Djokovic trails Federer 16-17 in BO3

Djokovic never solved the Federer serve+1.

He never figured Roger out. He solved almost every other differential equation that came across his path in his career… but never Roger.

This record is special to me. It’s one of the most admirable achievements in tennis history really. Even until the bitter end Federer had Djokovic chasing him, not the other way around. He always found a way to remain on the front foot and asking the questions. I’ll never forget the bamboozled look on Novak’s face during much of their match at YEC 2019.

This was a great rivalry with no clear victor at any stage of it. And Federer never failed to dazzle, even close to 40.
 
I think Federer is the better more skilled player, Djokovic kinda grinded him down until fed got too old to hang in bo5, aided by a few lucky escapes ala 40-15. The better player / team doesn’t always win, look at Chelsea’s CL run in 2012. Barcelona and Bayern were technically light years ahead of them but they grinded out the wins through sheer determination. That’s sport.

BO3 amplified the skill difference, fed can dust him off in 2 maybe 3 sets with his attacking game, unless it’s a slow court like rome, Indian wells etc. even Paris 2018 was another Houdini act from Djokovic to clutch the win.

BO5, other things come into play, slam pressure, stamina, speed, shot tolerance.
 
Irrelevant record.

Only levels where Djokovic is behind fed is ATP 500s and Davis cup.

Slams masters he leads fed and ATP finals is tied.
Masters Djokovic retired once in mc but ATP finals fed withdrew. Otherwise from top to bottom Djokovic holds advantage for each level.

Roger holds advantage at 500s
 
It kind of makes sense because Federer's onslaught could kill the contest extremely quickly, and in bo3, there's little opportunity to recover lost ground when you are chasing. When Fed came out hot, he could show a clean pair of heels in a set/match faster than anyone.
Bo5 opens up the long game where Djokovic's boa constrictor tactics steadily ramp up the pressure on the serve +1. Extremely difficult to win those marathon contests if the other guy is a bit more consistent and better at defending. Fed as the more attacking minded player had to maintain a ridiculously high level for hours on end, or he would lose, which against Djok, he often did in the longer format.
 
McGradey said:
It kind of makes sense because Federer's onslaught could kill the contest extremely quickly, and in bo3, there's little opportunity to recover lost ground when you are chasing. When Fed came out hot, he could show a clean pair of heels in a set/match faster than anyone.
Bo5 opens up the long game where Djokovic's boa constrictor tactics steadily ramp up the pressure on the serve +1. Extremely difficult to win those marathon contests if the other guy is a bit more consistent and better at defending. Fed as the more attacking minded player had to maintain a ridiculously high level for hours on end, or he would lose, which against Djok, he often did in the longer format.
Click to expand...
Such a big explanation for just 1 match difference.

How about this. Fed is leading the 500s race. While Djokovic owned masters and even ATP finals. All were bo3.
 
McGradey said:
It kind of makes sense because Federer's onslaught could kill the contest extremely quickly, and in bo3, there's little opportunity to recover lost ground when you are chasing. When Fed came out hot, he could show a clean pair of heels in a set/match faster than anyone.
Bo5 opens up the long game where Djokovic's boa constrictor tactics steadily ramp up the pressure on the serve +1. Extremely difficult to win those marathon contests if the other guy is a bit more consistent and better at defending. Fed as the more attacking minded player had to maintain a ridiculously high level for hours on end, or he would lose, which against Djok, he often did in the longer format.
Click to expand...
Excellent post. I actually think Fed had a bit more variety in his path to victory than just the Shanghai/Cincy offensive blitzkriegs though. In fact, an overlooked part of the Bo3 vs Bo5 dynamic is how important Fed’s defense actually was in the matchup.

If you look at his biggest wins, Fed could turn Djokovic’s serve and BH-to-BH into a black hole with his slice defense that refused to leak attackable balls for Novak off the normal BH to BH routine. Even as late as WB 2012 he gave Novak fits with his blocked return and slice. Djokovic is not some agency-less backboard, he prefers to attack and methodically move Fed around. Fed actually frustrated him quite well in some of these Bo3 matches and often for long periods in Bo5, just couldn’t sustain the requisite baseline intensity for 4 hours.

It’s staggering to me how often Fed’s defense was actually the difference maker in his wins. When Federer had the stamina to really match him from the baseline and commit to longer rallies, Djokovic really struggled to hit through him, even at his absolute peak.
 
change words nolefams and mike and gonna be correct
 
Yes we know Fed was better in the moral H2H.

