higher level much earlier, so that was an advantage for him over both Federer and Djokovic, in that comparison, but I am sure that you wouldn't mind missing to acknowledge that fact, seeing the way you argue.

I proposed a method that to some extend eliminates that, but you were quick to get onto it, but without saying why. However I know why.

In your desperation you make the mistake to not apply your approach towards Nadal, so, let us see: I discarded also Nadal's results for 2005, after he won MC. However, even with your nitpicking, the results will stand so:

Nadal 8
Federer 6
Djokovic 4

So, Nadal has twice as many early exits as the player from his own generation, despite of maturing earlier, and a quarter more than Federer, despite of the latter playing for five more years.

So, even discarding the Majors level (which is a fair assessment for the reasons already stated), and your inability to defend your positions , leading to having to deal with multiple corrections, including correcting your own "unintentional" errors, Nadal is massively behind the other two, when it comes to holding against early upsets.

Instead of "debunking" the myth, now it is not a myth anymore , but a plainly explained truth, so thank you for the chance to show it to everyone reading here.

:cool:
Fed from wimbledon 2003 to wimbledon 2013 no early rounds exit 10 consecutive Gs finals 23 consecutive Gs semi finals 3 years playing all 4 slams finals the same year....GOAT
 
Re: your first paragraph - an injury punctuated career and prime will tend to return those kind of results. Re: your last, losing to Steve Darcis puts you out of GOAT contention? lol I've already showed the stats on early exits and they aren't really much different to Fed's.

Posters love to point out Rafa's shortcomings (of which all players have), but never seem to mention the extraordinary things that he has done that the other two haven't:

  • 11 slams at one tournament
  • 11 titles at three different events (one slam, one M1000, one ATP500)
  • The only one of the three to win a slam more than once on all three surfaces
  • The only one of the three to win the channel slam twice (the two polar opposite surfaces in our game)
  • The M1000 leader
  • Beaten the Federer in his prime in a slam on grass, beaten Djoker in his prime in a slam on hard courts
In addition, the narrative that Federer and Djokovic have ''dominated'' the game so much more is false. They only have one more YE # 1 than Rafa - just one. When the # 1 changed hands at the end of last year, the weeks at # 1 difference between Djokodal was something like 30 weeks - that doesn't sound like the massive difference in dominance that it is made out to be. Federer's weeks are much greater but he is 6 years older and also started accumulating weeks before Djokodal were in their primes.
What is this statistic in which Gonzalez 8 years number 1 and Novak was 6? What does this mean?
 

Tennis_Hands

Talk Tennis Guru
Nadal on one if his best seasons on the tour lost in the 1st round of wimbledon the most prestigious event of tennis.


He had won the french ooen and was going to win the Us open.
Yes, Nadal had a string of totally surprising losses especially at Wimbledon that should have not happened. One or two early surprises to an inspired players are OK, especially given his difficulty against certain type of players and styles (I mean his troubles with Brown for example), but overall he was underperforming far too often there.

I think that ultimately that showed that he was far less adaptable to conditions than originally thought. Djokovic did far, far, far better in that regard, and finally the results are starting to show. That is why I enjoy the history of the rivalries: ultimately, the freak occurrences are dwarfed by the logic of the normality.

:cool:
 
I hoped that for once you will be considerate of the conversation, but, "no".

Let us see what we have, and why: in 2002 Federer had his fist ever spring HC/clay court season, where he actually started getting serious results. You might not remember it, but I do: he had a very steady R4 or higher results up until the Miami tournament, where he managed to reach up until the final, after which his level understandably dropped, not being used to playing that long at that level. He lost early in is next tournaments, just to pick himself up , this time to win Hamburg.His next tournament was RG, where, again, his level was on the floor. Who beat him in the R1 there: the world #45. By no means a pushover, no? He had early losses at Wimbledon, Gstaad, Canada and Cincinnati , before picking himself up and having a decent performance at USO and till the end of the year. That was Federer's break through year.

Unlike him, Nadal had his M1000 and Majors breakthrough in the same year, so he achieved his higher level much earlier, so that was an advantage for him over both Federer and Djokovic, in that comparison, but I am sure that you wouldn't mind missing to acknowledge that fact, seeing the way you argue.

I proposed a method that to some extend eliminates that, but you were quick to get onto it, but without saying why. However I know why.

In your desperation you make the mistake to not apply your approach towards Nadal, so, let us see: I discarded also Nadal's results for 2005, after he won MC. However, even with your nitpicking, the results will stand so:

Nadal 8
Federer 6
Djokovic 4

So, Nadal has twice as many early exits as the player from his own generation, despite of maturing earlier, and a quarter more than Federer, despite of the latter playing for five more years.

So, even discarding the Majors level (which is a fair assessment for the reasons already stated), and your inability to defend your positions , leading to having to deal with multiple corrections, including correcting your own "unintentional" errors, Nadal is massively behind the other two, when it comes to holding against early upsets.

Instead of "debunking" the myth, now it is not a myth anymore , but a plainly explained truth, so thank you for the chance to show it to everyone reading here.

:cool:

Wow! So your first paragraph is waffle that says nothing other than in 2002 Fed had his breakthrough year, which we had already established.

