WTFs are much closer to the Masters than they are to slams. Its a high-end indoor masters. Elevated due to only top 8, slightly diminished due to RR format.
Djokovic low Final/title conversion in GS?
- Thread starter The_Mental_Giant
- Start date
WTFs are much closer to the Masters than they are to slams. Its a high-end indoor masters. Elevated due to only top 8, slightly diminished due to RR format.
Sysyphus
Talk Tennis Guru
Because you think so, and it suits your point of view? sure thang.
Just stating my opinion, like tennisaddict did. You didn't attack him, so I guess I know who you agree with.
tennisaddict
Bionic Poster
We can agree to disagree on the value.
To me, having to win 5 consecutive matches against top 8 is something that we dont even see in majors. The first 4 rounds in majors hardly matters. So, as against 3 top 8 players, you play 5 top 8 players. The only flip side is the recent BO 3 format change.
Masters have nothing to compare against WTF. It is just a prep tourney or what is a movie trailer, whereas WTF is the climax.
torpantennis
Legend
Wouldn't it be great to have this "exho" (like Nadal fans call it:lol
on all major surfaces!
tennisaddict
Bionic Poster
Wouldn't it be great to have this "exho" (like Nadal fans call it:lol
I sympathize with Rafa when he says WTF surface should be rotated and i think it is probably fair. On the other hand, his resume is already heavily clay loaded and any more clay accomplishments are only detrimental to his resume, when we compare career resumes.
You don't have to win 5, it could also be 4, and theoretically, 3.
It's the climax of a long grueling season, so hard to be in top shape.
tennisaddict
Bionic Poster
But , as all of us have seen, in almost every case, the winner won or had to win all 5 matches, except for a rare occasion when someone won 4.
It is incredibly hard, otherwise a stalwart like Rafa would have achieved it by now . He has failed in his umpteen attempts and also pleaded for rotation. That should tell about the value of the tournament as well.
And being in top shape at the end of the long season is not easy. Hence we see that the repeat winners are the true champions of the sport, incidentally players who excel on multiple surfaces.
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torpantennis
Legend
But really think about it, an "exho" of top 8 after clay/grass/HC/indoors seasons! That'd be one helluva season!
Charlemagne
Hall of Fame
I think this answers the question.
Djokovic2011
Bionic Poster
And that's nothing to be ashamed of.
addictedtotopspin
New User
fair enough
About WTF...It is important thing but i would put it after slams,after YE1,after weeks#1 and just litle bit above masters.
Like someone said, its one torunament per a year, after a long season.Players should be very happy if they get 1 or 2 of those titles.I dont see WTF something to collect all over again like slams and masters.
Although winning it 6 times means alot ofcourse but i would easy change 1 SLAM for lets say 3 WTF.Im sure Roger would like to have 18 GS and 3 WTF.Maybe not now because he has record on slams but if (when
) Rafa gets to 18 (with 1 WTF, or even 0) things will be much more clear.About Rafa and WTF.We all know who is Rafa against best on big courts.The strongest mental and most clutch player ever, that guarante him excelent game vs the big which he proves with his H2H but indoor at the end of the season is smthing different.First of all Rafa gets tiered the most during the year, second those are very bad environment for his game + its sutis many of his big rivals.
To make it all worse, younger Rafa wasnt good enough for indoors but had planty of strenght and stamina.Older Rafa definitly is good for indoors but has not enough stamina to reach end of the year + he has his worst rivle (cus of matchup) in great shape at the WTF.Im sure Rafa from 2013 WTF (not even close US open series Rafa) would beat any Roger and get his WTF but to beat Novak at the WTF he must repeat US form which is hard at 29 years old.Maybe if he skip US, but again he was unlucky to get problem with stomach, like this year. He had few unlucky situations over there.I hope he wins one title there sometimes.
okdude1992
Hall of Fame
Totally agree. People will remember all the wins, not the losses. Aside from the 2 losses to Murray, the rest are to all time greats Federer and Nadal who are simply better on the biggest stages.
Gazelle
G.O.A.T.
Djokovic is mentally weak (relatively, compared to some other greats). There was a time were he looked like having balls of steels but in fact he was only riding his momentum and relying on a few lucky shots here and there. 2011 has clearly shown to be an anomaly in the career of Djokovic, all the other years showed the real Djokovic. A very talented player, but underperforming due to his mental fragility. The worst of his losses are the ones against Murray, who is several tiers below him. Federer never lost to Murray in a slam final, and I bet Nadal wouldn't either if he met Murray.
