Djokovic reportedly opts out of Paris Masters, doubtful for ATP Finals

fedfan24 said:
The only time Federer turned back the clock post racket change would be likes of Shanghai 14, Cincy 15, IW 17…. Tournaments he comfortably won going through Djokovic or Nadal.

No prime version of Nadal or Federer loses to a Wawrinka calibre player on clay. He’s a step below Kuerten, Soderling and so on. Djokovic simply isn’t as good as the other two at their best, regardless of how many 250 level slams he’s won in recent years.
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I think it is a bit unkind to at this stage when a player is active who holds the slam record to scrutinise that resume compared to his two GOAT rivals who have retired. Your points are entirely valid which a certain fanbase is well aware of as can be seen by their frustrations on social media, but i firmly believe for now people should just enjoy the one remaining legend that is left in his twilight year (he wont play beyond 2025 i dont think, hope i am wrong ) and show him a lot of appreciation. He, like Murray and wawrinka and Del Potro and Ferrer was part of that Fedal era, and post Fedal and post Murray and Wawrinka (at anything close to their prime levels) took care of business and won slams at an astonishing rate prior to the Sinceraz era. Lendl did similar in the 1980's post Mcenroe and Connors and pre Becker/Edberg eras and is now a part of the fabric of the alumni of tennis and much respected, but he didnt get the send off he deserved so i think it is important the same mistake isnt repeated next year or the following year depending how long he goes on for.
 
fedfan24 said:
You’re right. Federer is better at both Wimbledon/USO and that’s without the benefit of inflating his stats in his 30s. 3 AO, 2 W, 2 RG, 1 USO inflated since 2020 and he still trails at the 2 biggest slams.
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USO v FO is a toss up as to which is bigger tbh .
There is no doubt that fans still judge players at slam level at FO W USO as we saw this year as Alcaraz definitely got more coverage than Sinner did over the year (in terms of on the court that is!) when ATG comaprisons are made and that is fair enough as most of the ATGs of last 50 years didnt place as much emphasis on the AO so while for me having been to the AO and other slams and of the belief the AO is the best slam to go to as a fan i do think those old views still hold sway.
 
messiahrobins said:
I think it is a bit unkind to at this stage when a player is active who holds the slam record to scrutinise that resume compared to his two GOAT rivals who have retired. Your points are entirely valid which a certain fanbase is well aware of as can be seen by their frustrations on social media, but i firmly believe for now people should just enjoy the one remaining legend that is left in his twilight year (he wont play beyond 2025 i dont think, hope i am wrong ) and show him a lot of appreciation. He, like Murray and wawrinka and Del Potro and Ferrer was part of that Fedal era, and post Fedal and post Murray and Wawrinka (at anything close to their prime levels) took care of business and won slams at an astonishing rate prior to the Sinceraz era. Lendl did similar in the 1980's post Mcenroe and Connors and pre Becker/Edberg eras and is now a part of the fabric of the alumni of tennis and much respected, but he didnt get the send off he deserved so i think it is important the same mistake isnt repeated next year or the following year depending how long he goes on for.
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fair enough bud I will ease off it a bit. Djokovic is no doubt a living legend and it’s fun seeing him still battling sinneraz, finally a nextgen worthy of succeeding the big 3. A lot is tongue in cheek exaggerate in response to some of the more rabid fanboys I read on here and YouTube, social media etc
 
inflation_era said:
No. If Nadal were to add 5 more RG to his haul and Djokovic none, I would still say Djokovic > Nadal overall on all surfaces.

Therefore, Federer is GOAT. End of debate.
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No, the End game has already taken place: 24 > 22 > 20.

So this message is the end of the end debate of the end debate's very end of the whoe goat's end debate = this is the mother of end debates, which has ended once and for all, the end.....

