Djokovic-Murray Paris Masters Final 1st set: total of 10 winners!

donquijote

donquijote

G.O.A.T.
I don't know about the second set cause ATP stats doesn't show it but there were only 10 winners (and Murray had 2 more than Djokovic! ) in the first set in a match between World No.1 and No.2. Also there were only 11 net points played.

How sad is the state of the ATP in the post-Fedal era?
 
I don't trust stats for this. You have to see that match.

It's a lot like aces. There are matches in which a player only gets a handful of aces, but there may be 20 times that a well-placed serve results in an easy sitter. The result is the same.

When Novak and Murray play you have two of the best returners on either side of the net in the history of the game.

It would be very much like watching Agassi in the 90s, at his peak, playing against another player with a very similar game.

Novak usually wins because his serve is so much better.

It's hard to hit winners when the guy on the other side is Road Runner, and they are BOTH Road Runners!
 
Unforced error concept in tennis is rubbish. There is no such thing as an unforced error including double faults. There is a reason why, as an example, Murray double-faults against Djokovic while he would never in a million years double fault against, as an example, me.
 
If someone says that Murray or Djokovic is boring it just mean that he/she doesn't play tennis at any decent level. You need to understand the game to watch them.
 
ABCD said:
This is tennis as invented by Borg. He has introduced table tennis elements into tennis, particularly spin.
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That doesn't help to say. its 2015 now and we want to watch some fun tennis for christ sake. After watching tennis since I was born this time is quite sad for many of us. But bloody hell, its a lot of good tennis to watch too besides the top! I just miss those epic finals with brilliance hair rising on the body feeling. I have faith it will happen again.
 
Gary Duane said:
I don't trust stats for this. You have to see that match.

It's a lot like aces. There are matches in which a player only gets a handful of aces, but there may be 20 times that a well-placed serve results in an easy sitter. The result is the same.

When Novak and Murray play you have two of the best returners on either side of the net in the history of the game.

It would be very much like watching Agassi in the 90s, at his peak, playing against another player with a very similar game.

Novak usually wins because his serve is so much better.

It's hard to hit winners when the guy on the other side is Road Runner, and they are BOTH Road Runners!
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I am lazy to find the stats but I am pretty sure that there were more winners and net points in the matches between Fed-Djoko (final) and Fed-Murray (semi) in Cincinnati. Why can't the same quality players, world no.1 and 2 prevent winners happening when they play against Federer but they are able to do so when they play each other? Even in each set of USO final which Fed lost, he made tons of winners and net plays against the very same World No.1. If you're saying he was the winner after all, that doesn't relate to this discussion.
 
ABCD said:
If someone says that Murray or Djokovic is boring it just mean that he/she doesn't play tennis at any decent level. You need to understand the game to watch them.
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I guess Gasquet doesn't play a decent level of tennis.
http://www.**************.org/Richa...-Murray-is-Boring-To-Watch-articolo24030.html
Gasquet: You already know you are going to see the same shots over and over. Left and then right, back and forth. There is no clash of styles and no creativity".

and Ljubičić also doesn't know the game who said: "I’ll tell you right off: to me, that (Djokovic and Murray), that’s boring."

how about Marc Rosset: Marc Rosset said he gets no excitement by watching Novak Djokovic and Andy Murray: "Their matches are boring and always follow the same script. Even if they played 50 times, nothing would change. Only when Federer plays, there is always something new and unpredictable".
 
BeatlesFan said:
Arguably the only person aside from Boris and Judy Murray who would dare venture this opinion. Djoker versus Murray "fun to watch?"

Do tell... since when?
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Murray and Djokovic are only fun to watch if Murray can stay competitive and be a little more aggressive which he clearly was incapable of doing today. It was a Djokovic clinic once again today. It's scary that Federer is more competitive in his matches vs Djokovic than Murray is these days.
 
too bad Fedal can barely reach the semis/finals of these masters tournaments, maybe then the winners would double!
 
cc0509 said:
Murray and Djokovic are only fun to watch if Murray can stay competitive and be a little more aggressive which he clearly was incapable of doing today. It was a Djokovic clinic once again today. It's scary that Federer is more competitive in his matches vs Djokovic than Murray is these days.
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It is scary, yes, but it is only because Federer is just flat out better than Murray and always has been. They are on 2 different planes in greatness terms.
 
donquijote said:
I guess Gasquet doesn't play a decent level of tennis.
http://www.**************.org/Richa...-Murray-is-Boring-To-Watch-articolo24030.html
Gasquet: You already know you are going to see the same shots over and over. Left and then right, back and forth. There is no clash of styles and no creativity".

and Ljubičić also doesn't know the game who said: "I’ll tell you right off: to me, that (Djokovic and Murray), that’s boring."

how about Marc Rosset: Marc Rosset said he gets no excitement by watching Novak Djokovic and Andy Murray: "Their matches are boring and always follow the same script. Even if they played 50 times, nothing would change. Only when Federer plays, there is always something new and unpredictable".
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Gasquet, Ljubicic and Rosset?:rolleyes:

