djokovic return of serve footwork

[taurussable]

his right foot has a slight step forward before his split step on opponent's contact. He does this almost on every return on the deuce side.

This is unlike Federer or Murray's stride forward before split step to create forward momentum, and I don't think it is creating any forward momentum for Djokovic himself.

any idea what's the purpose of the small step on the right foot? from a learning or coaching perspective do you advise students to have that?

 

[Nostradamus]

it is flawed

 

[taurussable]

it is flawed

can you elaborate? isn't his return best of the world?

 

[Coolio]

any idea what's the purpose of the small step on the right foot?

It ain't no thang!

 

[taurussable]

It ain't no thang!

i don't know. On the ad side he takes a small split step before the true split step.

on second serve he seems to take a moderate stride sometimes.


oh well..

 

[SouthboundAgain]

I don't think it's very relevant: it doesn't make or break his return of serve. If he didn't do it, he would probably return just as well.

 

[LeeD]

Overanalysis here.
Important thing is, DJ moves his body forewards whenever he can on ROS.
Important thing is, YOU and I should also.

 

[Nostradamus]

can you elaborate? isn't his return best of the world?

Timing of his split step is all wrong. it is too late. he should time the split step to just before server strikes the ball

 

[oble]

The slight step with the right foot is to help with timing his split step to the server's rhythm.

Variation on ad side is probably for a more aggressive return using hop then split step to be more explosive.

 

[Topspin Shot]

The timing looks good to me. Top of the hop when Federer contacts the ball.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

The timing looks good to me. Top of the hop when Federer contacts the ball.

Agreed. Timing looks fine.

I prefer Murray's return footwork. He does not assume the ultra-wide stance that Djokovic does -- many of us are not flexible enough to assume Novak's uber-wide ready stance. Andy takes a fairly large step forward as the server tosses the ball. This help to sync up to the rhythm of the server. His split step occurs on the upward swing of the server's racket, just prior to contact.

Andy's first step is often, if not always, taken with the inside foot (the foot closest to the center hash mark). He often moves a bit toward the inside as well with that step.

 

[Nostradamus]

The timing looks good to me. Top of the hop when Federer contacts the ball.

no, timing is late. he should split step little sooner. so he can jump into action and get a faster start on the return. he could be a better returner of serve if he did that

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

no, timing is late. he should split step little sooner. so he can jump into action and get a faster start on the return. he could be a better returner of serve if he did that

You're pushing (sic) my leg, right? Novak is already one of the top returners of the past 2 decades -- pretty much on par with Agassi and Murray in this respect. And possibly better than Ferrer, Hewitt, Federer, Nalbandian and Davydenko.

Novak usually starts his split step hop just prior to contact so that he is close to the top of the hop as the server makes contact -- or as the ball leaves the server's racket. He might be a touch late on some returns but not too late. Many elite returners are a shade later than other high-level returners. Returners who prefer to split a scosh on the late side often do not hop very high. Or they will land primarily on one foot rather than equally on both feet. For them, this might be optimal for a quick start to the ball. Take a close look at this. You can pause the action and move the slider manually to take a close look at Novak's timing.

http://www.dartfish.tv/webPresenter/Player.aspx?CR=p611c91651m2112026

 

[julian]

Feet are cut off from the video in an ipad

You're pushing (sic) my leg, right? Novak is already one of the top returners of the past 2 decades -- pretty much on par with Agassi and Murray in this respect. And possibly better than Ferrer, Hewitt, Federer, Nalbandian and Davydenko.

Novak usually starts his split step hop just prior to contact so that he is close to the top of the hop as the server makes contact -- or as the ball leaves the server's racket. He might be a touch late on some returns but not too late. Many elite returners are a shade later than other high-level returners. Returners who prefer to split a scosh on the late side often do not hop very high. Or they will land primarily on one foot rather than equally on both feet. For them, this might be optimal for a quick start to the ball. Take a close look at this. You can pause the action and move the slider manually to take a close look at Novak's timing.

http://www.dartfish.tv/webPresenter/Player.aspx?CR=p611c91651m2112026

How do you remove stills to see an upper video and feet?