Therefore the curtains have closed, race is over, and we all sing along:

 
Bastion said:
Jealous bunch, look at the scoreboard, that is em facts.
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Doesnt work like that though if it did Wladimir Klitscho would be greatest heavyweight ever. Most have Maradona greater than Messi for example and Eusebio greater than CR7 Ronaldo. Just the way of the world
 
messiahrobins said:
Doesnt work like that though if it did Wladimir Klitscho would be greatest heavyweight ever. Most have Maradona greater than Messi for example and Eusebio greater than CR7 Ronaldo. Just the way of the world
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Maradona had something which appeals a lot to older generation
 
messiahrobins said:
I think it is a bit unkind to at this stage when a player is active who holds the slam record to scrutinise that resume compared to his two GOAT rivals who have retired. Your points are entirely valid which a certain fanbase is well aware of as can be seen by their frustrations on social media, but i firmly believe for now people should just enjoy the one remaining legend that is left in his twilight year (he wont play beyond 2025 i dont think, hope i am wrong ) and show him a lot of appreciation. He, like Murray and wawrinka and Del Potro and Ferrer was part of that Fedal era, and post Fedal and post Murray and Wawrinka (at anything close to their prime levels) took care of business and won slams at an astonishing rate prior to the Sinceraz era. Lendl did similar in the 1980's post Mcenroe and Connors and pre Becker/Edberg eras and is now a part of the fabric of the alumni of tennis and much respected, but he didnt get the send off he deserved so i think it is important the same mistake isnt repeated next year or the following year depending how long he goes on for.
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Only one of the big three has retired! Nadal still has one event left first! But by the end of November, I will take your point - we should put an expiry date on big three discussions for then.
 
gamelovergold said:
And what about 20 WB or 20 USO or 20 AO . Your asking only for FO hints something.
4 CYGS equals 16 slams but for the unique acheivement lets add 1 bonus slam for acheiving CYGS. That makes 4 CYGS= 2O SLAMS. But you are forgetting to win 20 F0 you need to play 20 years of peak tennis .(in clay)
4 CYGS can be acheived in 4 years.
20 FO means 20×7=140 match
4CYGS means 16×7= 112 match.
28 match gap will not help your CYGS case.
Click to expand...

I would say 4CYGS > any single slam 20 times.
 
Bastion said:
No, the End game has already taken place: 24 > 22 > 20.

So this message is the end of the end debate of the end debate's very end of the whoe goat's end debate = this is the mother of end debates, which has ended once and for all, the end.....

Therefore the curtains have closed, race is over, and we all sing along:

Click to expand...

No, being the leader at 2 / 4 slams is > 1 / 4 slams. Ergo, Fed is the GOAT.
 
helterskelter said:
Only one of the big three has retired! Nadal still has one event left first! But by the end of November, I will take your point - we should put an expiry date on big three discussions for then.
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I dont understand Nadal's position. Its a competitive event of huge importance, a davis Cup final. He isnt anywhere near good enough now to play in such a big event and surely he wont be actually picked to play?
 
Hitman said:
Federer won AO, IW and Miami, don't feed me that nonsense he wasn't physically fine to continue playing. He avoided Nadal and kept his mental edge over him. You think Federer goes undefeated against Nadal in 2017 if he played Nadal on clay, the way he did in 2019 when they played in RG? LOL Cut the double standards, it would be one thing if Federer couldn't move at the start of 2017 season, dude wins FOUR five set matches and then the sunshine double and you are crying about a knee surgery that was impeding his play.....the delusion and the lengths people go to to defend their idol. Federer then got Nadal back on HC in Shanghai, no mental demons, proceeds to straight set him again....but yeah, Federer didn't wise up and pick and chose when to play and when to avoid. Get real. ;)
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You have a point but I don't think the decision was mainly Nadal related.
 
Bastion said:
No, the End game has already taken place: 24 > 22 > 20.

So this message is the end of the end debate of the end debate's very end of the whoe goat's end debate = this is the mother of end debates, which has ended once and for all, the end.....

