Djokovic-Nadal H2H is more one-sided on HC than Clay

alexio88

Hall of Fame
I consider Tyson a great champion. He was an absolute wrecking machine during the 80s, his devastating hooks and movement was killer. One of the greatest during his peak IMO.
would be fun to watch peak ali vs peak tyson, probably ali would win that hypothetical fight:)
 

Hitman

Hall of Fame
would be fun to watch peak ali vs peak tyson, probably ali would win that hypothetical fight:)
Well, Ali took on Frazier in The Thrilla from Manilla, and Frazier hits just as hard as Tyson. Tyson had the better slip, Frazier had the better bob IMO. Tyson would come out strong and swinging, but Ali would move him around and frustrate him.
 

clout

Hall of Fame
With all due respect, Djokovic was able to get a lot of wins off of Nadal between 2014-16 when Rafa was in the worst form of his life and Novak was in the best form of his life. As much as I respect Novak, he beat up on an older Federer and wayyyy out of form Nadal quite a lot over the last few years.
 

clout

Hall of Fame
I see some comments made about just the slam wins, OK, lets go into the slam wins then.

Djokovic has beaten Nadal at all four slams, the same cannot be said in reverse.
If anyone wants to say Djokovic beat a poor Nadal at RG, then how about the fact that Nadal never beat a healthy Djokovic at W. And beating Djokovic at RG 2006 was truly taking down a world beater right?
Djokovic beat Nadal in three straight slam finals, the first time in history that has happened that one player has lost three straight slam finals to the same opponent
Djokovic has stopped Nadal from completing the amazing double career slam at AO
The slam final head to head is 4-4 between them, so saying that Djokovic fails in the matches that matter most is completely false, and done it in three different slam venues to Nadal's two.
Djokovic has beaten Nadal while he was defending champion at three different slams on three different surfaces, and before you say RG was a terrible Nadal, please refer back to point two.
Djokovic stopped Nadal from equalling Borg with three channel slams not once, but twice - 2011 and 2018
In their epic five set matches in slams, Djokovic leads 2-1 AO 2012 and W 2018 v RG 2013
Djokovic was the first man to beat Nadal in a slam final in which Nadal got to without dropping a single set
Djokovic is also the first man to straight set Nadal in a slam final, the opposite is not true

To say Djokovic didn't bring it to the slams is kind of funny, yes Nadal hurt him, but you better believe Djokovic landed some massive blows of his own on the biggest stages.
Tbh he’s ended up hurting Federer more than Nadal in retrospect
 

clout

Hall of Fame
Yes he did.

Both Federer and Nadal have been hurt the most by Djokovic.
Nadal probably hurt Federer a bit more than Novak did since Nadal inflicted the most pain on Fed when Fed was the best in the world and expected to win, while Novak was the Vegas favorite in a lot of Federer's most heartbreaking losses to the Serb.
 

Incognito

Legend
Take note! Nadal’s dominance on clay started in 2005, and his peak ended in 2009.

Djokovic couldn’t touch him on masters until 2011, that’s 6-7 years. And at RG, 10 years after Rafa started his dominance.
 

octogon

Hall of Fame
Yes he did.

Both Federer and Nadal have been hurt the most by Djokovic.

More like both Federer and Djokovic have been hurt the most by Nadal.

Nadal is in pole position to take Federer's slam record away from him before he retires, and looks like he will leave Djokovic a mountain (and a NextGen) to climb to even get to Federer's current total.
 
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Hitman

Hall of Fame
More like both Federer and Djokovic have been hurt the most by Nadal.

Nadal is in pole position to take Federer's slam record away from him before he retires, and looks like he will leave Djokovic a mountain (and a NextGen) to climb to even get to Federer's current total.
 

Lew II

Legend
9-6 at slams.

Fair to say, Nadal has been overall a bigger nightmare for Djokovic than the other way around and has directly prevented him from getting GOAT status with all those slam wins against him.

It's why the rivalry is fascinating. They've hurt each other a lot, but Nadal has hurt Djokovic more. Djokovic fans like to harp on about "off-clay since 2013" or whatnot, but those are the plain facts.
Without Djokovic Nadal is the favourite for 6 slams:

2011 WI
2011 UO
2012 AO
2015 RG
2018 WI
2019 AO

Without Nadal Djokovic is the favourite for 5 slams:

2010 UO
2012 RG
2013 RG
2013 UO
2014 RG
 

octogon

Hall of Fame
Without Djokovic Nadal is the favourite for 6 slams:

2011 WI
2011 UO
2012 AO
2015 RG
2018 WI
2019 AO

Without Nadal Djokovic is the favourite for 5 slams:

2010 UO
2012 RG
2013 RG
2013 UO
2014 RG
RG 2015....LOL!!!!! You are insane. Nadal was a dead man walking that year. A stiff breeze could have beaten him at RG that year.

Nadal played well at Wimbledon 2018, after many years of not going deep in the tournament. He was nowhere near a pre-tournament favorite because he'd not done well at Wimbledon for years, and with Federer and Djokovic in the tournament, at best he'd be third favorite.

