terribleIVAN
Hall of Fame
That's a very overlooked point .
Djokovic looks spent and used up, we will see if he really is the equal of Federer or Nadal...
- Thread starter DRII
- Start date
That's a very overlooked point .
clayqueen
Bionic Poster
terribleIVAN
Hall of Fame
And he lost in straight sets....against the guy he demolished just 6 months ago on a similar surface.
Bubcay
Legend
Well, he certainly wants it, no doubt about it.Tell that to Djokovic
clayqueen
Bionic Poster
Well not only because of that. He failed to win the OG which he'd set his heart on, losing in Bo3 twice in one week to Sasha and PCB, then he struggled throughout the USO 2021, only winning one match in straight sets then losing IN straight sets in the final. He didn't cruise through the rounds at the AO either, only winning 3 matches in straight sets and taken to 5 sets by Fritz.
SonicNirvana
Hall of Fame
I think Rafa ending up on top would cause the most discussion. let's say it's like 22-21-20
Garro
Rookie
2022 will be a very interesting year for Djokovic. Historically after his best seasons (2011, 2015, even after 2008), he has had struggles with motivation and maintaining that high level.
He cannot afford to do that now at his age. He still has the edge over the field at this point, but he came close to losing in Oz and at the French. How he plays during the rest of this season could tell us a lot.
He cannot afford to do that now at his age. He still has the edge over the field at this point, but he came close to losing in Oz and at the French. How he plays during the rest of this season could tell us a lot.
Bartelby
Bionic Poster
Novak probably has long covid, so he is reaping what he sowed. Or it simply could be old age slowing him down. Although he is still quicker than old club foot.
could be long covid -- could be the fact that he is 34.
I agree that Djokovic looked done in Tokyo and USO - however both of those were more due to the micro-situations of the tournament in my eyes. He had played mixed doubles & singles consecutively in extreme heat & humidity in Tokyo, then played 3 straight 3.5 hr+ matches including a late 5 setter at the USO, also in humid conditions.
AO will be a chance to go into a HC Slam well rested and healthy. I get you're only as good as your last match on here, but I've been proven wrong by Djokovic so many times in the past decade that I'm not going to bet against him just yet...
I agree that Djokovic looked done in Tokyo and USO - however both of those were more due to the micro-situations of the tournament in my eyes. He had played mixed doubles & singles consecutively in extreme heat & humidity in Tokyo, then played 3 straight 3.5 hr+ matches including a late 5 setter at the USO, also in humid conditions.
AO will be a chance to go into a HC Slam well rested and healthy. I get you're only as good as your last match on here, but I've been proven wrong by Djokovic so many times in the past decade that I'm not going to bet against him just yet...
GabeT
G.O.A.T.
He won 27 Bo5 matches this year. At 34. impossible to do that with stamina issues
Nadal won his last slam at age 34 - October 2020.
The guy who set the bar first is the most impressive, not the chaser/follower. Djokovic was chasing both Fedal, so it's easy when you have a target/goal in place.
idk - i mean wasn't the buzz all about how Djokovic was done and dusted after RG 2020? Then he pulls 2021 out. I'm less concerned with macro and more concerned with micro.
I think at this stage of their careers, draws along with conditions are crucial to the two achieving success. In the past couple years, at least, we have examples of the SF basically determining how Djokodal did in Slams.
USO2019: Nadal beats Berrettini in 3 in SF, has enough to beat Medvedev in 5, but looks absolutely gassed in the 5th set. In hindsight, a sign of things to come.
AO2020: Nadal has long 4 setter including 3 TBs vs. Kyrgios, expends lot of mental& physical energy, loses to Thiem in 4 in next round.
Djokovic straight sets Raonic and injured Federer in QF/SF, outlasts Thiem in 5.
RG2020: Nadal has cakewalk draw, beats Schwartzman in 3 in SF. Djokovic taken to 5 by Tsitsipas in SF. Obviously Nadal playing at a higher level, but Djokovic looked worse than usual in no small part to SF and draw.
AO2021: Djokovic gets out of Fritz mess, easy SF in Karatsev. Nadal falters physically and loses in 5 after being up 2-0 and being 2 points from the match in 3rd set to Tsitsipas.