Mainad
Bionic Poster
Djokovic, Federer and Nadal have all lost to Murray in several Bo3 finals and Djokovic and Federer have both lost to Murray in Bo5 finals so it was never beyond the bounds of possibility that peak Murray could one day beat any of them in a Slam final. Peak Murray (of the 2012-13 variety) was a force to be reckoned with on all stages! There was absolutely no shame for Djokovic to have lost to Murray on the biggest stages. Indeed, the very fact that Murray is the only player other than Federer and Nadal to have beaten Djokovic in finals of any kind, should tell you something about the calibre of peak Murray as a player and the gap between him and any of the players ranked below him!
The_Mental_Giant
Hall of Fame
We should see the impressive side of this.. he has played 11 finals in the last 4 calendar years...11/16.. actually its 12/17 slam finals if we count the USO 2010.. few players in history have statics such as this..
Rafa went into similar streak from RG 2010 to AO 2014 when he also got into 11/16 slam finals, but he had the bad luck to skip 2/5 of the grand slams (due to injury in the road) that he didnt manage to reach finals...and the well known 14/16 gs finals from federer 2004-2007, I guess few players in history can count with such impressive stats in slams as those 3.
I think djokovic has some mental lapses.. for example what he managed to do in USO 2011 vs Federer and AO 2012 vs Nadal he could repeat it later... He lost mental battles quite a few times...The well known ones to rafa at RG, specially the SF 2013, the US open final vs murray in 2012, and he lost mentally to federer in Wimbledon 2014 final, even though he managed to win the match in 5, he should have won it in 3, maximum 4 sets, I think Novak needs to work his mental part in big matches.
Chico
Banned
Another Novak hating thread designed to drag Novak through mud a bit more in order to make scared Fedal fanboys feel better.
:roll:
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Chico
Banned
The truth is Novak has nothing to be ashamed of. None of the finals he lost was due to him being weaker player but due to outside unfair factors.
1. USO 2007 - Choked in the first final - quite normal thing to do. Was better player in the first two sets but failed to convert 7 set points.
2. USO 2010 - Exhausted and unfocused after epic SF vs Fed, while Nadal was fully rested after extremely joke of a draw and even bigger joke of the SF.
3. FO 2012 - Rain. Nadal bullied the umpire to stop the match after losing 8 games in the row and being totally humiliated. The match should have continued.
4. USO 2012 - Wind. Was better player than Murray but lost first two sets due to wind and was exhausted at the end in the 5th.
5. FO 2013 - Pascal Maria. Nothing else needs to be said. Not a final, but de facto final.
6. W 2013 - Demoralized Novak could not go vs whole country and didn't even try to compete properly in the final. Also was exhausted after another epic SF he had to endure, while Murray was cakewalking to the final.
7. USO 2013 - see USO 2010. Also Nadal's dirty tactics from Montreal and Novak still feeling Pascal Maria's injustice payed off for Nadal unfortunately. Novak was UE machine in 1st and 4th sets due to that.
8. FO 2014 - Sickness. Throwing up all over the court due to stomach flu.
So none of the loses were because Novak is unstable, or not being able to compete in finals, or him being lesser or weaker player. All loses were due to bad luck and unfavorable and unfair circumstances. Nothing more. The luck and justice have to turn at some point and the time is now.
1. USO 2007 - Choked in the first final - quite normal thing to do. Was better player in the first two sets but failed to convert 7 set points.
2. USO 2010 - Exhausted and unfocused after epic SF vs Fed, while Nadal was fully rested after extremely joke of a draw and even bigger joke of the SF.
3. FO 2012 - Rain. Nadal bullied the umpire to stop the match after losing 8 games in the row and being totally humiliated. The match should have continued.
4. USO 2012 - Wind. Was better player than Murray but lost first two sets due to wind and was exhausted at the end in the 5th.
5. FO 2013 - Pascal Maria. Nothing else needs to be said. Not a final, but de facto final.
6. W 2013 - Demoralized Novak could not go vs whole country and didn't even try to compete properly in the final. Also was exhausted after another epic SF he had to endure, while Murray was cakewalking to the final.
