Djokovic vs Federer - hard court summary

HC GOAT?

  • Federer, and he will still be after both players retire

    Votes: 47 44.3%

  • Federer now, but Djokovic will surpass him

    Votes: 34 32.1%

  • Djokovic, and he will only keep cementing his spot

    Votes: 25 23.6%
  • Total voters
    106
Doctor/Lawyer Red Devil

Doctor/Lawyer Red Devil

Talk Tennis Guru
With Djokovic rapidly equaling and breaking so many records now, results on one surface seem to stand out. Hard court has always been Novak's favorite surface, so much that he is already in discussion with Federer for HC GOAT title.
Federer has one more hard court Masters title outdoors (16-15), leads in most tier 1 hard court titles (33-29) while they are tied on overall hard court Masters titles (18 each).
Credit to @veroniquem for posting that a few moments ago.
Grand Slams are also in Fed's favor (9-7).
In their H2H meetings on this surface, Roger leads slightly (16-15), thanks to his small outdoors advantage (13-11) over Novak's indoor advantage (4-3).
Djokovic does lead in HC GS meetings (5-4) and currently has the best HC winning percentage in history, which is around 84%.
I think Djokovic will surpass Federer in all stats, not just because of the age difference, but also because of the current form he is in now.
%C4%90okovi%C4%87-Federer.jpg

Who is the HC GOAT?
A minor question too. If Djokovic gets to 9+ Grand Slams on hard court, is it essential to look at the US Open? Though Federer is very versatile with 5 USOs and 4 AOs, Djokovic winning one more AO would make him the first player to win one GS on hard court 6 times.
Credit to @Djokovic2011 for mentioning this yesterday.
Is US Open really more valuable than Australian Open or is it just about versatility? Or neither?
 
I guess Nole will surpass him.

However, Roger was kind of unlucky with the AO surface change. My guess is he would've won 5-6 titles had they kept Rebound Ace.
 
vanioMan said:
I guess Nole will surpass him.

However, Roger was kind of unlucky with the AO surface change. My guess is he would've won 5-6 titles had they kept Rebound Ace.
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3-0 Against one dimensional clay courter. Sickening for the current hard court GOAT.
 
I see Djokovic surpassing him. If both have 9 hard court slams and 6 WTF titles I probably would put Djokovic ahead due to all his extra Masters. Particularly if he has a 3rd U.S Open. He has a good shot to reach 10 hard court slams which would put him clearly ahead, although I guess you could make a case to the contrary if he never wins another U.S Open but I see that as unlikely.
 
vanioMan said:
I guess Nole will surpass him.

However, Roger was kind of unlucky with the AO surface change. My guess is he would've won 5-6 titles had they kept Rebound Ace.
Click to expand...

I doubt that. He ran into his nemesis Nadal often there (who post AO 2009 he had such a huge mental block against he would never play near his best against even if Nadal were vurnerable) and in some of those times could probably have beaten anyone else including who Nadal lost to, and in most of the other years he wasn't even playing well at the event (other than 2011 maybe where he lost to on fire Djokovic).
 
It's pretty shocking that Djoker leads in the indoor head to head, tho that may be because most of their indoor matches have been recent. I'd say Djokovic is on his way to surpassing Rog barring injury.
 
Novak is cool and collected. He is going to be greatest on IW, Miami (sorry Andre) and AO by his career end. Best slow hard court player in big 4.

He has great chance of reaching 10 HC slams. We have to wait till there career ends, but I think Djokovic will take it.
 
Nachiket Nolefam said:
Novak is cool and collected. He is going to be greatest on IW, Miami (sorry Andre) and AO by his career end. Best slow hard court player in big 4.

He has great chance of reaching 10 HC slams. We have to wait till there career ends, but I think Djokovic will take it.
Click to expand...
Djokovic can realistically win 2 more AOs and one more USO to get to 10 HC slams
 
6 years to catch, looking great for Nole. Especially 6 finals at USO already same as Fed, and very hopeful for his chances in next 2 years
 
Pete and Fed are the best I've seen in grass in the modern eras.

Agassi is right at the top on HCs, and Sampras's record on HCs in the Agassi era is amazing.

Novak on HCs is the best I have seen since 1990.

Novak can only add to his legacy. If he never won another slam on HC, he would still be right at the top.
 
Agassi didn't beat Sampras in his best year 1995, lost to him countless times. As always Pete was better than him.
He did miss some AO, but AO was legitimate slam in his time, his fault
 
I really feel like we need to separate between slow and fast hard.

