Djokovic : "Roger is arguably the GOAT"

octogon

Hall of Fame
There is a difference between overall GOAT and surface specific GOAT. Nole or Roger will take the overall title.
The guy with the most slams will take that title of overall GOAT....right now, I'm leaning towards Nadal being that guy.

Federer is almost out of the equation. He's technically GOAT now because 20>19>17, but as soon as Rafa ties him, things like the dominating H2H of Rafa in Grand Slams will put Roger into second of his era.

The GOAT race is realistically between Novak and Rafa. Roger's ceiling right now looks to be 2nd best of his era, if somehow Novak just stops winning slams. Coronavirus might have been the best thing to happen for Roger's legacy, because it took probably another slam off table for Novak in Wimbledon.
 

octogon

Hall of Fame
Does "very similar with Rafa" mean that Nadal is arguably the GOAT as well?
He inferred that. If you watch his instagram live with Murray, it's pretty clear Novak thinks Roger, Rafa and himself all have a fair claim to being GOAT. Novak probably feels he's the GOAT himself, but wants the slam record to leave no doubt.
 

octogon

Hall of Fame
There is factually incorrect. There is no such guideline that this would be the case.
Yeah, I think you've probably missed the last 15 years or whatever of the "GOAT debate" in the tennis world. It's been about Slam count since Sampras. I didn't make that a thing...it is what it is.

I know Federer fans in particular would no longer like it to be about slam count since he's likely going to lose the lead, but it's too late to switch midstream.
 

octogon

Hall of Fame
It's an unofficial title discussed mostly online that is very flawed given all the metrics it ignores.

To be honest, I think it's a fair measure/metric.

Other sports do it as well. Michael Schumacher is the Formula 1 GOAT, till Lewis Hamilton (6 world titles) at least ties Schumacher's 7 world titles. Then it's a toss-up. But if Hamilton hits 8, he's out there alone as GOAT of his sport.

Jack Nickalaus is the GOAT of Golf, till Tiger Woods wins more majors than him. If he wins 1 more major than Nickalaus, Woods will be the consensus GOAT of his sport. Doesn't matter what else Nickalaus has done.

I think going primarily by slam count is the fairest measure to determine the best ever to play the game in Tennis as well.
 

ScottleeSV

Professional
It's a fair 'indicator', Oct, but it's also very problematic. If Djokovic achieves the goal a lot of people might generally accept it. If Nadal gets it though, with 13 or 14 Roland Garos, that's a bit harder to then call him greatest of all surfaces.

How many would Sampras have won if he'd still had people to chase? By accounts he was still a fine player at 35/36.

How many would Graf have won if she had plodded on? How many would Seles have won? Borg? Laver?

Is Court better than Williams? Many think not. But she does have more slams.

In darts, Phil Taylor has 16 world titles, but most people think Van Gerwen is a naturally better player, even if he won't win half of those world titles. On the rest of the calender though, he is tearing into Phil's records on an annual basis.

Snooker, Hendry has 7 world titles and Ronnie 5, but many still think Ronnie is better.

..

It's all just debate at the end of it all. No official titles or definitive answers.
 

ohiostate124

Professional
The guy with the most slams will take that title of overall GOAT....right now, I'm leaning towards Nadal being that guy.

Federer is almost out of the equation. He's technically GOAT now because 20>19>17, but as soon as Rafa ties him, things like the dominating H2H of Rafa in Grand Slams will put Roger into second of his era.

The GOAT race is realistically between Novak and Rafa. Roger's ceiling right now looks to be 2nd best of his era, if somehow Novak just stops winning slams. Coronavirus might have been the best thing to happen for Roger's legacy, because it took probably another slam off table for Novak in Wimbledon.
Rafa only dominates the h2h on clay so that isn’t going to put him past Fed. Sorry to tell you that.
 

octogon

Hall of Fame
It's a fair 'indicator', Oct, but it's also very problematic. If Djokovic achieves the goal a lot of people might generally accept it. If Nadal gets it though, with 13 or 14 Roland Garos, that's a bit harder to then call him greatest of all surfaces.