7. USO 2013 - see USO 2010. Also Nadal's dirty tactics from Montreal and Novak still feeling Pascal Maria's injustice payed off for Nadal unfortunately. Novak was UE machine in 1st and 4th sets due to that.
8. FO 2014 - Sickness. Throwing up all over the court due to stomach flu.
So none of the loses were because Novak is unstable, or not being able to compete in finals, or him being lesser or weaker player. All loses were due to bad luck and unfavorable and unfair circumstances. Nothing more. The luck and justice have to turn at some point and the time is now.
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tipsa...don'tlikehim!
Talk Tennis Guru
The_Mental_Giant
Hall of Fame
Choke, sick, injury, cheat.. always excuses and more excuses from this chico :lol:
DerekNoleFam1
Hall of Fame
I agree about Murray, and in fact Andy was desperately unlucky at the 2013 AO, had it not been for his feet being blistered.
Murray was also in great form in Wimbledon 2013, despite Djoker being spent by Delpo in the Semi- which was his Novak's own fault, and should really have won that 2012 title as well had it not become Indoors.
It is Fedal fans who undermine him as a worthy opponent and Major winner.
Chico
Banned
No excuses at all. Just an inconvenient truth you don't want to hear.
As said this thread of yours is designed just to drag Novak through the mud in order to make you feel better. Well you need to be prepared for some truth.
Charlemagne
Hall of Fame
He should be very proud of his career. There's no shame in having a year like 2011 after all
tipsa...don'tlikehim!
Talk Tennis Guru
Charlemagne
Hall of Fame
To quote another poster on this forum, "Chico, you really need to get Djokovic's ball sack out of your mouth"
LMFAO!! Above post is perfect example of obsessed Fanboy in nutshell! Do tell us more stories! :lol:
Murray's chances beating Federer or Nadal in GS Final = :lol:
Delusion Levels almost reaching here:
:lol:
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MichaelNadal
Bionic Poster
:lol: Fan of MJ?
Just imagine forum without delusional Fanboys like Chico and Mainad. Whenever I visits this forum keep one thing in mind that irrespective of quality of discussion, I'll never get bored here with few great comedians around! With insecurity level from another planet, they somehow finds the way of posting jokes in every thread one care to read, irrespective of topic!
:lol:
MichaelNadal
Bionic Poster
I'm a child of the 80's
And yeah it really is entertainment. There's no way some of these people can be serious. Just no way. If so, I pray they're an only child, with no kids that just literally has nothing better to do.
And yeah it really is entertainment. There's no way some of these people can be serious. Just no way. If so, I pray they're an only child, with no kids that just literally has nothing better to do.
Djokovic2011
Bionic Poster
I'm a child of the 80's
And yeah it really is entertainment. There's no way some of these people can be serious. Just no way. If so, I pray they're an only child, with no kids that just literally has nothing better to do.
This place must be even more hysterical when you're high MN. I might have to give it a try one day! :grin:
MichaelNadal
Bionic Poster
Haha, I think everything is a bit more entertaining that way
The mall high.... omg.... :lol:
The_Mental_Giant
Hall of Fame
Wawrinka didnt beat djokovic at SF but QF...
ok sorry 10 char
but Wawrinka only man to defaet nadal and djokovic in the same grand slam
am i right
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I'll agree he should have won 6 and 7. But not sure if most of those are "outside" or "unfair" factors bud. Also I'm sure Pascal Maria's injustice was the last thing on Novak's mind in any of those finals.
torpantennis
Legend
Nole "should have" won 10+ slams, but the other factors, factors inside his head, made sure he didn't win.
kandamrgam
Hall of Fame
What a flawed analogy. The mistake you make is that people dont play that game with human beings. A life is so much special that it is not comparable to worldly achievements. Titles dont bear this emotional value and sacredness we attach to our family.
MichaelNadal
Bionic Poster
:lol: I didn't even read his crap till now. Djokovic was affected by Nadal's "dirty" tactics in Montreal? :lol:
kandamrgam
Hall of Fame
I believe RR makes its value higher. I know the usual arguments like "you need not win all the matches but still win the title" but I believe that factor is exactly what makes YEC more tougher, the other being top 8 factor as you acknowledge. You cannot get away with fluke wins or match-up advantages, you really have to be better than the "field" by playing all of them. I wished the entire championships was played in league format than knockout.