RG2021: Djokovic plays easy 5 setter w Musetti and 4 sets with Berrettini, Nadal plays 4 sets with Schwartzman, but after 98-min 3rd set Rafa is done physically, foot flares up, 4th is a non-event. Djokovic almost loses to Tsitsipas due to slow start in final, luckily Tsitsipas also played a 5 setter in SF and Djokovic outlasts him.
WB2021: Djokovic faces no issues, has enough to be explosive on return and beat Berrettini easily.
USO2021: Djokovic struggles, and I mean struggles through draw, 3.5 hour matches from 3R-SF, concluding with physically exhausting 5 setter with Zverev, and it's the night match. Medvedev drops only 1 set all tournament, gets mugs in QF/SF, way fresher mentally and physically.
In every single occasion the draw and amount of time spent on court affected the result. At this point it's a tournament by tournament thing.
BayAreaBooster
Rookie
As a Fed Fan, to me, it is beyond doubt that what Novak has accomplished far exceeds Fedal's achievements notwithstanding them being identical in GS count. To me, Novak is the biggest of the Big 3.
BayAreaBooster
Rookie
Say all you want, mugs or no mugs, a Grand Slam is a Grand Slam. Each player plays the draw dealt to him/her, so it is not their fault they had an easier draw in certain years.
The difficulty of a draw has no bearing on the significance of winning a tournament contested by 127 other players as hungry as you are.
dude did you read my post at all lol?
the draw matters because if you play better players you must exert more energy and time on court to win.
When you're 34/35 years old or coming off injury, every extra minute on court becomes crucial in later stages of Slams. And as I proved in that post, Djokovic and Nadal have suffered their worst losses during or directly after long, intense matches.
Nole was the second to reach 300th.
Let me level with you. Had there were no Federer(310) or Sampras(286), there's no target/goal for Nole to pursue. He would have never work his butt off to go this length thus reaching this far. When a player set the benchmark, he/she step off the gas pedal because he/she is at the top. Unlike Nole, he was never at the top at anything and this is where the focus/motivation is on his side since the day he turned pro. He can't take of the gas pedal, because he's still chasing. BIG difference !
20=20, but context is everything. Got it ?
BayAreaBooster
Rookie
Doesn't matter. Djokovic and Nadal have a grinding, defensive game that makes them prolong their matches playing hour long sets seeing who lasts longer. Their playing style makes their matches grueling and intense.. Just watch their interminable 6 hour slug fest in the AO 2012 final. Fed would NEVER have allowed that sort of a prolonged match. Federer has an attacking, all court game, with a GOAT level serve, that takes it to his opponent. That is called taking the initiative. Just look at Federer's average time on court versus Djokovic/Nadal in their 20 GSs. I am willing to wager that Fed's average time on court is easily 30% lower than either Novak or Rafa.
Don't try to spin this as anything to do with draw. Naturally attacking players like Fed do not expend more energy than needed NO MATTER what the draw is.
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BayAreaBooster
Rookie
Fed did have issues with stamina in his old age just like anyone else though. Moreso injury, but still. And yeah, the serve and attacking playstyle is sort of how he was able to be so successful in 2017/18 at age 36/37, in a way that I am not sure Djokodal will be able to.
I'm not trying to make comparisons of any sort to Fed - you brought him up out of the blue lol. I'm simply trying to accurately assess the chances of Djokovic and Nadal moving forward in grand slams. These are important considerations for both of them who rely on movement, explosiveness, and stamina. I can try to accurately assess the chance Federer wins a Slam moving forward if you want to. hint: he won't.
BayAreaBooster
Rookie
Fair enough, I see your point. It bugs me no end when people say the sets that Rafa and Novak play are the greatest ever they have seen. That, according to me, is partially because neither of them is an all court/offensive player.
Yes, I was referring to pre - 2020 Fed in my responses. I think of him as retired. He lives in Finland.
Bartelby
Bionic Poster
He's doing while dropping sets. He even made a joke about not intending to drop first sets. It's all signs of at least a slight decline in stamina.
Bartelby
Bionic Poster
The difficult of a draw has no bearing on the significance of winning, but a tough draw would certainly be enough not to back Djokovic in a slam.