Call me when Federer and Nadal or Sampras and Agassi say something along similar lines. :cool:
 
donquijote said:
I am lazy to find the stats but I am pretty sure that there were more winners and net points in the matches between Fed-Djoko (final) and Fed-Murray (semi) in Cincinnati. Why can't the same quality players, world no.1 and 2 prevent winners happening when they play against Federer but they are able to do so when they play each other? Even in each set of USO final which Fed lost, he made tons of winners and net plays against the very same World No.1. If you're saying he was the winner after all, that doesn't relate to this discussion.
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I think in general Fed has always gambled more returning. He does not win as high a percentage of his return games as Murray, Novak, Ferrer, some others.

http://www.atpworldtour.com/en/stats/return-games-won/all/all/all/

Look where Fed is.

Now for HCs:

http://www.atpworldtour.com/en/stats/return-games-won/all/hard/all/

Same thing, way down the list.

Look at the four at the top: Murray, Agassi, Novak, Chang.

Sampras is back at 93

Notice how high up on the list old Connors is. ;)

The key to the game of Fed and Sampras is high risk at key moments returning, then hold serve.

http://www.atpworldtour.com/en/stats/service-games-won/all/hard/all/

Suddenly Pete and Roger are only under servebots, and a bit under Roddick.

Roger's game is built around quick strike tennis, as much as we can have that in 2015. He gets so many winners serving because his serve is so good, setting up easy one-two combinations.

Novak and Murray can't do that. Their serves are not good enough. Novak backs his serve (which is good) on HCs about the way Nadal does on clay.

Take a look where Murray is on this list. His serve is HORRIBLE compared to other great players.

Novak winning 86% of his service games on HCs for his career is impressive, but again he backs up that serve with defensive skills, as Nadal does (or DID) on clay.

Even this year, probably his best ever, he is down a full 5% below Roger.

If Novak had Fed's serve he'd probably have about 20 slams already!
 
ABCD said:
Unforced error concept in tennis is rubbish. There is no such thing as an unforced error including double faults. There is a reason why, as an example, Murray double-faults against Djokovic while he would never in a million years double fault against, as an example, me.
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True if you count any error as normal when players are nervous.

But that's not going to fly when analyzing the best players in the world.

The fact is that top players are not expected to miss 2nd serves very often, and when they do they pay. It is why percentage of points won on 2nd serves is such a huge stat.
 
TheGhostOfAgassi said:
That doesn't help to say. its 2015 now and we want to watch some fun tennis for christ sake.
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If you were a Top 4 player who can score well at GS and win a few mil. plus all the sponsorships they have, would you play FUN tennis or tennis that WINS?

Put yourself in their shoes. Who cares what you or I think! In any sport today with $16 million per annum or more at stake if I were in their shoes I would make sure I win and get that cash. End of story. Let's not pretend and be politically correct.
 
The commentators suggested they'd put the heat up in the stadium to make the court play slighly faster than glacial as it was at the beginning.

Did anyone notice this?
 
tenisdecente said:
Definitely, for all the top guys matches, this match-up it is the most boring of all. And when I say boring, I reall mean a boredom fest. No thanks
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I guess the most boring USO final match was between these two in 2012. Four hours and sixteen minutes of hell on earth. I remember I couldn't stand it any longer and left home to get some fresh air after the fourth set.
 
Mainad said:
Gasquet, Ljubicic and Rosset?:rolleyes:

Call me when Federer and Nadal or Sampras and Agassi say something along similar lines. :cool:
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Why would they say that? Gasquet had the guts to speak his mind (maybe part of being French) but we know for many it is not a necessary act and would make feuds. Still, Sampras had a few words without naming a particular player which tells a lot:

“The players have become too much one dimensional,” Sampras said. “They stay at the back of the court and wait for the opponent to commit the mistake. It is harder to return to the net and easier to stay at the back.”
 
donquijote said:
Why would they say that? Gasquet had the guts to speak his mind (maybe part of being French) but we know for many it is not a necessary act and would make feuds.
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Lol...the day when Djokovic and Murray will sit down to be lectured by the likes of Gasquet on how to play tennis is probably the same day when the sun will cease to shine!

donquijote said:
Still, Sampras had a few words without naming a particular player which tells a lot:

“The players have become too much one dimensional,” Sampras said. “They stay at the back of the court and wait for the opponent to commit the mistake. It is harder to return to the net and easier to stay at the back.”
Click to expand...

A tad ironic when you consider that it was the Sampras/Ivanisevic wham-bam-thank you-mam style of tennis at Wimbledon that got so many complaints that tennis courts all over the world immediately started slowing down their surfaces!
 
donquijote said:
Why would they say that? Gasquet had the guts to speak his mind (maybe part of being French) but we know for many it is not a necessary act and would make feuds. Still, Sampras had a few words without naming a particular player which tells a lot:

“The players have become too much one dimensional,” Sampras said. “They stay at the back of the court and wait for the opponent to commit the mistake. It is harder to return to the net and easier to stay at the back.”
Click to expand...