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Backspin1183
Talk Tennis Guru
Novak should have lost more finals but his opponents either choked or were too exhausted to get the job done.
I like this game :lol:
I like this game :lol:
BringBackSV
Hall of Fame
That's a good point. It does make you wonder about Fed though too, considering he lost a Wimbledon final to this same guy who is getting bounced by 100+ ranked players.
BringBackSV
Hall of Fame
Novak has the same number of Wimbledon titles and less final appearances there. He's got zero FO titles and 1 USO title, so you mean he's been more consistent where, at the AO? And hilarious that you are claiming that Novak didn't make up his major count by winning 1 major. If you take away AO, he has 3. If you take away the FO, Rafa has 5. It was funny to see you start off posts by saying "in fairness".... In fairness to whom? Does that pass as objectivity to you?
Also, since when did the WTF become a major? Just ask if you don't know the difference.
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BringBackSV
Hall of Fame
What is a fluke win? Also, if such a thing exists, how does it cease to exist in the semis or finals?
torpantennis
Legend
Novak has been more consistent after Fed declined.
kandamrgam
Hall of Fame
I believe few posters like NatF actually got it right, simply put Nole isn't as great a player among the ranks of Fedal. He has achieved what he is capable of. We are attaching too much expectation to Nole. We do not ask questions like why didnt Stan win WTF etc. Mind you playing along Roger, Rafa and Andy doesnt help either. We really have to think Nole is not the only really good player out there.
Roger and Rafa many not lose to Andy in a Slam final but they also may not lose to Andy in any stage of a GS, because they are that much better in terms of skill. Djokovic isn't that much. That said I do not think it's the big match temperament that's costing Djokovic here. I have no reason to believe he is mentally fragile. He is one of the strongest I have seen in that department. I really do not know what you exactly mean by his mental fragility. Few points:
1. Nole does choke. Everybody do. Who doesn't. We talk highly of how great a fighter David Ferrer is. He chokes too. Rafa choked in RG SF '13, Nole in AO F '12 & WC F '14 all choked a bit in closing out the match in the 4th set. In fact I can mention a lot of great matches where players choked.
2. Nole doesnt start matches like he got owned. He is one of those guys who believed Rafa was beatable on clay and Roger was going down at such a young age. Roger always played like Rafa was in his head. Even Rafa had a problem in bringing his best against Nole for sometime.
3. Few match statistics how Fedalovic fare in big moments. These are percentages, not absolute figures.
- TB record: Fed > Djoker > Nadal
- Final matches: Nadal > Djoker > Fed
- After winning 1st set: Djoker > Nadal > Fed
- After losing 1st set: Nadal > Fed > Djoker
- Deciding set: Djoker > Nadal> Fed
- 5th set: Nadal > Djoker > Fed
- Break points saved: Fed > Nadal > Djoker
- Break points converted: Nadal > Djoker > Fed
- Match won while saving match point/Match lost while having match point: Djoker > Nadal > Fed
I believe these little stats show who has shown better mental strength, simply put: Nadal > Djoker > Fed. What separates Nadal and Djokovic in the above stats is that in some of the categories Federer is too below in all time list, while Nadal and Djokovic doesn't fare as bad anywhere.
clayqueen
Bionic Poster
Exactly. Talk about consistency in QF, SF, and Finals is a consolation prize, winning is where it's at. No one ever gives Nadal any credit for the 7 finals he reached but lost to Djokovic in 2011.
kandamrgam
Hall of Fame
1. A win a player cannot consistently repeat.
2. It exists. "Fluke" is probably an insulting word to use, but I dont find a better term.
3. It doesn't unfortunately. But something is better than nothing. As I said, I wished the entire championships was played in league format.
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kandamrgam
Hall of Fame
True, but the implied point is? It would have discredited had Djokovic been playing the same level. Clearly his level has improved since 2011. Mainly serve, return, BH, movement and mentality.
kandamrgam
Hall of Fame
1. But overall win% is clearly what determines who has been overall more consistent. Average here is pretty decent metric imo.
2. I think prime can be adjusted when seeing their most fruitful period. Hence it can be adapted for both early and late bloomers.
clayqueen
Bionic Poster
The only place to start is from the beginning. Although Nolfans fervently believe that pro tennis started in 2011.
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