The proof is trivial and has been left as an exercise to the reader.
 
Slice is a necessity for Roger. He tried ballbashing but it didn't work most of the times as Novak can redirect the balls better than Roger while standing on baseline..

Roger has tried to disrupt Djokovic's rhythm many a times with his slice and hoped Novak would be out of position. But due to very consistent backhand, Novak was able to create repeated offense vs Federer. It's a death by thousand cuts strategy. Like in Paris 2018.

It's not like Roger blunted Novak's offense. Novak was not always hitting neutral balls on these slices.

In the end each of them have their own strengths and weaknesses. And they had to play as per the abilities.
 
between fed and nole it was always very close game wise and their mental strength was what made the difference. the more important the match and the more important moment in the match, the greater the advantage for nole. and best of 3 games are simply games with less importance and therefore less pressure. but even there it is 9-5 in finals to nole.

nole - fed h2h rivalry; feds W%
  • All matches (50): Djokovic, 27–23 (one walkover not included); 46%
  • before the final : 14 - 17; 55%
  • but All finals (20): Djokovic, 13–6 (one walkover not included); 32%

    Grand Slam matches: Djokovic, 11–6; 35%
    before the final 7-5; 42%
    but all Grand Slam finals: Djokovic, 4–1; 20%

    ATP Tour Finals matches: Tied 3–3 (one walkover not included); 50%
    before the final 1-3; 75%
    but ATP Tour Finals finals: Djokovic, 2–0 (one walkover not included), 0%

    ATP Masters matches: Djokovic, 11–9; 45%
    before the final 6-6, 50%
    but ATP Masters finals: Djokovic, 5–3; 38%

    Other matches (MM): Federer, 5–2; 71%
    before the final fed 3-0; 100%
    but Other finals: Tied, 2–2; 50%

    Best of five set matches: Djokovic, 11–7; 39%
    matches lasting 3 or 4 sets 7-7; 50%
    but Matches lasting five sets: Djokovic, 4–0; 0%

    Best of three set matches: Tied, 16–16 (one walkover not included); 50%
    matcher lasting 2 sets fed 11-6; 65%
    but Matches lasting three sets: Djokovic, 10–5; 33%

    Winning the match after losing 1st set: Djokovic, 7–1
    Winning the match saving match points: Djokovic, 3–0

  • All sets: Federer, 74–73, 50%
    not deciding sets fed 69-59; 54%
    but Deciding sets: Djokovic, 14–5; 26%

    Total games: Federer, 755–747

    Tiebreak sets: Djokovic, 16–12; 43%
    not deciding TBs tied 12-12; 50%
    but Deciding Tiebreaks: Djokovic, 4–0; 0%

​

 
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GoatNo1 said:
between fed and nole it was always very close game wise and their mental strength was what made the difference. the more important the match and the more important moment in the match, the greater the advantage for nole. and best of 3 games are simply games with less importance and therefore less pressure. but even there it is 9-5 in finals to nole.

nole - fed h2h rivalry; feds W%
  • All matches (50): Djokovic, 27–23 (one walkover not included); 46%
  • before the final : 14 - 17; 55%
  • but All finals (20): Djokovic, 13–6 (one walkover not included); 32%

    Grand Slam matches: Djokovic, 11–6; 35%
    before the final 7-5; 42%
    but all Grand Slam finals: Djokovic, 4–1; 20%

    ATP Tour Finals matches: Tied 3–3(one walkover not included); 50%
    before the final 1-3; 75%
    but ATP Tour Finals finals: Djokovic, 2–0 (one walkover not included), 0%

    ATP Masters matches: Djokovic, 11–9; 45%
    before the final 6-6, 50%
    but ATP Masters finals: Djokovic, 5–3; 38%

    Other matches: Federer, 5–2; 71%
    before the final fed 3-0; 100%
    but Other finals: Tied, 2–2; 50%

    Best of five set matches: Djokovic, 11–7; 39%
    matches lasting 3 or 4 sets 7-7; 50%
    but Matches lasting five sets: Djokovic, 4–0; 0%

    Best of three set matches: Tied, 16–16; 50%
    matcher lasting 2 sets fed 11-6; 65%
    but Matches lasting three sets: Djokovic, 10–5; 33%

    Winning the match after losing 1st set: Djokovic, 7–1
    Winning the match saving match points: Djokovic, 3–0

  • All sets: Federer, 74–73
    not deciding sets fed 69-59; 54%
    but Deciding sets: Djokovic, 14–5; 26%

    • Total games: Federer, 755–747
  • Tiebreak sets: Djokovic, 16–12; 43%
    not decidings TBs tied 12-12; 50%
    but Deciding Tiebreaks: Djokovic, 4–0; 0%

​

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This is showing fed barely made past 50% in most of the categories. While he was 33 or below in so many of them.