Tennis level is lower and a weak era, plus boring tennis everybody complaints about.
Sampras is so right. Coward tennis!
 
Mainad said:
A tad ironic when you consider that it was the Sampras/Ivanisevic wham-bam-thank you-mam style of tennis at Wimbledon that got so many complaints that tennis courts all over the world immediately started slowing down their surfaces!
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Think they regret that now making it slower!
 
TheGhostOfAgassi said:
Think they regret that now making it slower!
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They perhaps need to come up with a mixture of surfaces of different speeds but no-one wants to go back to a style of tennis that consisted of serve-point-serve-point such as Sampras and many of his opponents played in their day especially at Wimbledon. That was boring beyond belief and got so many complaints that tournaments everywhere had to slow down their surfaces like I said.
 
Mainad said:
Complaining about what? Who is complaining?
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Even the Queen of England sending morse codes over to ATP and demands for change. Hollywood stars have a boycott campaign against boring match ups. NASA is involved as I mentioned earlier. David Icke blames the reptiles as usual, saying Novak is looking like a snake on the court and are more or less in the gang of reptiles thats destroying our planet. For the first time its registered in a hospital in Canada a man 31 year old died of boredom watching the match on TV. It has become a global thing. Bet when China get their nose in this things will start to roll.
 
TheGhostOfAgassi said:
Even the Queen of England sending morse codes over to ATP and demands for change. Hollywood stars have a boycott campaign against boring match ups. NASA is involved as I mentioned earlier. David Icke blames the reptiles as usual, saying Novak is looking like a snake on the court and are more or less in the gang of reptiles thats destroying our planet. For the first time its registered in a hospital in Canada a man 31 year old died of boredom watching the match on TV. It has become a global thing. Bet when China get their nose in this things will start to roll.
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Wow, I never knew so many big wigs cared so much about the state of tennis! With that lot leading the charge, who cares what small fry like Reeshard Gaskay have to say? ;)
 
Mainad said:
Wow, I never knew so many big wigs cared so much about the state of tennis! With that lot leading the charge, who cares what small fry like Reeshard Gaskay have to say? ;)
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Its even a new rule coming saying that every player has to produce at least 15 winners each in every set, otherwise they loose a whole point. 10 or less they will also get smacked on the bum, Andrew Castle will do the smacking using one of his old racquets he has used in his epic matches(-his words, delusional as always)

In a secret place in the desert ATP is collaborating with a group of beduins making tennis balls that will explode if the rallies are more than 20 shots long.
Marrocan hasish is not one the doping list anymore for those who are one the very well known list of boring tennis players/

So yeah, can call it revolution! Viva the sport of tennis!
 
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donquijote said:
I guess Gasquet doesn't play a decent level of tennis.
http://www.**************.org/Richa...-Murray-is-Boring-To-Watch-articolo24030.html
Gasquet: You already know you are going to see the same shots over and over. Left and then right, back and forth. There is no clash of styles and no creativity".

and Ljubičić also doesn't know the game who said: "I’ll tell you right off: to me, that (Djokovic and Murray), that’s boring."

how about Marc Rosset: Marc Rosset said he gets no excitement by watching Novak Djokovic and Andy Murray: "Their matches are boring and always follow the same script. Even if they played 50 times, nothing would change. Only when Federer plays, there is always something new and unpredictable".
Click to expand...
Sour grapes?
 
MarcusInKensington said:
Only Stan can save tennis. He's the only player that can worry Djokovic, aka T-1000 right now.
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Yes. I was also impressed with Berdych's attempt, but he is hardly noticed on this board. He played very offensive tennis and had set point in both sets. He overplayed on those (three in total) and paid the price. Still he managed to make Djokovic more uncomfortable than he is against Murray nowadays.

Djokovic's defence has improved further + Novak's 2nd serve is about a million times better than Murray's.
 
Mainad said:
Lol...the day when Djokovic and Murray will sit down to be lectured by the likes of Gasquet on how to play tennis is probably the same day when the sun will cease to shine!
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We're not talking about winning here. I've never seen a person saying Gasquet plays an ugly game, quite the contrary people say how beautiful even his strokes alone. Maybe winning is all that matters for some top players but for people who are watching is a different story unless you're their family.
I guarantee you that I will not watch the next Djokovic-Murray match.
 
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ABCD said:
Sour grapes?
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First you claimed someone who finds Novak-Andy duel boring doesn't play a decent level of tennis, now you're commenting this 'sour grapes' thing. So you're making an additional condition that is if someone plays a decent level of tennis and still finds it boring then they have sour grapes and not honest with their opinion. Gasquet is quite a peaceful player. We never see him getting into any exchanges on and off the court. He's just expressing an honest opinion here and I respect that.
 
They don't count balls that Novak or Andy may have got a racket on but that fell outside of the lines as a winner right? So the whole winner definition might not give an accurate picture of how exciting or defensive in comparison to offensive the match was, being that these guys are the best two defenders in the world they'll get to just about every ball regardless.
 
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