Djokovic, not Roger Federer, was Rafael Nadal's toughest rival - Toni
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King No1e
G.O.A.T.
Me and Octo/Michael agree one one thing: some pretentious Fed devotees are annoyingLOL at a Novak fan running around defending Nadal's H2H with Federer, even when everyone knows that the mentioned 16th "win" is not recognised by anyone of importance, because, ahem, it didn't happen.
GabeT
G.O.A.T.
True Fanerer
G.O.A.T.
23-16 is just a joke even though that should be the count now.
Phoenix1983
G.O.A.T.
In other news, it has been confirmed that the Pope is indeed of the Catholic faith, and that bears may well defecate in wooded areas.
RaulRamirez
Legend
I also read that they slowed down the woods to mess with the bears who are Fedfans.
HetTheGreaterer
Banned
Ned ran away from fed so no match tooo place
King No1e
G.O.A.T.
Well Nadal should be 30-16 then since Fed ran away from him for half of 2016.
"Running away" sure is an odd way to say injured, though.
HetTheGreaterer
Banned
Fed did show up in 2013 IW QF despite being injured
King No1e
G.O.A.T.
He wasn't so badly injured that he couldn't play. We all know how fragile Nadal's nico nico knees are at age 32.
Towny
Hall of Fame
I have no issue with what Toni said. Novak has undoubtedly been the more difficult opponent for Nadal
tennisaddict
Bionic Poster
Because the players of this era are Raonic, Nishikori, Wawrinka, Murray and Dmitrov.
tennisaddict
Bionic Poster
You miss the essence of the matter while trying to do your calculation gymnastics: the rivalry has been very close despite of it being for a very small number of matches in Federer's peak, and huge number in Djokovic's peak and beyond.
It is even more bizarre then, that you engage in the said gymnastics, generously "agreeing" to cut the bulk of the said matches in Federer's peak 2/3rds to be precise, where the advantage of Federer was overwhelming, in order to showcase the closeness (because in reality Novak failed to show such domination in his peak, where the overall advantage for him was 16-9).
Here is the post that breaks it down in periods:
https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/feds-record-in-finals.641009/page-2#post-13259776
@GabeT thinks actually it is to Djokovic's credit that the rivalry is close - even with the calculation gymnastics.
He is not seeing the irony that DJokovic took until Fed reached age 35 to overcome the negative h2h when in fact he should have been so much higher in the h2h given most of their matches took place after Fed turned 29.
'H2h has been closer' actually means Djokovic under performed with respect to his ATG status.
Subway Tennis
G.O.A.T.
Agree. It seems like a pretty accurate assessment imo. He is certainly complimentary to Federer as well, acknowledging the recent success Federer has had against Rafa.
Not sure how he could have been fairer.
GabeT
G.O.A.T.
At age 31 Nole has won 3 slams in a row and is world number 1. I thought the “after 29 players can’t win anything” argument was long dead and gone.
In any case I have never given much value to the H2H, even as a Nole fan. I’ve only pointed out that the Nole-Fed rivalry has been very close since almost the beginning.
oldmanfan
Legend
Some (not all) of you Nadalovic fans should not be gloating so much, but should instead be thankful that Fedr played against them with 2 huge handicaps: 1) being 5yrs+ older and 2) playing in less favorable conditions of slower courts/conditions and minimal grass for the last ~15+ years.
Here are the title counts of Fedr vs. Nadalovic COMBINED when played on conditions that favor Fedr, even when he gave a 5yrs+ handicap:
total titles won, Dubai/Cinci/(Queens/Halle)/WB:
Fedr: 32 (8xDubai/7xCinci/9x(Halle/Queens)/8xWB)
Nadalovic 'combined': 14 (5xDubai/2xCinci/1x(Queens/Halle)/6xWB)
That's more than twice the amount won by Nadalovic combined, effectively being about 4X vs. each rival!
Imaging a different tour, where instead of the current tour's majority being slow-courts(+clay) and barely any grass, but is instead comprised mostly of faster courts like Dubai/Cinci and grass. Now add some sprinkles in and make Fedr 5yrs+ younger than Nadalovic. How do you think the stats/titles between them would look like then? Yes, absolute domination from Fedr. And a horribly boring tour. As a Fedfan, I would be happy then. But, I wouldn't gloat about it bc the conditions year-round (younger age + court speeds/conditions) would favor Fedr too much, like they have been for Nadalovic for over a ~15yrs+ now.
OT: agree with Toni. Water is wet.
Here are the title counts of Fedr vs. Nadalovic COMBINED when played on conditions that favor Fedr, even when he gave a 5yrs+ handicap:
total titles won, Dubai/Cinci/(Queens/Halle)/WB:
Fedr: 32 (8xDubai/7xCinci/9x(Halle/Queens)/8xWB)
Nadalovic 'combined': 14 (5xDubai/2xCinci/1x(Queens/Halle)/6xWB)
That's more than twice the amount won by Nadalovic combined, effectively being about 4X vs. each rival!
Imaging a different tour, where instead of the current tour's majority being slow-courts(+clay) and barely any grass, but is instead comprised mostly of faster courts like Dubai/Cinci and grass. Now add some sprinkles in and make Fedr 5yrs+ younger than Nadalovic. How do you think the stats/titles between them would look like then? Yes, absolute domination from Fedr. And a horribly boring tour. As a Fedfan, I would be happy then. But, I wouldn't gloat about it bc the conditions year-round (younger age + court speeds/conditions) would favor Fedr too much, like they have been for Nadalovic for over a ~15yrs+ now.