Djokovic won biggest matches , be it in higher tournament level or finals of tournaments.

Federer won lower impact matches more.
 
Had Fed simply held serve with double match points at the 2011 USO and 2019 Wimbeldon matches, then it’s 25-25 instead of 23-27. That’s how close that rivalry was. Unfortunately, Fed didn’t hold. And now, he’s retired while trailing in the most important metric(24-20).

That’s the way it goes. Oh well. Tennis moves on. I moved on when McEnroe was passed by Lendl. I’ve moved on from this one. This time, it stung far less than in the 1980s, since it was the 2nd time that I had my favorite be passed up by an active player. The 1990s were much simpler times, because I rooted for both Agassi and Sampras.

I don’t dislike Djoker at all. I’ve seen him play live at a couple of different US Opens. I wouldn’t have missed it. It’s just that he arrived late to the party, due to being younger. So naturally, I always rooted for Fed over Djoker. Lendl was somebody that I hated for years. There really wasn’t a good reason for it. That’s just sports when you are a teenager.
 
Pheasant said:
Had Fed simply held serve with double match points at the 2011 USO and 2019 Wimbeldon matches, then it’s 25-25 instead of 23-27. That’s how close that rivalry was. Unfortunately, Fed didn’t hold. And now, he’s retired while trailing in the most important metric(24-20).

That’s the way it goes. Oh well. Tennis moves on. I moved on when McEnroe was passed by Lendl. I’ve moved on from this one. This time, it stung far less than in the 1980s, since it was the 2nd time that I had my favorite be passed up by an active player. The 1990s were much simpler times, because I rooted for both Agassi and Sampras.

I don’t dislike Djoker at all. I’ve seen him play live at a couple of different US Opens. I wouldn’t have missed it. It’s just that he arrived late to the party, due to being younger. So naturally, I always rooted for Fed over Djoker. Lendl was somebody that I hated for years. There really wasn’t a good reason for it. That’s just sports when you are a teenager.
Click to expand...
Yep fed and Novak are almost indistinguishable.
 
nolefam_2024 said:
Fedkovic is closest matchup in tennis and even in terms of achievements they are almost equal till now. Especially outside of clay.

Federer is better grass player and Djokovic better hard courts player.
Click to expand...
Roger cooks Egg on fast HC. Sunny side up on chicken fried rice.
 
Nuclear Warhead Sinner said:
Roger cooks Egg on fast HC. Sunny side up on chicken fried rice.
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Don't be so proud sinner fan.

IW Miami Djokovic cooked Roger. Never won a match if I am correct. Along with AO.

Novak has won a match at the very least vs Roger at every single fast hard court except Shanghai. He beat Roger to pulp in 2015 ATP finals and same beatdown was waiting in 2014.
 
Kralingen said:
Excellent post. I actually think Fed had a bit more variety in his path to victory than just the Shanghai/Cincy offensive blitzkriegs though. In fact, an overlooked part of the Bo3 vs Bo5 dynamic is how important Fed’s defense actually was in the matchup.

If you look at his biggest wins, Fed could turn Djokovic’s serve and BH-to-BH into a black hole with his slice defense that refused to leak attackable balls for Novak off the normal BH to BH routine. Even as late as WB 2012 he gave Novak fits with his blocked return and slice. Djokovic is not some agency-less backboard, he prefers to attack and methodically move Fed around. Fed actually frustrated him quite well in some of these Bo3 matches and often for long periods in Bo5, just couldn’t sustain the requisite baseline intensity for 4 hours.

It’s staggering to me how often Fed’s defense was actually the difference maker in his wins. When Federer had the stamina to really match him from the baseline and commit to longer rallies, Djokovic really struggled to hit through him, even at his absolute peak.
Click to expand...
This is a good post.