Anyone who thought Djokovic would beat Medvedev after his draw was wrong, and many here saw that coming.
Anyone who thought Djokovic would beat Medvedev after his draw was wrong, and many here saw that coming.
Bubcay
Legend
After RG 2021, almost all tennis community outside TTW has started proclaiming Djokovic the greatest ever. Wimbledon just cemented it. We, the members of the TTW community live in a strange bubble indeed. Anyway the topic title by the OP was a massive bite. And we all swallowed it without blinking. Well done OP.
zagor
Bionic Poster
He's still up there as far I'm concerned, regardless of the slam differential vs the big 3.
GabeT
G.O.A.T.
Let me level with you
Novak now holds the weeks at # 1 record and may hold the YE1 record by end of this year. In 2022 he will likely win #21 and hold the slam record. Not to mention he Alteady holds the record for winning all masters twice and all slams twice. This will provide Fedal and all others a benchmark to chase.
got it?
At least he didn't bottle it when he was in control like Roger did in 2019 and Rafa in both 2021 Australian and French open when he started both matches so much in command
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
Fedal can't catch him anymore. Look at Nadal, he is so banged up. Federer has retired. Novak will win at least a couple of slams so no chance for both Fedal.
DRII
G.O.A.T.
Don't try it.
As I have explained, Nadal has already had 2 twilight - swan years! The same as Federer. You constantly focusing on literal age is ridiculous. It's about the player's ability, regardless of physical age, which again is different from tennis age in some cases.
GabeT
G.O.A.T.
You remain unclear. in what definition is Novak post 2018 (was 31, came from a 2 year physical and mental slump) not twilight years
EddieChang
Semi-Pro
dumb thread they are equal at slams and novak leads no 1 weeks, but djokovic at that age does not have to face peak djokovic and Nadal like Fed did
DRII
G.O.A.T.
You don't know what all court offensive player means. Any of the coGoats can hit winners from anywhere on the court.
Federer is not pure offense! He rarely serves and volleys. He slices off his backhand 70% of the time. A slice can be effective, but it is not an offense shot.
Federer is a modicum more offensive than Djokovic who is a modicum more offensive than Nadal on average! Don't fool yourself
DRII
G.O.A.T.
I defined twilight - swan year in this thread and coming back from injury. 2018 was Djokovic coming off a significant injury, it was not a twilight year.
BayAreaBooster
Rookie
Be polite. You come across as condescending. There are people out there who have different opinions than your own.
Suggest you see, for each of the Big 3, stats on average time per match especially in wins. Fed is significantly below Rafa/Novak. This suggests Fed is naturally a more offensive and all court player than just a grinder like old Rafa and Novak.
abmk
Bionic Poster
Federer has 6 YECs+incredible consistency there (only 1 RR exit in like 16 entries - when he had injury problems in 2008)
Djokovic has 5 YECs
YEC most important tournament after the slams. You missed that completely.
GabeT
G.O.A.T.
You seem to have come up with a definition of twilight no one else uses. If nadal was twilight after 2017 then so was Novak after 2018
DRII
G.O.A.T.
Oh yes, I will take your demand for politeness along with your 'grinder' and old comments all in stride
Hopefully you don't find emoticons condescending.
DRII
G.O.A.T.
Well I created the thread and you're commenting in it. I clearly defined both 'milestones', coming off significant injury to dominate again and years playing a very limited schedule yet adding to slam tallies (twilight-swan year) , it's right there in the OP and further explained few posts down.
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DRII
G.O.A.T.
DRII
G.O.A.T.
Also, you should post such stats if you are going to rely on them for your argument.
Too condescending a request?
GabeT
G.O.A.T.
Yes, and that fits Novak 2018
abmk
Bionic Poster
GOAT does not exist. Djokovic stopped Federer and Nadal and then surpassed them. Whoever needs Djokovic to win Slam race to accept Djokovic is superior to both, it is very likely Djokovic will provide it before his retirement.
But please do continue to enjoy and have fun arguing the obvious. We are all good at something and doing what we are good at is what makes us each of us happy.
But please do continue to enjoy and have fun arguing the obvious. We are all good at something and doing what we are good at is what makes us each of us happy.
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