Djokovic vs. Nadal

[WhiskeyEE]

Looking at the most important criteria:

Slams: 12 - 14 Nadal
WTFs: 5 - 0 Djokovic
Big 5 titles: 17 - 14 Djokovic
Holes in resume: None and WTF (indoor) Djokovic
Weeks at #1: 202 - 141 Djokovic
YE#1: 4 - 3 Djokovic
Masters: 29 - 28 Djokovic
H2H: 26:23 Djokovic
Most dominant season: 2015, 2011 > any of Nadal's seasons Djokovic

I also think that Novak has shown more well roundedness, dominating both outdoor and indoor HC, winning 3 Wimbledons, and defending titles on every surface.

Novak's resume is also growing. He could easily erase that hole in his resume in a few months and then the only advantage Nadal would have in this comparison is 2 slams. Novak would be ahead in every other possible metric.

I said last year that, as soon as Novak took the lead in Big 5 titles, h2h, and masters count, I would consider him greater than Nadal.

And now that's true. Novak > Nadal all time IMO.

 

[weakera]

Well there is the objectively historically inferior competition Nole has cleaned up against, whereas Nadal did his work against the toughest competition ever (prime Nole+Grandpa)... but let's just gloss over that, right?

These things aren't as black and white as you'd like to believe.

 

[Gaelle Caplier]

One RG title by Novak or 2-3 other GS titles will make Djokovic greater than Nadal.

 

[Djokovic_is_the_best#1]

I agree OP. And very soon Nole will win RG and overtake him in slams too

 

[WhiskeyEE]

Well there is the objectively historically inferior competition Nole has cleaned up against, whereas Nadal did his work against the toughest competition ever (prime Nole+Grandpa)... but let's just gloss over that, right?

These things aren't as black and white as you'd like to believe.

Yes... superior competition like his USO draws. Biggest competition on clay, where he won 70% of his titles, being guys who strongly prefer HC and grass. Riiiiight.

 

[BVSlam]

I wouldn't say tie for biggest hole at this point, winning the career golden slam but missing a WTF title beats not having a RG title. Other than that, yes, Djokovic has greater numbers than Nadal in most consistency-based records.

 

[weakera]

Yes... superior competition like his USO draws. Biggest competition on clay being guys who strongly prefer HC and clay. Riiiiight.

You could have lined up the 6 best clay players ever to face Rafa at Roland Garros in his prime and he would have won every time all the same.

 

[WhiskeyEE]

You could have lined up the 6 best clay players ever to face Rafa at Roland Garros in his prime and he would have won every time all the same.

In 2008 maybe. The other years a good clay specialist like Kuerten or Ferrero could've taken him out. 2005, 2011, 2013, and 2014 especially.

 

[weakera]

In 2008 maybe. The other years a good clay specialist like Kuerten or Ferrero could've taken him out. 2005, 2011, 2013, and 2014 especially.

No

 

[RF-18]

Yes, IMO Djokovic is greater than Nadal. I had my doubts before today but after his 28th master Djokovic is the greater player IMV. You can't ignore all these stats and give nadal the edge based on ONE tournament when Djokovic leads him in every freaking stat.

 

[timnz]

Looking at the most important criteria:

Slams: 11 - 14 Nadal
WTFs: 5 - 0 Djokovic
Big 5 titles: 16 - 14 Djokovic
Holes in resume: Roland Garros (clay) and WTF (indoor) TIe
Weeks at #1: 193 - 141 Djokovic
YE#1: 4 - 3 Djokovic
Masters: 28 - 27 Djokovic
H2H: 25:23 Djokovic
Most dominant season: 2015, 2011 > any of Nadal's seasons Djokovic

I also think that Novak has shown more well roundedness, dominating both outdoor and indoor HC, winning 3 Wimbledons, and defending titles on every surface.

Novak's resume is also growing. He could easily erase that hole in his resume in a few months and then the only advantage Nadal would have in this comparison is 2 slams. Novak would be ahead in every other possible metric.