How many would Sampras have won if he'd still had people to chase? By accounts he was still a fine player at 35/36.

How many would Graf have won if she had plodded on? How many would Seles have won? Borg? Laver?

Is Court better than Williams? Many think not. But she does have more slams.

In darts, Phil Taylor has 16 world titles, but most people think Van Gerwen is a naturally better player, even if he won't win half of those world titles. On the rest of the calender though, he is tearing into Phil's records on an annual basis.

Snooker, Hendry has 7 world titles and Ronnie 5, but many still think Ronnie is better.

..

It's all just debate at the end of it all. No official titles or definitive answers.
Ronnie O'Sullivan is the Ayrton Senna argument in Formula 1 for Snooker. Many claim Senna to be the best/most talented driver ever (better than Schumacher, Hamilton etc), but at the end of the day, Senna has not got the numbers/titles to be his sport's GOAT, no matter how talented you think he was.

Ronnie might be considered the greatest natural talent ever in Snooker, but until he at least matches Hendry's 7 world titles, Hendry will generally be regarded as the GOAT of his sport. O'Sullivan has repeated this himself many times.

Serena and Court is almost a non-comparison as Court won like half of her slams before the Open Era. Open Era slam count, Serena is on her own and can rightfully be regarded as female GOAT for tennis .

No one (other than very hardcore Djokovic/Federer fans who seem to insist on holding on to a dead narrative of Nadal as a one surface wonder) will have any problem accepting Nadal as GOAT if he wins the most slams. Nadal is the one with mutiple slams won on every surface. If anything, Federer and Djokovic might want to try and win more than one French Open, to bolster their "credibility" as GOAT across surfaces.
 
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GabeT

Legend
Yeah, and across social media and every other forum, and tennis media and mainstream media.

But "only in places like TTW". Suuuuure!
No, only places like TTW. There is not a single tennis expert or commentator that thinks whoever has the most slams is the GOAT. it’s a ridiculous idea for anyone who knows anything about tennis, given how much the sport has changed and how much the relevance of slams has changed over time.

it wasn’t that long ago that players would regularly skip the AO. To argue that slams is the GOAT metric is to argue that no player pre Sampras can even be considered for the GOAT race.
 

BeatlesFan

Bionic Poster
It wasn’t that long ago that players would regularly skip the AO.
True and a valid point. Hand it to Wilander and Lendl who were the first ATG's to go down there and slog it out on lousy grass in December. They even had another court adjacent to the court they played on back then.

 

ND-13

Professional
Shows Djokovic's awesome personality. Hallmark of a player who knows his own standing on the sport.

While he may be upset that he does not get crowd support on occassions, his respect for Federer and Nadal is always at the highest level. Not the first time he has called Roger as the GOAT.
 

GabeT

Legend
You repeat that quite often lately.

Question for you: if you could have Djokovic suddenly have 20 slams and Roger only 17, would you trade? Or won't you admit it? ;)
I would trade, of course. As a Nole fan I want him to win as much as possible. You want the same for Fed and rightly so.

In that scenario though I wouldn’t say Nole is the GOAT. And if Novak ends up with the most slams I won’t either. I’m sure you and others would remind me if I slipped on that!

When I claim they are co GOATs I just mean that the Big 3 have pushed tennis in ways no other players have in the past. I’m not claiming their peak levels are greater than prior players (tend to think that is the case but impossible to prove). Rather the combination of their incredible skills and their focus on tennis is unprecedented. Look at Borg, an incredible player and in many ways GOAT candidate himself. Yet as soon as he slipped from number 1 he quit the sport. Compare with the number of times the Big 3 were supposed to be past their prime yet never surrendered and they all came back. Over and over. We have never seen anything like that.