AO 2019. Without Djokovic, the pre-tournament favorite would have been the defending champion, Roger Federer. Again, coming into the tournament, Nadal should have been at best third favorite.

You are confusing Nadal going deep and actual favorites being knocked out with being the favorite. At least 2 of these slams would have had Federer designated as the favorite if Djokovic wasn't there. Djokovic really didn't cost Nadal as much as you'd like to believe. Some of those wins would have been extra gravy, but not expected.
 
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octogon

Hall of Fame
The odds were not made by me. Experts said Nadal was the favourite without Djokovic.


If the Odds told you to jump off a bridge, would you do it?

Oddsmakers call it wrong a lot. It's ok to accept that instead of acting like they are inffallible. Nadal just got given the benefit of the doubt by bookies regardless of his awful form coming into RG 2015 because of his track record there. But he failed the eye test to anyone who understood the game of tennis.
 

Hitman

Hall of Fame
Lew and RF-18 don't even realize how much they are insulting Djokovic by saying Nadal was going to win RG 2015. :-D :-D :-D :-D
Nadal was a hot mess after he came back from injury post USO 2014 for the next two years. Honestly though, he was on a downward spiral after AO 2014 when that back injury ended his prime.
 

Lew II

Legend
If the Odds told you to jump off a bridge, would you do it?

Oddsmakers call it wrong a lot. It's ok to accept that instead of acting like they are inffallible. Nadal just got given the benefit of the doubt by bookies regardless of his awful form coming into RG 2015 because of his track record there. But he failed the eye test to anyone who understood the game of tennis.
I'll take the odds over your opinion. Thanks.
 

Lew II

Legend
RG 2015....LOL!!!!! You are insane. Nadal was a dead man walking that year. A stiff breeze could have beaten him at RG that year.

Nadal played well at Wimbledon 2018, after many years of not going deep in the tournament. He was nowhere near a pre-tournament favorite because he'd not done well at Wimbledon for years, and with Federer and Djokovic in the tournament, at best he'd be third favorite.

AO 2019. Without Djokovic, the pre-tournament favorite would have been the defending champion, Roger Federer. Again, coming into the tournament, Nadal should have been at best third favorite.

You are confusing Nadal going deep and actual favorites being knocked out with being the favorite. At least 2 of these slams would have had Federer designated as the favorite if Djokovic wasn't there. Djokovic really didn't cost Nadal as much as you'd like to win. Some of those wins would have been extra gravy, but not expected.
How was Federer the favourite if he lost to Anderson and Tsitsipas?

Nadal without Djokovic would have been the favourite to beat the players still left in the tournament at WI 2018 and AO 2019.

Same for 2015 RG. That's what the odds say.
 

octogon

Hall of Fame
How was Federer the favourite if he lost to Anderson and Tsitsipas?

Nadal without Djokovic would have been the favourite for WI18 and AO19 as he was the favourite to beat the players still in the tournament.

Same for 2015 RG. That's what the odds say.
Federer was upset. It happens
 

daggerman

Rookie
Maybe just maybe it has to do with all the matches that happened in 2015-2016 when RAFA was in his absolute worst form :unsure: Joker racked up 7 wins in that time period. On the flip side, RAFA only got to play Joker twice during his slump.
Sure, but Rafa played Djokovic a bunch before Novak even reached his prime. I'd say it evens out.
 

The_Order

G.O.A.T.
Read my post above. I disagree. I think they have hurt each other just as much.
They have hurt each other equally imo.

The only thing is, Nadal started winning slams earlier than Novak did. His consistency from teen to 30+ to keep winning majors, even more than Novak after turning 30 is quite significant. It's the reason he still has 3 more majors than him.
 

Hitman

Hall of Fame
They have hurt each other equally imo.

The only thing is, Nadal started winning slams earlier than Novak did. His consistency from teen to 30+ to keep winning majors, even more than Novak after turning 30 is quite significant. It's the reason he still has 3 more majors than him.
This is a balanced post IMO and I wholeheartedly agree.
 

BringBackSV

Hall of Fame
Well, Ali took on Frazier in The Thrilla from Manilla, and Frazier hits just as hard as Tyson. Tyson had the better slip, Frazier had the better bob IMO. Tyson would come out strong and swinging, but Ali would move him around and frustrate him.
Mike Tyson was a harder puncher than Joe, probably with both hands but by a long shot with the right. With that said, Ali would likely win because he was much more capable of dealing with adversity and keeping his composure.
 
D

Deleted member 763691

Guest
@Hitman really delivered on his username in this thread.
Is that sarcasm? Because "Hitman" clearly has no idea what he's talking about when he says Rafa "was on a downward spiral after AO 2014 when that back injury ended his prime"....
Rafa played better tennis at 2014 Roland Garros than he played at 2014 AO, and at 2014 Wimbledon Rafa made the 4th Round and lost to the best version of Kyrgios we've ever seen.
Plus I don't even consider 2014ao as Rafa's prime, as he played better at 2017ao :) and 2017ao is not his prime either.
 