I said last year that, as soon as Novak took the lead in Big 5 titles, h2h, and masters count, I would consider him greater than Nadal.

And now that's true. Novak > Nadal all time IMO.

If you quantify Tournament achievements weighted at present ATP weightings - you get:

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/inde...-current-atp-weightings-for-the-big-4.558612/

Djokovic is 3.5% ahead on points at 500 level and above.

 

[WhiskeyEE]

No

I think anyone can agree that Federer and Novak have had far stiffer competition on HC, where they won most of their titles, than Nadal ever had on clay.

Nadal starts to slip just a little and the closest thing to a clay specialist, Fognini, starts owning him. So I think elite clay specialists from the early 2000s and prior would give him trouble.

 

[weakera]

I think anyone can agree that Federer and Novak have had far stiffer competition on HC, where they won most of their titles, than Nadal ever had on clay.

Nadal starts to slip just a little and the closest thing to a clay specialist, Fognini, starts owning him. So I think elite clay specialists from the early 2000s and prior would give him trouble.

I really think most would completely disagree with that, sadly for you.

Nadal consistently dispatched two of the greatest ever on any given surface throughout his prime - had he had a period of his prime in which he didn't have to contend with them, like Nole is enjoying currently and Federer took advantage of earlier, there's no telling what his slam count would be.

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

Three majors is still a huge gap, but as soon as it's down to one, which is very possible to happen this year (and all but guaranteed next year otherwise), Djokovic is ahead of Nadal hands down.

 

[Diehard]

Looking at the most important criteria:

Slams: 11 - 14 Nadal
WTFs: 5 - 0 Djokovic
Big 5 titles: 16 - 14 Djokovic
Holes in resume: Roland Garros (clay) and WTF (indoor) TIe
Weeks at #1: 193 - 141 Djokovic
YE#1: 4 - 3 Djokovic
Masters: 28 - 27 Djokovic
H2H: 25:23 Djokovic
Most dominant season: 2015, 2011 > any of Nadal's seasons Djokovic

I also think that Novak has shown more well roundedness, dominating both outdoor and indoor HC, winning 3 Wimbledons, and defending titles on every surface.

Novak's resume is also growing. He could easily erase that hole in his resume in a few months and then the only advantage Nadal would have in this comparison is 2 slams. Novak would be ahead in every other possible metric.

I said last year that, as soon as Novak took the lead in Big 5 titles, h2h, and masters count, I would consider him greater than Nadal.

And now that's true. Novak > Nadal all time IMO.

You conveniently missed the most important statistic...Nadal 1 career slam Djokovic 0.

Until that changes, history will always have nadal > djokovic despite what you or me may think

 

[WhiskeyEE]

I really think most would completely disagree with that, sadly for you.

Nadal consistently dispatched two of the greatest ever on any given surface throughout his prime - had he had a period of his prime in which he didn't have to contend with them, like Nole is enjoying currently and Federer took advantage of earlier, there's no telling what his slam count would be.

At age 25 Nadal was already getting beat by the likes of Rosol at Wimbledon. Needed 2 gift draws to win his USOs and was never that good at AO. Got taken to 5 by Verdasco and then his favourite matchup in the final. He was very lucky to win 5 non-RG slams to be frank.

 

[Diehard]

Yes, IMO Djokovic is greater than Nadal. I had my doubts before today but after his 28th master Djokovic is the greater player IMV. You can't ignore all these stats and give nadal the edge based on ONE tournament.

Nadal and Djokovic both > Federer. But for each other they would have smashed all of federers records. Federer's record against both is appalling for a so callled ATG.

Right now Nadal > Djokovic due to career slam, but that will likely change come June. Federer a distant third though.

 

[weakera]

At age 25 Nadal was already getting beat by the likes of Rosol at Wimbledon, he needed 2 gift draws to win his USOs, and he was never that good at AO. Got taken to 5 by Verdasco and got his favourite matchup in the final. He was lucky to win a single non-RG slam to be frank.

At 25, you mean when he was suffering from knee tendinitis and then pulled out of the Olympics?