I think that they all have records none of the others have. No matter who gets the most slams none will rival Nadal’s feat at RG and clay, Fed’s at Wimbledon or his 18 of 19 consecutive finals, or Novak’s 4 slams in a row or winning all top tier events.

It’s fitting that they are all tied at age 32 with 17 slams each and 5 year end #1. Sure, there are other records, many other records. But I don’t see anyone of them clearly above the others no matter who ends up with the most slams. Even if that happens to be my favorite player.
 
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joohan

Hall of Fame
Ronnie might be considered the greatest natural talent ever in Snooker, but until he at least matches Hendry's 7 world titles, Hendry will generally be regarded as the GOAT of his sport. O'Sullivan has repeated this himself many times.
I don't think there's any doubt about Ronnie being the greatest natural talent snooker has ever seen (exhibit A - the fastest 147 ever) and based on recent articles and reactions on Eurosport, there does not seem to be much doubt about the GOAT debate either. I would say numbers matter a bit less in snooker than in tennis as far as these debates go.
 

octogon

Hall of Fame
Yeah, I'm not here for this "co-GOAT" nonsense. LOL!

That's a narrative being primarily pushed by Federer fans who were happy to proclaim him as the SOLE GOAT when they thought the slam record would remain his, and his alone .

Now that's going away, several Fed fans are desperately trying to reframe the narrative where somehow Fed can stay GOAT, despite losing the slam record that solidified that claim in the first place.

It's transparent as hell, and only the most naive will buy it. The GOAT race will almost certainly boil down to Rafa and Novak. And as always, there will only be one GOAT when the race is finished
 

GabeT

Legend
Yeah, I'm not here for this "co-GOAT" nonsense. LOL!

That's a narrative being primarily pushed by Federer fans who were happy to proclaim him as the SOLE GOAT when they thought the slam record would remain his, and his alone .

Now that's going away, several Fed fans are desperately trying to reframe the narrative where somehow Fed can stay GOAT, despite losing the slam record that solidified that claim in the first place.

It's transparent as hell, and only the most naive will buy it. The GOAT race will almost certainly boil down to Rafa and Novak. And as always, there will only be one GOAT when the race is finished
I’m not a Fed fan. I’m a Novak fan.

And as good as Nadal is just winning lots and lots of RG doesn’t make you GOAT.

There is no way one player can be GOAT based on how good you are on just one surface.
 

octogon

Hall of Fame
I don't think there's any doubt about Ronnie being the greatest natural talent snooker has ever seen (exhibit A - the fastest 147 ever) and based on recent articles and reactions on Eurosport, there does not seem to be much doubt about the GOAT debate either. I would say numbers matter a bit less in snooker than in tennis as far as these debates go.
Who cares about recent articles and reactions in articles and Eurosport? Snooker has to promote itself, and Ronnie is a still active player near the top of his game, while Hendry is long retired and old news. The comparison will even out when Ronnie is retired and no longer seen as the sport's biggest active star. Then you will see a lot more articles advocating that Hendry HAS to be considered snooker's GOAT because of his world titles record (provided Ronnie doesn't at least match him before he is done).
 

octogon

Hall of Fame
I’m not a Fed fan. I’m a Novak fan.

And as good as Nadal is just winning lots and lots of RG doesn’t make you GOAT.

There is no way one player can be GOAT based on how good you are on just one surface.

Novak fans and Fed fans talk the same garbage about Nadal, so no surprise.

Nadal is an all-time great across all surfaces. His non-clay career (7 slams + Olympic Singles Gold) is equivalent to Andre Agassi, one of the all-time greats of the sport we love.

I'm genuinely embarrassed by people who still try to diminish just how staggering Nadal's achievements are OFF-CLAY. He'd arguably be one of the 10 greatest players of the Open era without a single French Open win, based on resume. Try and digest that. When they try to diminish his non-clay career, they unwittingly insult many of the all-time greats of tennis. Combined with his results on clay, regarding Nadal as GOAT if he holds the slam record is an open and shut case.
 