OT: agree with Toni. Water is wet.
augustobt
Legend
He lost the first match and could barely walk on court. You would remember if you weren't 12.
tennisaddict
Bionic Poster
Again, The h2h being close with a player 6 year older and with most matches occuring with the senior player aged 29+ is a blot on the younger one.
GabeT
G.O.A.T.
Players train for the conditions they face. It makes no sense to talk of alternative realities (imagine all fast courts) and assume players would not change their training.
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GabeT
G.O.A.T.
I’m sure it looks that way for you. Like I said many times, I don’t care about h2H, always found it a silly and mostly useless metric. Even if Nole is ahead.
tennisaddict
Bionic Poster
Nole is not 'ahead' truly. That is the point.
GabeT
G.O.A.T.
Well, he is “ahead”. Truly. Those are the facts. But h2H is not a useful metric since players have no control when they meet the other guy.
helterskelter
G.O.A.T.
Gabe is being pretty generous bearing in mind Djokovic has led 19-9 since Federer turned 29 and that 29 is not old. (You believe it is but you are wrong).
helterskelter
G.O.A.T.
38-0.
tennisaddict
Bionic Poster
Count of majors won by players over 29 <<<<<<< Count of majors won by players 29 and under.
Big 3 are winning majors post 30 only because of the weak era we are in . Your theory that age band of major winners has shifted will have zero meaning once big 3 retire. You can already see all players except big 3 are retiring at 33-35. Federer is the exception not the rule
Lew II
G.O.A.T.
Top players of 2014 -18 objectively had better results than top players of 2003-07
Here's an example: https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/goat-points-by-year.634341/
tennisaddict
Bionic Poster
The Murray who lost 0 and 1 to a 35 year Fed... LOL
GabeT
G.O.A.T.
Lew II
G.O.A.T.
Why "35 years old Federer" shouldn't be good? That's what you have to prove.
Look at the editing of my post above.
tennisaddict
Bionic Poster
The burden of proof is on you because Federer is the exception. Show me another 35-37 year old that won 3 majors and several masters in the last 4 decades. We can't . Hence we know this is a weak era that lets 37 year olds even reach No 1.
GabeT
G.O.A.T.
That’s a strange definition of a weak era. Any time a once in a lifetime player shows up, continuing to excel at an age many others have retired, that means it’s a weak era?
Lew II
G.O.A.T.
Show me an era when the youngest slam winner or multi-finalist was 30 years old.
Lew II
G.O.A.T.
@tennisaddict
Anyway Djokovic played Federer only 2 times after AO 2016.
2017-19 is not very relevant for the discussion.
Anyway Djokovic played Federer only 2 times after AO 2016.
2017-19 is not very relevant for the discussion.
HetTheGreaterer
Banned
Ombellibable, no!!??
Noletheking
Hall of Fame
I'm not talking about this particular quote ,I'm talking in general.
It's 25-16 and 26-22. The "official" records in this case are worthless because if you forfeit a match and no one takes your spot in the draw, you lose.
Tennis_Hands
Banned
Tennis_Hands
Banned
You "forfeit", you don't lose, because noone has beaten you. Similarly the other guy doesn't "win", because, in fact he has to do something to be considered a win on his part.
Tennis_Hands
Banned
One in a lifetime is OK, two, acceptable, but already very suspicious, three: it stinks.
The fact that right now the only players that are inconsistently challenging the big 3 for higher spots are 10 plus years younger is telling the whole story. We live in an inflation era since around 2014.
Lew II
G.O.A.T.
ATGs born between 1972 and 1985 other than Federer?Who is the ATG (plural) on his tails at that age?
True Fanerer
G.O.A.T.
Agassi and PETE were still sucking on bottles and wearing diapers in 1972.
Bender
G.O.A.T.
just king ned being magnanimous, since the real magnanimous goat mury was not playing in those years. Once mury goat comes back, the ned will no longer need to cover for the one true goatNadal was lucky to meet Novak Finlandovic on clay in 2017 and 2018, or he would have had 14 straight losses to Fedovic at this point
14
Tennis_Hands
Banned
"Other than Federer"?
So, where is the ATG of such caliber behind Djokovic and Nadal, who is 5/6 years their junior?
Do you have an answer to that?
Lew II
G.O.A.T.
No ATG was born after 1987, but three were in 1986-87."Other than Federer"?
So, where is the ATG of such caliber behind Djokovic and Nadal, who is 5/6 years their junior?
Do you have an answer to that?
Now answer my question, please.
Tennis_Hands
Banned
Apart from the little mistake (two, not three), your answer puts in perspective the current situation.
Sampras 1971
Federer 1981
Nadal 1986
Lew II
G.O.A.T.
Murray is an ATG because he was coetaneous of two GOAT contenders. So it's three ATGs to me.Apart from the little mistake (two, not three), your answer puts in perspective the current situation.
Sampras 1971
Federer 1981
Nadal 1986
So none other than Fed from september 1971 to may 1986.
Tennis_Hands
Banned
Exactly.
Does repeatedly taking out facts make you feel better or is it just for the shtick around here?
tennisaddict
Bionic Poster
You are arguing on my behalf now .
That is only because it is a weak era now .
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