He needed a gift draw to win the USO while he swept the North American hard court circuit, something Nole has never done?

Lucky to win Wimbledon when he slayed the grass goat?

Trollol

 

[WhiskeyEE]

You conveniently missed the most important statistic...Nadal 1 career slam Djokovic 0.

Until that changes, history will always have nadal > djokovic despite what you or me may think

That is not the most important statistic since they are both missing 1 of the premier tournaments.

 

[Diehard]

At age 25 Nadal was already getting beat by the likes of Rosol at Wimbledon. Needed 2 gift draws to win his USOs and was never that good at AO. Got taken to 5 by Verdasco and then his favourite matchup in the final. He was very lucky to win 5 non-RG slams to be frank.

LOL!! 5 GS is lucky!! Tell tat to Djokovic and see what his response would be after he punches you in the face!

 

[Diehard]

That is not the most important statistic since they are both missing 1 of the premier tournaments.

Career slam is the holy grail..only 4 men have it, all of whom are universally acknowledged as ATG by everyone.

 

[WhiskeyEE]

At 25, you mean when he was suffering from knee tendinitis and then pulled out of the Olympics?

He needed a gift draw to win the USO while he swept the North American hard court circuit, something Nole has never done?

Lucky to win Wimbledon when he slayed the grass goat?

Trollol

Nadal played 5 sets against Rosol fine. And it isn't like he has done any better since then. He has gotten worse on grass every year. Besides, there has been speculation recently from a certain sports authority that the knee tendinitis was really a cover up for something else.

He had joke draws for both USOs. No getting around that. Novak has won all of his clay matches leading up to more than 1 RG and has failed to win it. Your draw in the big event matters regardless of your results immediately prior.

 

[Diehard]

Nadal played 5 sets against Rosol fine. And it isn't like he has done any better since then. He has gotten worse on grass every year. Besides, there has been speculation recently from a sports authority that the knee tendinitis was a cover up for something else.

He had joke draws for both USOs. No getting around that. Novak has won all of his clay matches leading up to more than 1 RG and has failed to win it. Your draw in the big event matters regardless of your performance immediately prior.

the joke draw comments you make would embarrass djokovic and he would disown you as a fan.

The sport authority you refer to, could you provide details? Bear in mind djokovic was seen inesting something under his towel at AO 2012, a tournament many people think he doped at...including the BBC.

 

[WhiskeyEE]

Career slam is the holy grail..only 4 men have it, all of whom are universally acknowledged as ATG by everyone.

Actually, the WTF is the Holy Grail

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/the-fedalovinci-code.533845/

 

[WhiskeyEE]

the joke draw comments you make would embarrass djokovic and he would disown you as a fan.

The sport authority you refer to, could you provide details? Bear in mind djokovic was seen inesting something under his towel at AO 2012, a tournament many people think he doped at...including the BBC.

I don't think you can speak on behalf of Djokovic. That's like me saying that your mother would disown you if she read your comments on here. It may be true, but we don't know for sure.

 

[Diehard]

I don't think you can speak on behalf of Djokovic. That's like me saying that your mother would disown you if she read your comments on here. It may be true, but we don't know for sure.

Well if Djokovic said Nadal's 2 USO were a weak era slams, gien he lost both finals, that would be a bit stupid!! And what do people think of last two years? Djokovic only winning once Fedal decline? Trust me, Djokovic would disown any weak era crap as it actually reflects badly on him

 

[Diehard]

Actually, the WTF is the Holy Grail

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/the-fedalovinci-code.533845/

hmmm....WTF is irrelevant according to the pros...but what do they know.

 

[WhiskeyEE]

Well if Djokovic said Nadal's 2 USO were a weak era slams, gien he lost both finals, that would be a bit stupid!! And what do people think of last two years? Djokovic only winning once Fedal decline? Trust me, Djokovic would disown any weak era crap as it actually reflects badly on him

I think Novak would be honest and say that he didn't beat a single top 10 player in 2010 until the USO. He was crap that year and wasn't a strong final opponent.