Not sure why you would disregard Nadal's results in 2005. You were the one that came to me with the point that we should only consider the number of early exists from after they won their first big tournament; Federer's from 2002, Nadal's from 2005 and Djokovic's from 2007. These were your metrics, not mine - now you want to change the years because you've been made a fool of - lol . My original figures showed entire careers (i.e. not cherry-picking anything and letting their entire careers tell the story).

So which is it TH? Are we going with my figures on early exits in slams which looks at their entire careers?
  • Fed: 12
  • Rafa: 12
  • Djoker: 10
Or are we going with the alternatives that you proposed which is since winning their first big tournament?
  • Rafa 7
  • Fed 6
  • Djoker 4
Judging by the dribble you've written above you'll try and wriggle your way out of it by manipulating stats to fit your story - good luck to you, but that doesn't make it true ;)
 

Tennis_Hands

Talk Tennis Guru
Wow! So your first paragraph is waffle that says nothing other than in 2002 Fed had his breakthrough year, which we had already established.

Not sure why you would disregard Nadal's results in 2005. You were the one that came to me with the point that we should only consider the number of early exists from after they won their first big tournament; Federer's from 2002, Nadal's from 2005 and Djokovic's from 2007. These were your metrics, not mine - now you want to change the years because you've been made a fool of - lol . My original figures showed entire careers (2) (i.e. not cherry-picking anything and letting their entire careers tell the story).

So which is it TH? Are we going with my figures on early exits in slams which looks at their entire careers?
  • Fed: 12
  • Rafa: 12
  • Djoker: 10
Or are we going with the alternatives that you proposed which is since winning their first big tournament?
  • Rafa 7
  • Fed 6
  • Djoker 4
Judging by the dribble you've written above you'll try and wriggle your way out of it by manipulating stats to fit your story - good luck to you, but that doesn't make it true ;)
It is a "waffle" if you don't understand how development of the tennis players works, so I get why you could say that, if you weren't provided with an explanation. However, you were.

Bolded: I already provided an explanation for the difference between the two metrics.

If you consider winning a M1000 and winning a Major to require the same level of ability and consistency, be my guest.

If you want to argue that both are unrelated to the upsets potential, be my guest.

Bolded 2: including the entire careers IS the cherry picking in this case, as it eliminates the level that the players are on, before the early round losses are considered "abnormal". The point of looking for them is to consider when they were "upsets", not simply counting how long a player needed to get to a certain level. You may pretend that that is not the case, but it is.

Noone is surprised whether an up and coming player has many early losses in Majors, as those are not considered a true sign of weakness at that stage of his career vs the time when a proven champion suffered them. You agreed with that when you accepted that winning tournaments is a reasonable measure for achieving such a level, and now you are backtracking from that agreement.

I already explained by which metric I am going and why, so I take it your question is an effort to reinforce your effort at backtracking.

Another sign that you try to argue without even admitting the facts is you continuing to present an incorrect information.

It is 8 early exits for Nadal as per your own data, not 7.

You also somehow missed to address the argument that I presented in that regard: Nadal has twice as many early exits as Djokovic (with one more year in age than him), and 25% more than Federer with 5 less.

That fact alone showcases a huge difference in their ability to avoid the said upsets.

:cool:
 
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Yes, Nadal had a string of totally surprising losses especially at Wimbledon that should have not happened. One or two early surprises to an inspired players are OK, especially given his difficulty against certain type of players and styles (I mean his troubles with Brown for example), but overall he was underperforming far too often there.

I think that ultimately that showed that he was far less adaptable to conditions than originally thought. Djokovic did far, far, far better in that regard, and finally the results are starting to show. That is why I enjoy the history of the rivalries: ultimately, the freak occurrences are dwarfed by the logic of the normality.

:cool:
Im pretty sure it took Djokovic longer to become more 'adaptable' to surfaces. Nadal having won every slan in his early 20s, it took Djokovic to almost 30 to claim his first RG.
The surfaces now have never been as similar, which tells a story too about Djokovic.
 
Clay is a specialist surface with no competition especially the last two years. (by the way i love playing on clay).

Hard courts are nowadays really slow compared to before.(like grass) It's a fair ground where every style of play can be executed.

Fed has got 6 AO and 5 Us opens Novak 7 AO and 3 Us opens but has reached 8 finals and Nadal 1 AO and 2 Us opens.

I know Nadal fans love to pretend that the YEC are worth nothing. Winning 6 YEC and 5 YEC like Fed and Novak did is a great achievements that needs to be acknowledge.



Everyone knows that Djokovic was injured in 2017 and 2018. Even not playing at his best he beat Nadal at Wimbledon last year who was on a great run until then.
Always laugh at this defending of hard courts, yet clay is a 'specialist surface'.
Really its more grass is the specialist surface, as its the least used surface on the professional tour.
Im pretty sure if Federer and Djokovic had 6 RG titles each, and less on HC's, then the argument would be twisted that hard court titles mean less :-D

And for the record, Nadal has 3 USO titles, not 2. ;)
 

Hitman

Bionic Poster
Im pretty sure it took Djokovic longer to become more 'adaptable' to surfaces. Nadal having won every slan in his early 20s, it took Djokovic to almost 30 to claim his first RG.
The surfaces now have never been as similar, which tells a story too about Djokovic.
Nadal won his first grass slam and first hard slam at about the same age Federer did. Nadal had adapted to, and won on all three surfaces by the age of 22. That is crazy fast.
 
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