Therefore the curtains have closed, race is over, and we all sing along:

Click to expand...
Race ended after 2020 AO bud (Federer’s last serious tournament as a professional). Any slams won after are worth about 0.1 of a full slam during inflation era.
 
inflation_era said:
I would say 4CYGS > any single slam 20 times.
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I think you are rating CYGS more than they are. Simple person with 4 CYGS means for 4 years he was absolute dominant.
Think 20 slams on one surface . Person has to be match fit for 20 years.
Still if your choice remains 4 CYGS then i have no problem. If you permit lets make it poll thread and let members decide . But only if you agree otherwise no need
 
Djokovic plans to not qualify for ATP finals and thus don't have to skip Turin. But the way Rublev, Rudd and co is playing he may still qualify
 
gamelovergold said:
I think you are rating CYGS more than they are. Simple person with 4 CYGS means for 4 years he was absolute dominant.
Think 20 slams on one surface . Person has to be match fit for 20 years.
Still if your choice remains 4 CYGS then i have no problem. If you permit lets make it poll thread and let members decide . But only if you agree otherwise no need
Click to expand...

CYGS is 4 slams in the same year. If you do it 4 times, that's 16 slams in a row across all surfaces. Much better than a one-dimensional surface dominant player.
 
nolefam_2024 said:
Says what
Are you deliberately playing stupid?

He has 3900 pts.

In 2010 the number 8 had 3400 pts, winning 200 from ATP finals so only 3200
en.wikipedia.org

2010 ATP World Tour - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

This shows NOTHING about playing field. It probably shows IGNORANCE of members if they think 3900 is not good enough.
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I am pointing to the fact that novak is not trying for turin but still has chances and others are trying hard enough but not entering top 8.
 
gamelovergold said:
I am pointing to the fact that novak is not trying for turin but still has chances and others are trying hard enough but not entering top 8.
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No you are pointing out to the fact that tour is not ready.

No year anyone is having 3900 pts before atp finals and still dqed from atp finals.

This is like saying Nadal in 2012 did not even try to qualify but tour failed.
You, yes YOU are at fault for not realizing that 3900 is pretty big number for top 8. It was your job to know how rankings are.

The top of the rankings are exponentially hard.
 
gamelovergold said:
Checked the live rating. Novak is at 6 th position. Dont think 3 guys will overtake him . So what you say should novak play turin final or drop it.
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I think he should skip for sure. Because he has knee and shoulder problems. Rest and let it heal.

He can easily make to turin next year as well.
 
fedfan24 said:
Race ended after 2020 AO bud (Federer’s last serious tournament as a professional). Any slams won after are worth about 0.1 of a full slam during inflation era.
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Now that you mention it, race ended when Laver retired, end of debate.
 
messiahrobins said:
Doesnt work like that though if it did Wladimir Klitscho would be greatest heavyweight ever. Most have Maradona greater than Messi for example and Eusebio greater than CR7 Ronaldo. Just the way of the world
Click to expand...
Yes, we have a lot of wackos since always that cannot count and make up numbers as they go. Reality is different.
 
inflation_era said:
No, leading at 2/4 slams is key, ergo Fed is GOAT.
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Looks even worse when you go prime for prime
03-12 Federer:
4 AO
1 RG
7 W
5 USO

17 slams

08-16 Djokovic
6 AO
1 RG
3 W
2 USO

Less dominant at his best slam. 3 + 2 at the premier big boy slams vs 7 + 5. Fewer HC slams. Djokovic really did make the most of the graveyard/inflation/tiktok era didn’t he?
 
fedfan24 said:
Looks even worse when you go prime for prime
03-12 Federer:
4 AO
1 RG
7 W
5 USO

17 slams

08-16 Djokovic
6 AO
1 RG
3 W
2 USO

Less dominant at his best slam. 3 + 2 at the premier big boy slams vs 7 + 5. Fewer HC slams. Djokovic really did make the most of the graveyard/inflation/tiktok era didn’t he?
Click to expand...
picking-cherries.jpg
 
Only on this board does anyone debate this topic. The general media, all of the non fanatical tennis world, and sane people generally who know how to count (when that was what mattered and it surely appeared so when Fed was the GS leader), all regard Djokovic as the GOAT. It's funny to read the minority here who continue to argue it. Almost sad really. It's an echo chamber like no other. I have great respect and admiration for Federer and Nadal. At the end of the day, they got passed by someone a hair better. They all made each other better for almost two decades. We were all entertained and Djokovic ended up in front. What is the big deal with that? It's sport and we all have passions, but the only thing that matters (as Nadal has himself said) is the hard count. Feelings are nice and if a player made you feel great, that's wonderful and completely understandable but facts are facts.
 