Djoko's biggest weakness is his lack of high end attacking skills, so essentially the rally keeps going and at some point Novak gives a more attackable ball because he cannot take his own chances to end a point from neutral.

That's why guys with limited movement like Berdych and Del Potro do poorly against Novak, because they lack the defensive skills to keep the rally going until they can find the forced error or winner.

Even as late as 2019 Fed could hold his own impressively in rallies when stretched or moved around.
 
The bravado of fed worshippers is exposed by numbers.

Djokovic won 3 in ATP finals, 2 in Paris, 1 in Dubai 1 in Cincinnati and 1 in Basel.

That's 8 wins.

Djokovic can beat Federer at any surface.
 
nolefam_2024 said:
Don't be so proud sinner fan.

IW Miami Djokovic cooked Roger. Never won a match if I am correct. Along with AO.

Novak has won a match at the very least vs Roger at every single fast hard court except Shanghai. He beat Roger to pulp in 2015 ATP finals and same beatdown was waiting in 2014.
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nolefam_2024 said:
The bravado of fed worshippers is exposed by numbers.

Djokovic won 3 in ATP finals, 2 in Paris, 1 in Dubai 1 in Cincinnati and 1 in Basel.

That's 8 wins.

Djokovic can beat Federer at any surface.
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djokovic has wins over rafa in every big tournament that they have played (never met in shanghai) rafa never won vs nole in AO, miami, cinci and paris.
nole has not wins over fed in MC and shanghai ad fed has not wins over nole in IW, miami, rome and paris.
nole won big finals vs fed in W, USO, WTF, IW, miami, canada and cinci and fed won big finals vs nole just in USO and cinci!
 
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ChrisRF said:
I don't think anyone ever doubted that. However, this counts vice versa. This pair is the only one in men's tennis history to have beaten each other at every 4 Slams.
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On medium hard courts Djokovic vs Federer is 8-1 and only 1 time fed won was vs a teenager Djokovic outside top 20.

So there will always be doubts now..
 
Federer won more than 83% of his tour matches in 8 out of 10 years between 2011-2019. Contrary to TTW memes, he didn’t get worse all of a sudden and kept up his excellence through his thirties. He was almost on par with Djokovic on most surfaces during this period. He also made ground in the H-H against Nadal during this decade compared to the one prior when he was younger.
 
Federer is a bit more skilled than Djokovic, but that wasn't enough.
 
Kralingen said:
Excellent post. I actually think Fed had a bit more variety in his path to victory than just the Shanghai/Cincy offensive blitzkriegs though. In fact, an overlooked part of the Bo3 vs Bo5 dynamic is how important Fed’s defense actually was in the matchup.

If you look at his biggest wins, Fed could turn Djokovic’s serve and BH-to-BH into a black hole with his slice defense that refused to leak attackable balls for Novak off the normal BH to BH routine. Even as late as WB 2012 he gave Novak fits with his blocked return and slice. Djokovic is not some agency-less backboard, he prefers to attack and methodically move Fed around. Fed actually frustrated him quite well in some of these Bo3 matches and often for long periods in Bo5, just couldn’t sustain the requisite baseline intensity for 4 hours.

It’s staggering to me how often Fed’s defense was actually the difference maker in his wins. When Federer had the stamina to really match him from the baseline and commit to longer rallies, Djokovic really struggled to hit through him, even at his absolute peak.
Click to expand...
Well to win 20 slams you have to have great defense too.

We aren't talking about Roddick here :whistle:
 
ND-13 said:
Till 2010 USO, Djokovic trailed 4-6.

Post 2010 USO, when Djokovic started getting the better of RF (mono or otherwise) in BO5 , the BO3 h2h is 12-11.

What it tells us ?
Click to expand...
It tells us Djokovic has beaten Federer in BO3 format 16 times, 4 of them being pre USO 2010, and 12 wins after it, while Federer has beaten Djokovic in BO3 format 17 times, 6 times being pre USO 2010 and 11 after that.​
 
AO13 said:
It tells us Djokovic has beaten Federer in BO3 format 16 times, 4 of them being pre USO 2010, and 12 wins after it, while Federer has beaten Djokovic in BO3 format 17 times, 6 times being pre USO 2010 and 11 after that.​
Click to expand...
no, nole won 16 times + 1 WO and fed won 16 times, not 17. so it is actually 17-16 for nole in best of 3 not otherwise!
 
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