No way Djokovic is better on fast hard than Fed or Sampras, but he does deserve the crown for slow hard (similarly for the Sampras - Agassi rivalry).
 
SpinToWin said:
I really feel like we need to separate between slow and fast hard.

No way Djokovic is better on fast hard than Fed or Sampras, but he does deserve the crown for slow hard (similarly for the Sampras - Agassi rivalry).
Click to expand...
Indeed.

Also, I was thinking - Is Federer, even right now, the best fast HC player in the world (meaning Djoker is not the best on all surfaces)?

Only Dubai, Cincy, and Shanghai are fast anymore really (maybe Beijing too actually), and Fed's won 2/3 of those events, beating Djokovic in both, this year.
I think this was definitely true before Novak won Shanghai, now maybe not so much.

Also inb4 someone says "Paris and WTF are fast", or "Canada/Cincy/USO are the exact same because it says so on that ITF PDF document". Lol.
 
Nachiket Nolefam said:
6 years to catch, looking great for Nole. Especially 6 finals at USO already same as Fed, and very hopeful for his chances in next 2 years
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Fed has 7 finals.
SpinToWin said:
I really feel like we need to separate between slow and fast hard.

No way Djokovic is better on fast hard than Fed or Sampras, but he does deserve the crown for slow hard (similarly for the Sampras - Agassi rivalry).
Click to expand...
That would be hard because it is not easy to agree what is fast and what is not all the time.
If any separation is possible without any problems, it is on outdoor and indoor hard.
 
Beijing was medium fast. And USO is real fast. Its not like IW and not like Cincy, middle of them both. Nole has reached 6 finals there already.
 
Doctor/Lawyer Red Devil said:
Fed has 7 finals.

That would be hard because it is not easy to agree what is fast and what is not all the time.
If any separation is possible without any problems, it is on outdoor and indoor hard.
Click to expand...
Okay counted them wrong, Fed didn't make final for 5 straight years. Novak would make at least 2/3 times I think.
 
Firstservingman said:
Indeed.

Also, I was thinking - Is Federer, even right now, the best fast HC player in the world (meaning Djoker is not the best on all surfaces)?

Only Dubai, Cincy, and Shanghai are fast anymore really (maybe Beijing too actually), and Fed's won 2/3 of those events, beating Djokovic in both, this year.
I think this was definitely true before Novak won Shanghai, now maybe not so much.

Also inb4 someone says "Paris and WTF are fast", or "Canada/Cincy/USO are the exact same because it says so on that ITF PDF document". Lol.
Click to expand...
He beat fed at the USO LOL. No but seriously cincinatti and the USO use the same surface which is pro decoturf. So essentially the same surface that fed crushed novak in cincinatti was the same surface novak beat fed a couple of weeks later at the USO. So no, Djokovic is the best player in the world everywhere

Also, paris is medium fast and the WTF is just medium
 
Noleberic123 said:
He beat fed at the USO LOL. No but seriously cincinatti and the USO use the same surface which is pro decoturf. So essentially the same surface that fed crushed novak in cincinatti was the same surface novak beat fed a couple of weeks later at the USO. So no, Djokovic is the best player in the world everywhere

Also, paris is medium fast and the WTF is just medium
Click to expand...
Cincy is definitely slicker and lower-bouncing than the USO, at least based on my observations.
Someone gave a really good possible reason for why this is the case once in another thread, but I don't remember it precisely.

If we count the USO though, then obviously not. ;)
 
Firstservingman said:
Cincy is definitely slicker and lower-bouncing than the USO, at least based on my observations.
Someone gave a really good possible reason for why this is the case once in another thread, but I don't remember it precisely.

If we count the USO though, then obviously not. ;)
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I think your just basing that on results. Cincinatti and USO surfaces have no difference. The shanghai surface is a different surface but it is similar in terms of speed to rogers cup/cincinatti/USO
 
Firstservingman said:
:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

I prefer AO TBH, even if the USO is more prestigious in the eyes of many.
Great tournament to attend.
Click to expand...

Yes, in terms of organization and perhaps atmosphere, I'm sure it's better. Just talking prestige here. 5 USO and 4 AO would look better than, say, 7 AO and 2 USO.
 
Doctor/Lawyer Red Devil said:
Why? Just askin'.
Click to expand...

'Cause USO is the slam with the second most prestige and the second oldest slam. AO was until not so long ago prioritized far less than the other slams by top players, and while it has certainly risen in this respect, it still certainly rings better to be the U.S. champion, where so many legends have made so much history.


Nachiket Nolefam said:
Because Djokovic owns AO
Click to expand...

Gee, impressive way to rebut.