 

[WildVolley]

You're pushing (sic) my leg, right? Novak is already one of the top returners of the past 2 decades -- pretty much on par with Agassi and Murray in this respect. And possibly better than Ferrer, Hewitt, Federer, Nalbandian and Davydenko.

Fedace is a troll. Best to just ignore him on serious topics.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

So Nostradamus = Fedace! Thnx for the insight.

How do you remove stills to see an upper video and feet?

Yeah, that bugged me for a while as well. There is a down arrow in the middle of the control bar at the bottom of the video portion of the window. It's right above the Download icon.

 

[taurussable]

Agreed. Timing looks fine.

I prefer Murray's return footwork. He does not assume the ultra-wide stance that Djokovic does -- many of us are not flexible enough to assume Novak's uber-wide ready stance. Andy takes a fairly large step forward as the server tosses the ball. This help to sync up to the rhythm of the server. His split step occurs on the upward swing of the server's racket, just prior to contact.

Andy's first step is often, if not always, taken with the inside foot (the foot closest to the center hash mark). He often moves a bit toward the inside as well with that step.

Thanks for the observations regarding Murray return, double checked and you are absolutely right. His return is footwork is so different from djokovic's. His split is basically done on as single leg(his inside leg) after he takes a big step forward with the inside leg.

 

[taurussable]

Agreed. Timing looks fine.

I prefer Murray's return footwork. He does not assume the ultra-wide stance that Djokovic does -- many of us are not flexible enough to assume Novak's uber-wide ready stance. Andy takes a fairly large step forward as the server tosses the ball. This help to sync up to the rhythm of the server. His split step occurs on the upward swing of the server's racket, just prior to contact.

Andy's first step is often, if not always, taken with the inside foot (the foot closest to the center hash mark). He often moves a bit toward the inside as well with that step.

Murray's split step in service return seems a bit higher compared with other returners. This caused him a bit late in moving his body to the direction of the serve. I am not sure if this is one reason he returns less aggressively than Djokovic.

any thoughts?

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

Murray's split step in service return seems a bit higher compared with other returners. This caused him a bit late in moving his body to the direction of the serve. I am not sure if this is one reason he returns less aggressively than Djokovic.

OTOH, Djokovic's stance is much wider than most and his split step hop seems rather low compared to other elite returners. Steve Flink and others put Novak slightly ahead of Andy as a returner. However, quite a few experts put Andy a bit above Novak as a returner. Murray appears to do slightly better against 1st serves than Djoko. OTOH, Novak does better on 2nd serves and break points than Andy.

With his higher ss hop, Murray probably initiates it a split-second sooner than Djoko with his lower ss hop. The timing diff would probably be measured in deciseconds or centiseconds.

 

[Maximagq]

I find this talk about return stances interesting. People have said that my return stance looks like Djokovic's. Is this true?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t90qW1nGzZ8

 

[oble]

I find this talk about return stances interesting. People have said that my return stance looks like Djokovic's. Is this true?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t90qW1nGzZ8

Legs and torso position, kind of. Hand position and steps, not really.

You grunt like Djokovic though.

 

[Dedans Penthouse]

I find this talk about return stances interesting.

People have said that my return stance looks like Djokovic's. Is this true?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t90qW1nGzZ8

Oh but enough about ME, let's talk about you......what do you think of my tennis outfit?

__________________

 

[Maximagq]

Oh but enough about ME, let's talk about you......what do you think of my tennis outfit?

__________________

That dress looks quite flattering on you

 

[taurussable]

I find this talk about return stances interesting. People have said that my return stance looks like Djokovic's. Is this true?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t90qW1nGzZ8

Hi Matt, looks like you are splitting backwards instead forward?

If that's the case you are like Federer who sometimes split backward

 

[taurussable]

here is what i meant by you are splitting backward, was that intentional?

 

[LeeD]

Agaist good players, you never want to tip your hand.
Matt lined up forwards, aggressive position, to get into the head of the server and try to force a harder and wilder serve than normal.
He split back to give himself time to take a long backswing and really hit the return.

