Djokovic is finished.

joekapa

Legend
I am a fan of Djokovic as most of you probably know. But after todays post on his Instagram account, I will say this. His career is finished. He looks gaunt, and unhealthy. He has lost a tonne of weight, which is evident from his sunken eyes, and I am afraid he is reaching the point of no return.

This is not something temporary, that you can fix by the start of next season. It seems to be something more than that. He seems to be insisting on his so called "vegan" diet, to the detriment of muscle mass.

I don't know who's influence has brought this about, but his downfall and it will be even greater than Federer or Nadal.

It's over.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BNPFSCYA3Di/
 

Jonas78

Legend
Naah im not so sure about that. Remember Federer after Aussie 2010, he came back strong in 2011.

Im pretty sure Nole wont have a Federer/Agassi-like late career, but we havent seen the last of him.
 
Better than the last few months but no longer as amazing as in 2015 and the first half of 2016. Probably another race between Murray and him for the top spot.
Like a season-long duel? Or tightening up at the end again? I have trouble seeing a couple of 30-year-olds duking it out for the crown over an entire season. Even Murray might be spent.
 

Noelan

Legend
OP you're a bit overdramatic here ihmo.
He eats this way quite some time. Give him time to recover terrific 18 months run.
 

Doctor/Lawyer Red Devil

Talk Tennis Guru
Like a season-long duel? Or tightening up at the end again? I have trouble seeing a couple of 30-year-olds duking it out for the crown over an entire season. Even Murray might be spent.
Two 29 year olds dominated this year. Even if they drop their level I don't think there is anyone who can dethrone them in 2017 but I definitely wouldn't mind seeing someone burst out of nowhere.
 
Two 29 year olds dominated this year. Even if they drop their level I don't think there is anyone who can dethrone them in 2017 but I definitely wouldn't mind seeing someone burst out of nowhere.
Yeah, I'd like that burst (and actually expect it). A lot of people have gotten on Thiem for overscheduling and shooting himself in the foot... but all of the ATGs played lunatic schedules in the early parts of their careers. Enabled Thiem to grab a bunch of titles this season. I think someone else could go overboard with it in '17, and seize the moment. What about that Khachanov guy?
 

Jonas78

Legend
Like a season-long duel? Or tightening up at the end again? I have trouble seeing a couple of 30-year-olds duking it out for the crown over an entire season. Even Murray might be spent.
Not that statistics cant be broken...

But as far as i remember, noone har finished YE#1 after turning 30. I have problems seeing who will finish #1 next season if not Nole/Murray though...
 

Doctor/Lawyer Red Devil

Talk Tennis Guru
Yeah, I'd like that burst (and actually expect it). A lot of people have gotten on Thiem for overscheduling and shooting himself in the foot... but all of the ATGs played lunatic schedules in the early parts of their careers. Enabled Thiem to grab a bunch of titles this season. I think someone else could go overboard with it in '17, and seize the moment. What about that Khachanov guy?
I believe Thiem will play several tournaments in the first few weeks of 2017, he isn't done with overscheduling for now.

Didn't see much of Khachanov. Aggressive kid with a powerful serve but I guess he is still too young to be the one to burst... We shall see.
 

joekapa

Legend
I am pretty sure Novak knows the formula for success much better than his fans...
So you don't see his rapid weight loss and loss of muscle mass ? You think he can sustain a great level eating cucumbers and drinking soy milk ?

If he has some sort of eating disorder, no one can do much, except a psychologist.
 

ollinger

G.O.A.T.
December 21 is National Hamburger Day in the US this year; might be nice if the members here sent him a gift certificate for In and Out or Five Guys, perhaps. Even Mcdonald's, really, as they have them in Serbia.
 

Doctor/Lawyer Red Devil

Talk Tennis Guru
So you don't see his rapid weight loss and loss of muscle mass ? You think he can sustain a great level eating cucumbers and drinking soy milk ?

If he has some sort of eating disorder, no one can do much, except a psychologist.
Djokovic was never a very muscley guy. I don't see any notable difference between now and start of the year. The guy isn't stupid, if some diet is a downfall boost he would run away from it.
 

Chanwan

G.O.A.T.
Not that statistics cant be broken...

But as far as i remember, noone har finished YE#1 after turning 30. I have problems seeing who will finish #1 next season if not Nole/Murray though...
Me too, then again, I DID NOT expect Murray to overtake Djoko this year. He seemed to be at Djoko's mercy by the end of 2015. And the first half of 2016, despite Rome, didn't change that too much for me.
Raonic obviously.
Raonic' the best guess, but he is very injury prone and I don't see him beating Murray more often than not just yet (0-6 for the year though 3 of them were really, really close). Neither Djokovic if he gets back to some level.
Djokovic was never a very muscley guy. I don't see any notable difference between now and start of the year. The guy isn't stupid, if some diet is a downfall boost he would run away from it.
I always have a really hard time at gauging weight loss from a man, who had 5 % body fat or so prior to this so called weight loss. He was always very lean and toned.
As for the two pics above, his arm is in a different angle in the picture with the smaller muscle.
 