"Novak's fans only care about AO because it's the only slam he truly owns"

See how easy that was
 
Yeah, owning even 1 slam is impressive achievement. And Prestige used to be old thing, without internet and less prize money for players.
Today it is as impressive as the rest and most guys have USO as their forth favorite slam behind Wimby/RG/AO.
 
Sysyphus said:
Yes, in terms of organization and perhaps atmosphere, I'm sure it's better. Just talking prestige here. 5 USO and 4 AO would look better than, say, 7 AO and 2 USO.
Click to expand...
I agree, but I think that's more an issue of balance.
 
MichaelNadal said:
Ultron is THE record. Forget current records, when he's done everything will say Dovak Nokovic stands alone. The guy is winning the next 10 FO's.
Click to expand...
And I'm going to get my Biochem 2 report in on time.
 
Nachiket Nolefam said:
Yeah, owning even 1 slam is impressive achievement. And Prestige used to be old thing, without internet and less prize money for players.
Today it is as impressive as the rest and most guys have USO as their forth favorite slam behind Wimby/RG/AO.
Click to expand...

Haha, I see.

Good thing for the AO that the internet came along to get rid of all dis der prestige and status.

Inb4 winning two Madrid is as great as winning a RG, amirite?

———

(The USO outdoes AO in terms of (1) TV ratings, (2) media hits and (3) in a poll of 108 players asked to rank the slams' prestige. Couldn't make this stuff up)
 
Last edited:
Sysyphus said:
'Cause USO is the slam with the second most prestige and the second oldest slam. AO was until not so long ago prioritized far less than the other slams by top players, and while it has certainly risen in this respect, it still certainly rings better to be the U.S. champion, where so many legends have made so much history.




Gee, impressive way to rebut.

"Novak's fans only care about AO because it's the only slam he truly owns"

See how easy that was
Click to expand...
"Was" is the key word there. Just because McEnroe or Borg or anyone else from three or more decades ago did not prioritize AO as much as other Slams does not mean it has no value now.
Talking about prestige, only Wimbledon has a bit more of that than the other three Slams.
We don't care only about AO. But it is obviously our favorite Slam.
 
Doctor/Lawyer Red Devil said:
"Was" is the key word there. Just because McEnroe or Borg or anyone else from three or more decades ago did not prioritize AO as much as other Slams does not mean it has no value now.
Talking about prestige, only Wimbledon has a bit more of that than the other three Slams.
We don't care only about AO. But it is obviously our favorite Slam.
Click to expand...

Look at my previous post: USO still outdoes AO in terms of TV ratings, media hits and players' rankings of prestige.

The world is the way it is because it was the way it was.
 
Doctor/Lawyer Red Devil said:
Fed has 7 finals.

That would be hard because it is not easy to agree what is fast and what is not all the time.
If any separation is possible without any problems, it is on outdoor and indoor hard.
Click to expand...
Not hard at all IMO. We have one end of the spectrum and the other (the ones in between may be tough... But they're not necessary really). USO historically is more of a fast hard court and AO is more of a slow hard court. Cinci is fast, Indian Wells and Miami are slow, etc. Oh and WTF currently is slow without a doubt.

By the way, I am not speaking of some incomplete factor like surface speed, but conditions in general. This includes temperatures, humidity, altitude, balls used, surface used etc.

You'd really be reaching if you claim that Djokovic is the best HC player ever without adding an asterisk. He is not the best or most accomplished player on fast hard courts. That title goes either to Fed or Sampras and there is no denying that currently.
 
Novak is 28 years and 5 months old at present, so if we take into consideration when Roger was 28 years and roughly 5 months, the year and month for comparison will be till January 2010 (2010 AO included)

HC Overall Win-Loss (Win %)
Roger: 431-93 (82.25)
Novak: 440-85 (83.81)

Grand Slams Won (HC only)
Roger: 4 AO, 5 AO: 9 in total
Novak: 5 AO, 2 US: 7 in total

HC Grand Slams Win-Loss (Win %)
Roger: 105-12 (89.74)
Novak: 107-15 (87.70)

Masters Won (HC Only)
Roger: 11
Novak: 18

HC Masters Win-Loss (Win %)
Roger: 124-35 (77.98)
Novak: 177-38 (82.32)

WTF
Roger: 4 (2003, 2004, 2006, 2007) (2005 was played under carpet in Shanghai, but he had lost to Nalbandian)
Novak: 4 (2008, 2012, 2013, 2014)
 
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That Roger is still competing with Novak at this point in his career and is perfectly capable of beating him over best of 3 sets suggests to me that this isn't really much of an argument.
 
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