Realfan said:
Only on this board does anyone debate this topic. The general media, all of the non fanatical tennis world, and sane people generally who know how to count (when that was what mattered and it surely appeared so when Fed was the GS leader), all regard Djokovic as the GOAT. It's funny to read the minority here who continue to argue it. Almost sad really. It's an echo chamber like no other. I have great respect and admiration for Federer and Nadal. At the end of the day, they got passed by someone a hair better. They all made each other better for almost two decades. We were all entertained and Djokovic ended up in front. What is the big deal with that? It's sport and we all have passions, but the only thing that matters (as Nadal has himself said) is the hard count. Feelings are nice and if a player made you feel great, that's wonderful and completely understandable but facts are facts.
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Facts matter feelings matter but not over facts
 
@Realfan

The echo chamber crowd is very invested in their alternate world. It is almost impossible to turn back now.

You know why?
If they are wrong on Djokovic, which anyone with above room temperature IQ can now see they are, then they can be wrong about many other things.

For example
1. Eye test - incredibly stupid argument to add subjective bias and thinking highest aggression means highest level
2. Peak play BS - Saying a player is at peak for certain time even when proven wrong
3. God like status give to some under achievers , over overhyped players like Nalbandian
4. Status of current players who we are told are so weak, even a player as dominant as Sinner.

I am Nolefam and because our guy won it all, I am not going to try to take away credit from new gen.
Many sane fedal fans do not do that as well. But some sore lo.. miscreants will not have any other way to prove fedal supremacy than undermining everything post fedal decline.

I will call it MAGA syndrome. I will accept the result of election, if it was fair. It has to be fair.
Its same mentality. We just need to call them out right there and then.
 
fedfan24 said:
No cherry picking needed. Djokovic still trails by 1 at both of the premier slams and trailed by 4 and 3 prime to prime. He simply wasn’t as good as Federer at their best.
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Premier Slams, prime to prime, etc. They're are all cope terms. The only thing that matters are the final numbers.
 
nolefam_2024 said:
@Realfan

The echo chamber crowd is very invested in their alternate world. It is almost impossible to turn back now.
Click to expand...

For some of the social media ‘fans‘ it also has developed into a business model. Outrage and hate create clicks and attention.

One should also conserve a bit of childish wonder when walking through live - and when playing and watching tennis!

P.S: People trying to elevate Nalbandian into world beaters don‘t seem to understand basic elements of the game. A very high risk/high reward brand of tennis can achieve a very rare outcome like beating the Big3 in a row in the short format but won‘t work with any regularity in best of five…
 
fedfan24 said:
Race ended after 2020 AO bud (Federer’s last serious tournament as a professional). Any slams won after are worth about 0.1 of a full slam during inflation era.
Click to expand...
I've got an interesting one for you:
Fed won 12 before Nole's first slam;
Djo won 12 after Rog's last slam;
What happened in between, You could call the Race: Nole 12 - Fed 8.
 
BlueB said:
I've got an interesting one for you:
Fed won 12 before Nole's first slam;
Djo won 12 after Rog's last slam;
What happened in between, You could call the Race: Nole 12 - Fed 8.
Click to expand...
Don't indulge the members. They think this is debating session and whoever can debate for longest will win.

It's obviously not.
 
BlueB said:
I've got an interesting one for you:
Fed won 12 before Nole's first slam;
Djo won 12 after Rog's last slam;
What happened in between, You could call the Race: Nole 12 - Fed 8.
Click to expand...
Also, using the same metric:
Fed 16 - Nadal 16
Nole 20 - Nadal 19
 
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