GabeT

Legend
Novak fans and Fed fans talk the same garbage about Nadal, so no surprise.

Nadal is an all-time great across all surfaces. His non-clay career (7 slams + Olympic Singles Gold) is equivalent to Andre Agassi, one of the all-time greats of the sport we love.

I'm genuinely embarrassed by people who still try to diminish just how staggering Nadal's achievements are OFF-CLAY. When they do that, they unwittingly insult many of the all-time greats of tennis. Combined with his results on clay, regarding Nadal as GOAT if he holds the slam record is an open and shut case.
Nobody denies Nadal’s accomplishments. At all.
But no, winning lots and lots of RGs doesn’t make you GOAT.
 

octogon

Hall of Fame
Nobody denies Nadal’s accomplishments. At all.
But no, winning lots and lots of RGs doesn’t make you GOAT.

You are going in circles and talking nonsense at this point. Winning lots of RGs doesn't diminish Nadal's overall GOAT claim. It enhances it, because he has an all-time resume without clay. He doesn't need to win another slam off clay. 7 is all-time great territory.

You are stuck repeating talking points from 5 years that no longer stand up to scrutiny or make any sense at all.
 

joohan

Hall of Fame
Who cares about recent articles and reactions in articles and Eurosport? Snooker has to promote itself, and Ronnie is a still active player near the top of his game, while Hendry is long retired and old news. The comparison will even out when Ronnie is retired and no longer seen as the sport's biggest active star. Then you will see a lot more articles advocating that Hendry HAS to be considered snooker's GOAT because of his world titles record (provided Ronnie doesn't at least match him before he is done).
Might as well...I don't see it happening though. And Ronnie will not match Hendry, he'd be lucky if he adds one more before he retires.
 

GabeT

Legend
You are going in circles and talking nonsense at this point. Winning lots of RGs doesn't diminish Nadal's overall GOAT claim. It enhances it, because he has an all-time resume without clay.

You are stuck repeating talking points from 5 years that no longer stand up to scrutiny or make any sense at all.
Yes, he has a great non clay resume. But other players have a much greater non clay resume.

It never made any sense to think that most slams equals GOAT which is why no tennis expert uses that métric. Only in TTW

Nadal has accomplished a lot but so have Fed and Novak. Nadal has records the other two don’t but that’s true of all of them.

Nadal is the clay GOAT and that’s great. But Fed and Novak are much better at grass and HC.
 

DjokoGOAT

Semi-Pro
The guy with the most slams will take that title of overall GOAT....right now, I'm leaning towards Nadal being that guy.

Federer is almost out of the equation. He's technically GOAT now because 20>19>17, but as soon as Rafa ties him, things like the dominating H2H of Rafa in Grand Slams will put Roger into second of his era.

The GOAT race is realistically between Novak and Rafa. Roger's ceiling right now looks to be 2nd best of his era, if somehow Novak just stops winning slams. Coronavirus might have been the best thing to happen for Roger's legacy, because it took probably another slam off table for Novak in Wimbledon.
Novak is ahead of Rafa even with 2 less slams.
 

octogon

Hall of Fame
Yes, he has a great non clay resume. But other players have a much greater non clay resume.

It never made any sense to think that most slams equals GOAT which is why no tennis expert uses that métric. Only in TTW

Nadal has accomplished a lot but so have Fed and Novak. Nadal has records the other two don’t but that’s true of all of them.

Nadal is the clay GOAT and that’s great. But Fed and Novak are much better at grass and HC.
Conversely, Nadal has achieved far more off clay, than Federer and Djokovic have off hard and grass (which play very similarly since homogenisation took place).

There's an argument to be made, that Nadal overall performed greater than Federer and Djokovic in a Tour designed to favor their strengths preferred and surfaces. Nadal shouldn't really be close to the slam record because of this, yet he is. And he probably would have had the slam record by a wide margin years ago, if he were not so consistently injured
 
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