He may also say that he choked the 2013 final while experiencing a PTSD episode due to the RG SF botched overhead.

 

[Diehard]

I think Novak would be honest and say that he didn't beat a single top 10 player in 2010 until the USO. He was crap that year and wasn't a strong final opponent.

He may also say that he choked the 2013 final after still having nightmares from the RG SF botched overhead.

Crap in 2010....he beat Federer in SF so that would just come across as Federer trolling tbh!!

2013 i actually do agree as Nadal was way past his best and how he got 2 majors that year was simply his aura at the time.

 

[weakera]

Nadal played 5 sets against Rosol fine. And it isn't like he has done any better since then. He has gotten worse on grass every year. Besides, there has been speculation recently from a certain sports authority that the knee tendinitis was really a cover up for something else.

He had joke draws for both USOs. No getting around that. Novak has won all of his clay matches leading up to more than 1 RG and has failed to win it. Your draw in the big event matters regardless of your results immediately prior.

I feel bad for you.

 

[GabeT]

Further Breakdown on Slams

AO: 6-1 Nole
Roland Garros: 0- 9 Nadal
Wimby: 3-2 Nole
US Open: 2-2 Tied (but Nole has more finals and better w/l record)

 

[Diehard]

Further Breakdown on Slams

AO: 6-1 Nole
Roland Garros: 0- 9 Nadal
Wimby: 3-2 Nole
US Open: 2-2 Tied (but Nole has more finals and better w/l record)

At USO nadal is 2-1 h2h in finals. That is crucial, Becker considers is 1-2 losing W final record to Edberg to be his biggest disappointment!!!

The point is Nadal has won the lot, Novak hasnt. Not yet, but i sincerely hope he gets FO this year.

Both are ahead of federer though in reality now.

 

[WhiskeyEE]

Further Breakdown on Slams

AO: 6-1 Nole
Roland Garros: 0- 9 Nadal
Wimby: 3-2 Nole
US Open: 2-2 Tied (but Nole has more finals and better w/l record)

We could just as easily do

Premier titles
Outdoor HC: 8-3 Djokovic
Clay: 0 - 9 Nadal
Grass: 3 - 2 Djokovic
Indoor HC: 5 - 0 Djokovic

Novak is better everywhere but clay. And his resume is better everywhere but slam count. It's crazy to put Nadal ahead at this point IMO.

Like RF-18 said, Nadal is better at one tournament. Every other stat is in Novak's favour.

 

[GabeT]

At USO nadal is 2-1 h2h in finals. That is crucial, Becker considers is 1-2 losing W final record to Edberg to be his biggest disappointment!!!

The point is Nadal has won the lot, Novak hasnt. Not yet, but i sincerely hope he gets FO this year.

Both are ahead of federer though in reality now.

Completely, 100%, totally and absolutely irrelevant. Unless they were to meet in all the finals they play this statistic means nothing.

 

[GabeT]

We could just as easily do

Premier titles
Outdoor HC: 8-3 Djokovic
Clay: 0 - 9 Nadal
Grass: 3 - 2 Djokovic
Indoor HC: 5 - 0 Djokovic

Novak is better everywhere but clay. And his resume is better everywhere but slam count. It's crazy to put Nadal ahead at this point IMO.

Oh, I agree. Nadal's claim to being better than Nole is based on a single tournament, the FO.

 

[Rusty Shackleford]

Looking at the most important criteria:

Slams: 11 - 14 Nadal
WTFs: 5 - 0 Djokovic
Big 5 titles: 16 - 14 Djokovic
Holes in resume: Roland Garros (clay) and WTF (indoor) TIe
Weeks at #1: 193 - 141 Djokovic
YE#1: 4 - 3 Djokovic
Masters: 28 - 27 Djokovic
H2H: 25:23 Djokovic
Most dominant season: 2015, 2011 > any of Nadal's seasons Djokovic

I also think that Novak has shown more well roundedness, dominating both outdoor and indoor HC, winning 3 Wimbledons, and defending titles on every surface.