Third Serve

Hall of Fame
Is that sarcasm? Because "Hitman" clearly has no idea what he's talking about when he says Rafa "was on a downward spiral after AO 2014 when that back injury ended his prime"....
Rafa played better tennis at 2014 Roland Garros than he played at 2014 AO, and at 2014 Wimbledon Rafa made the 4th Round and lost to the best version of Kyrgios we've ever seen.
Plus I don't even consider 2014ao as Rafa's prime, as he played better at 2017ao :) and 2017ao is not his prime either.
Prime in this context means a string of tournaments in which Nadal was playing well. It's the same for all players. Nadal played better at 2014 RG than in 2014 AO, but that was one good tournament within a mess of bad results. He was very inconsistent following the AO so it makes that tournament a good cutoff point. You can still peak in tournaments outside your prime; the point is that it happens much less often.
 

Sabrina

Semi-Pro
Without Djokovic Nadal is the favourite for 6 slams:

2011 WI
2011 UO
2012 AO
2015 RG
2018 WI
2019 AO

Without Nadal Djokovic is the favourite for 5 slams:

2010 UO
2012 RG
2013 RG
2013 UO
2014 RG
There is more chance that Djokovic would have won 2008 RG without Nadal than Nadal would have won 2015 RG without Djokovic.
 

The Blond Blur

Hall of Fame
Sure, but Rafa played Djokovic a bunch before Novak even reached his prime. I'd say it evens out.
2011 was his peak, but the dude was playing prime level tennis in 2007. He won multiple MS1000's (he beat Roddick #3, RAFA #2, and Ol' Rog #1 in a row in Montreal). He made the SF in Wimby and RG, the USO final (he lost in straights but pushed still peak Ol' Rog) and finished #3. A year later, he won a slem, the WTF and at one point almost moved into the #2 position.

In 2015-2016, RAFA almost fell out of the top 10 and was losing to everyone under the sun. I hardly call that evening out.
 

Lew II

Legend
2011 was his peak, but the dude was playing prime level tennis in 2007. He won multiple MS1000's (he beat Roddick #3, RAFA #2, and Ol' Rog #1 in a row in Montreal). He made the SF in Wimby and RG, the USO final (he lost in straights but pushed still peak Ol' Rog) and finished #3. A year later, he won a slem, the WTF and at one point almost moved into the #2 position.

In 2015-2016, RAFA almost fell out of the top 10 and was losing to everyone under the sun. I hardly call that evening out.
But they played a lot more when Nole was not peak.

7 matches in 2015-16.
24 matches in 2006-10 and 2017.

In years they both won a Slam (2008, 2011-14 and 2018-19) Djokovic leads the h2h 16-13.
 
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The Blond Blur

Hall of Fame
But they played a lot more when Nole was not peak.

7 matches in 2015-16.
23 matches in 2006-10 and 2017.
LOL, dude do you know the difference between peak and prime? A player's peak is just the absolute best of their prime. RAFA was out of his prime after the 2014 AO. Trying to compare 2007-2010 (prime but pre-peak) Joker to 2015-2016 post RAFA is beyond a joke.
 

Lew II

Legend
LOL, dude do you know the difference between peak and prime? A player's peak is just the absolute best of their prime. RAFA was out of his prime after the 2014 AO. Trying to compare 2007-2010 (prime but pre-peak) Joker to 2015-2016 post RAFA is beyond a joke.
Neither was peak.

They need to be at peak to beat each other.
 
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The Blond Blur

Hall of Fame
Neither was peak.

They need to be at peak to beat each other.
They really don't. RAFOLE is so close it usually comes down to #1 the surface and #2 their form. Joker's beaten prime RAFA on his favored surface, and RAFA has beaten prime Joker on his favored surface.
 

Lew II

Legend
They really don't. RAFOLE is so close it usually comes down to #1 the surface and #2 their form. Joker's beaten prime RAFA on his favored surface, and RAFA has beaten prime Joker on his favored surface.
Djokovic beat 20 times a top-2 ranked Nadal.
Nadal beat 9 times a top-2 ranked Djokovic.

The statement that Djokovic beat Nadal when he was not in form is simply false.
 

The Blond Blur

Hall of Fame
Djokovic beat 20 times a top-2 ranked Nadal.
Nadal beat 9 times a top-2 ranked Djokovic.

The statement that Djokovic beat Nadal when he was not in form is simply false.
Where in any of my poasts did I say that :unsure: RAFA had the lead in the H2H for most of their careers. Joker only took the lead since 2016. He racked up a bunch of wins in 2015-2016 when RAFA was at his lowest point in his career. Conversely, RAFA only got to play Joker at his lowest point 2 times (2017-mid 2018).

I even said in my previous reply to you that they've both beaten each other when they were in form. It's just that Joker got a lot more wins against an out of form RAFA than the other way around.
 
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