 

[President]

Geez Matt, you hit really well in that video. How much coaching have you had over the years, if you don't mind me asking?

 

[Maximagq]

Geez Matt, you hit really well in that video. How much coaching have you had over the years, if you don't mind me asking?

I started when I was 9 and started getting coaching when I was about 10, so I would say 8 years? That match against Di Giulio was probably the best I ever played but I lost because he is simply at a different level to me It is a great experience hitting with DI guys.

 

[Maximagq]

here is what i meant by you are splitting backward, was that intentional?

I don't think that was intentional, probably just a subconscious reaction. I should really have been split stepping into the court though.

 

[LeeD]

And all this time, I thought you were smarter than the average bear.

 

[Maximagq]

And all this time, I thought you were smarter than the average bear.

I don't understand this statement LeeD?

 

[LeeD]

I thought your prep position forwards, then a split step backwards, was a mental game to put pressure on your opponent's serve, so he'd press harder to hit harder and place it better, while you moved back to give yourself room for a fully swing and more time to do it.
Guess I was wrong.

 

[Maximagq]

I thought your prep position forwards, then a split step backwards, was a mental game to put pressure on your opponent's serve, so he'd press harder to hit harder and place it better, while you moved back to give yourself room for a fully swing and more time to do it.
Guess I was wrong.

I try to play on instinct. I generally try to avoid thinking too much on the tennis court. Just hit the ball and make certain plays.

 

[LeeD]

Clean mind, clean hitting.
Clutter mind, always bad hitting and mishits.

 

[Maximagq]

Clean mind, clean hitting.
Clutter mind, always bad hitting and mishits.

Yeah, this is why I think when posters on here talk about things like ulnar deviation, ISR, etc., players don't really think about that in a real match. They also don't care if their shoes are blue instead of red, their racket is 11.95 oz instead of 11.93 oz, their tension is 52 lb instead of 52.2324 lb, etc. Just Keep It Simple, Stupid!

 

[LeeD]

I gots no thoughts to dispute your words of wisdom.
If you gotta think about something, it's gonna jump out and bite ya....

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

Yeah, this is why I think when posters on here talk about things like ulnar deviation, ISR, etc., players don't really think about that in a real match... Just Keep It Simple, Stupid!

Those details are something that some players might find useful when learning a stroke or analyzing flaws, not something to dwell on in a real match for sure. Some will find the details useful in learning or practice while some will not. But yes, we do not need this type of clutter when actually playing.

 

[taurussable]

Those details are something that some players might find useful when learning a stroke or analyzing flaws, not something to dwell on in a real match for sure. Some will find the details useful in learning or practice while some will not. But yes, we do not need this type of clutter when actually playing.

fully agree, look at the serve video coolio posted. it might be the highest level of rec player serve but he clearly didn't get the racket forearm angle issue Chas pointed out. All pro serves on the other hand have a much bigger racket forearm angle.

 

[LeeD]

Some players had little forearm to racket angle, like McEnroe.
Some players had a lot of forearm to racket angle, like Jimmy Connors.
Both are lefty, both had what was considered "weak" serves at their levels.
The more angle, the more POTENTIAL power, balance by more chances of errors and things going wrong.
The less angle, the less power, but balanced by more consistency.

 

[taurussable]

Agreed. Timing looks fine.

I prefer Murray's return footwork. He does not assume the ultra-wide stance that Djokovic does -- many of us are not flexible enough to assume Novak's uber-wide ready stance. Andy takes a fairly large step forward as the server tosses the ball. This help to sync up to the rhythm of the server. His split step occurs on the upward swing of the server's racket, just prior to contact.

Andy's first step is often, if not always, taken with the inside foot (the foot closest to the center hash mark). He often moves a bit toward the inside as well with that step.

Thank you Thank you SA for this post, I tried tinker with both djokovic and Murray return of serve footwork in a practice match. Found the Murray footwork to be much better fit for me. it is lot easier to split on one leg. The improvement in return hard serves is immediate.