Novak's resume is also growing. He could easily erase that hole in his resume in a few months and then the only advantage Nadal would have in this comparison is 2 slams. Novak would be ahead in every other possible metric.

I said last year that, as soon as Novak took the lead in Big 5 titles, h2h, and masters count, I would consider him greater than Nadal.

And now that's true. Novak > Nadal all time IMO.

Weak Era.

 

[Rusty Shackleford]

Oh, I agree. Nadal's claim to being better than Nole is based on a single tournament, the FO.

Nadal has a better record except in the AO up to the beginning of the weakest era ever. Favorable H2H at the USO, and came close to winning their only AO match.

 

[Pablo1989]

Holes in resume: Roland Garros (clay) and WTF (indoor) TIe

Lol

 

[GabeT]

Nadal has a better record except in the AO up to the beginning of the weakest era ever. Favorable H2H at the USO, and came close to winning their only AO match.

Once again, H2H is a useless statistic unless they meet in all the tournaments. Which they don't.

 

[Rusty Shackleford]

Once again, H2H is a useless statistic unless they meet in all the tournaments. Which they don't.

The fact they didn't meet in all the tournaments is a benefit to the player with the worse H2H, because if they had met in all tournaments, he would have lost some of those (fundamental logic). Unless all you care about is the H2H.

 

[Rusty Shackleford]

Yes... superior competition like his USO draws. Biggest competition on clay, where he won 70% of his titles, being guys who strongly prefer HC and grass. Riiiiight.

You are still sore about AO09? Or is it Wim08?

 

[GabeT]

The fact they didn't meet in all the tournaments is a benefit to the player with the worse H2H, because if they had met in all tournaments, he would have lost some of those (fundamental logic). Unless all you care about is the H2H.

H2H is a useless statistic

 

[prostaff1]

Nadal and Djokovic both > Federer. But for each other they would have smashed all of federers records. Federer's record against both is appalling for a so callled ATG.

Career slam is the holy grail..only 4 men have it, all of whom are universally acknowledged as ATG by everyone.

Ummm...why a 'so called ATG', if universally acknowledged by everyone? Your words.

Secondly, 17<14 and certainly 17<11

Nadal not even top two with weeks at # 1. And ZERO WTF...can't compete against the big boys on a fast 'sur- face, no?'

T R O L L in Spanish is still 'trol'

 

[TheFifthSet]

Yes, IMO Djokovic is greater than Nadal. I had my doubts before today but after his 28th master Djokovic is the greater player IMV. You can't ignore all these stats and give nadal the edge based on ONE tournament.

I can. Nadal still has the edge. Highly doubt it will be for much longer, but he still does.

Also OP, a missing RG is a much bigger void in the C.V than a WTF.

 

[Rusty Shackleford]

H2H is a useless statistic

What's really useless is being a weak era champion.

 

[GabeT]

What's really useless is being a weak era champion.

Gotta be honest with you, TC is a better troll

 

[Rusty Shackleford]

Gotta be honest with you, TC is a better troll

Who is TC?

Also, I'm not really trying to troll, but I'm a little annoyed. I understand Djokovic fans being happy. But at least be a little impartial and accept that the current state of tennis is absolute crap.

 

[WhiskeyEE]

Who is TC?

Also, I'm not really trying to troll, but I'm a little annoyed. I understand Djokovic fans being happy. But at least be a little impartial and accept that the current state of tennis is absolute crap.

tennis_commentator

 

[Deleted member 743561]

Pretty much agree. There was a moment about a year ago where it became shockingly clear that Nadal was going to definitively drop a peg. Djok initially turned the tables on Nadal back in '11... but then he kept it up. I would take Djok's career in a heartbeat over Nadal's, at this point.

Speaking of heartbeats, an EKG readout reflects Nadal's career arc pretty accurately. Wicked rollercoaster of peaks and valleys.

 

[Rusty Shackleford]

The equation is quite simple: Old Federer + Washed up Nadal + Broken Back Murray = GOAT Djokovic.

Kudos to Djokovic for persevering and staying healthy while the rest of the top players became old or infirm. But still...