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Jonas78

Legend
Me too, then again, I DID NOT expect Murray to overtake Djoko this year. He seemed to be at Djoko's mercy by the end of 2015. And the first half of 2016, despite Rome, didn't change that too much for me.
After FO this year you wouldnt find a single person who would put money on Murray finishing YE#1:). So as you say, scary how fast things can change.

That being said, Murray has always been a fantastic player, although living in the shadows of 3 ATG's most of his career. I just cant see any younger player of YE#1 calibre right now. Nishi or Raonic? I hope not:eek:
 

hotasice

Semi-Pro
it might be politically incorrect to mention it, but guys get eating disorders too

only he knows what's exactly happening in his life, but he doesn't look all that healthy these days
 

Chanwan

G.O.A.T.
After FO this year you wouldnt find a single person who would put money on Murray finishing YE#1:). So as you say, scary how fast things can change.

That being said, Murray has always been a fantastic player, although living in the shadows of 3 ATG's most of his career. I just cant see any younger player of YE#1 calibre right now. Nishi or Raonic? I hope not:eek:
that's why I've said that Djoko could go on to win many slams in his 30's (obviously, his guru needs to go and his motivation to return for that to happen). There are no obvious slam winners in their prime to challenge. Rao and Nishi can both win one or more, but they aren't exactly HoF material - unless they end up winning by default that is...
 

OhYes

Legend
OP, people also get old and they change because of that. Nobody can rejuvenate and look younger than he was (unless it's really good plastic surgery).
 
that's why I've said that Djoko could go on to win many slams in his 30's (obviously, his guru needs to go and his motivation to return for that to happen). There are no obvious slam winners in their prime to challenge. Rao and Nishi can both win one or more, but they aren't exactly HoF material - unless they end up winning by default that is...
There must have been several dozen people on these boards alone predicting 16+ major titles for Djok. That would mean at least a few in his 30s. With your "many" were you allowing for even more than that?
 

joekapa

Legend
OP, people also get old and they change because of that. Nobody can rejuvenate and look younger than he was (unless it's really good plastic surgery).
People tend to put on weight as they get older. Djokovic was skinny, but he had muscle, and was well toned. He didn't look gaunt. The picture on instagram shows that his weight loss is starting to become evident in his face. That IS NOT GOOD. These guys burn 5000 calories a day easily, and need protein (provided by meat) to keep there strength up. You cannot get that from a vegan diet, no matter how many nuts you eat. You need protein AND IRON.
 
Then he has to improve significantly. Murray and Nole can decline quite a bit and still be the two best players on tour. A clearly declined Djokovic just defeated Nishikori 6-1, 6-2, and Nishi is top 5.
Raonic was very very close to beating both Murray and Djokovic in WTFs. Not much improvement and decline needed and he starts beating Murrovic regularly.
 

Mainsacross

Semi-Pro
This may be news for OP but the rest of the world doesn't get fatter at Thanksgiving!

What OP also doesn't realize is that the crafty Djoker is training like an ultramarathoner, hence the slight weight drop. Next year he will extend all points to 50+ shots and dominate the field with his new found lung-capacity and endurance.
 

joekapa

Legend
The second part of season was bad for Novak and suddenly he’s finished? Wait for 2017.
I didn't say he is finished because he underperformed (by his standards) in the last 6 months of the season. I said he is finished because he is obviously on some weird diet that will not sustain his level for much longer. There is a difference.
 

joekapa

Legend
This may be news for OP but the rest of the world doesn't get fatter at Thanksgiving!

What OP also doesn't realize is that the crafty Djoker is training like an ultramarathoner, hence the slight weight drop. Next year he will extend all points to 50+ shots and dominate the field with his new found lung-capacity and endurance.
He has enough endurance. What happens to strength ?

At the WTF, it was evident that his shot did not have the same "pop" as they used to. Especially his backhand.
 

OhYes

Legend
People tend to put on weight as they get older. Djokovic was skinny, but he had muscle, and was well toned. He didn't look gaunt. The picture on instagram shows that his weight loss is starting to become evident in his face. That IS NOT GOOD. These guys burn 5000 calories a day easily, and need protein (provided by meat) to keep there strength up. You cannot get that from a vegan diet, no matter how many nuts you eat. You need protein AND IRON.
Well he can (is) taking supplements whenever he feels like it. As for getting weight, I agree if sportsmen aren't taken into consideration.
This is just one picture. I don't know what you've seen in it that seemed so dramatically different.
 

smoledman

G.O.A.T.
Let me know when he goes 10 straight slams w/o winning. A real drought like:

Federer - 17
Nadal - 10

they are FINNISH.

Djoker is not FINNISH. He is only slightly declined from his absolute peak but is good enough to win 1-2 slams next year. I also think Stanislaw the Manislaw will win Wimbledon to complete the "Career Stan".
 

roger presley

Hall of Fame
I didn't say he is finished because he underperformed (by his standards) in the last 6 months of the season. I said he is finished because he is obviously on some weird diet that will not sustain his level for much longer. There is a difference.
Yes,but his problems are all in his head and he’ll get over it. His looks shows a guy in trouble,but it won’t be for long.
 

Chanwan

G.O.A.T.
There must have been several dozen people on these boards alone predicting 16+ major titles for Djok. That would mean at least a few in his 30s. With your "many" were you allowing for even more than that?
I think I was at the point where I gave him something close to a 50-50 at getting to Fed's 17. Maybe 40-60, can't quite remember.

What I do remember is that I came up with the list below, every time people said: But you don't win slams in your 30's.
I.e. look at who's Fed lost to since turning 29 (Djoko's age at the FO)
US 2010, Djoko (Rafa waiting).
AO 2011, Djoko
RO 2011, Rafa

W 2011, Tsonga, D + R waiting
US 2011, Djoko, Rafa waiting
AO 2012, Rafa, Djoko waiting
FO 2012, Djoko, R waiting

US 2012, Birdman
AO 13, Murray, Djoko w
FO 13, Gulbis
W 13, Stak
US 13, Robredo
AO 14, Rafa, Stan waiting
FO 14, can't remember
W 14, Djoko
US 14, Cilic
AO 15, Seppi
FO 15, Stan
W 15, Djoko
US 15, Djoko
AO 16, Djoko

FO 16, NA
W 16, Raonic

Now take out Rafa and Djoko - two ATG's in their peak or prime in the respective years and matches.
The bold ones are tournaments where I would favor Fed with no Djoko and no Rafa. That's 8 slams.
Then I've underlined 3 additional. AO 14, where Stan would have been a handful, AO 12, where Murray would have been a handful (but still maybe not quite mentally ready to beat Fed in a slam? He had just hired Lendl) and the FO 12, where Ferrer was in the other semi, but where Tsonga would have been the semifinal opponent had Djoko not gone through.

Of course, there are so many what if's in this whole exercise, that it's kinda pointless. Would Fed have been motivated past 20 slams? Would Murray have won a slam sooner and have become mentally stronger as a slam opponent sooner? Would others have risen to the occasion?

Nevertheless, between Fed turning 29 and now, he was beaten 11 times by Djokodal. And far more often than not, he was the third best player by a margin in those slams and would face players with way less experience than him in those end of slam-situations.

Hence the reasoning - with no one near the quality of Djokodal age 23-29 quality to challenge Djokovic, who was left to beat him? He owned Murray 10-1 since the back operation at the start of the year, Stanimal only requires one slam a year (and is 2 years older) and Fedal are both past beating Novak at a slam. Then you have the lost boys, i.e. generation 89 and above who are yet to win a single Masters, Slam or WTF-tournament. Not a single player younger than 28 has won any of those tournaments. That's what I call and called a golden window of opportunity for 29+ ATG's.

All in all, even if Novak doesn't age nearly as great as Fed, he had and has (provided he can recover his form, motivation, mental capacities or whatever is missing) a golden window of opportunity. Murray has gotten better compared to 2014 and 2015, surely. But not to the point where I would pick him over Djoko outside grass, if Djoko can find something close to his own form. Afterall, both Nishi and Raonic were points away from beating him just two weeks ago.

The post ended up longer than expected, sorry.
 

smoledman

G.O.A.T.
Agreed, players just do NOT win slams in their 30s. Except for Stanimal.

Honestly I don't care about some 30-something that won slams in the early Open Era when it was lots of grass courts and S&V game. More importantly in what I call the 'power baseline era' 1990-present, only 2 players have won 2 slams in their 30s:

Agassi(2001 AO, 2003 AO)
Stan(2015 FO, 2016 USO)

If Stan can win a 3rd next year that will be truly historic.
 

Chanwan

G.O.A.T.
He has enough endurance. What happens to strength ?

At the WTF, it was evident that his shot did not have the same "pop" as they used to. Especially his backhand.
there were times (a few games) at the end of the final, when he was on the verge of making a comeback, that I thought he was playing close to/outright peak standard with pop, depth and change of direction at will. Then he started making errors again. The shots are still there, the confidence to hit them on a regular basis is not right now.
 
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