Djokovic vs Safin : Who is better?

[metsman]

Thread is about level of play for two specific runs, but many not reading apparently

Also comparing Safin to Soderling just shows a fundamental gap in knowledge.

 

[metsman]

We should trust the esteemed Talk Tennis commentariat circa 2011 here. It seems that at the time, most said Safin was better. They saw Djokovic in 2011, the same as we all did. We shouldn't apply our 2024 perspective here, even though every fiber of my being and 13 additional years of studying tennis tells me that Djokovic would win 6-1, 6-3, 6-0, due to the massive hindsight bias.

 

[RS]

Also comparing Safin to Soderling just shows a fundamental gap in knowledge.

Sod RG 10 QF vs Fed RG 09 SF who wins?

 

[metsman]

Sod RG 10 QF vs Fed RG 09 SF who wins?

Considering 2010 Fed could have won in 5 (or even 4) if he was just a bit better, and Soderling isn't as well rounded a threat as Delpo, easy Fed in 5. Also, consider that Soderling didn't start that well against Fed in either 09 and 10, and Delpo started out like a house on fire, Fed might have more of a chance to get it in a groove and not need 5.

Soderling is a great player against B tier opponents who give him time and can't make him change directions, but against better opponents his movement simply isn't good enough even relative to other big guys like Berdych or Delpo much less overall. Safin is one of the best baseline offensive movers ever regardless of height, and is by far the best defensive mover ever out of any tall guy. Obviously then we can get into feel, compact stroke production, etc. Just a joke to put those two in the same sentence.

 

[NatF]

We should trust the esteemed Talk Tennis commentariat circa 2011 here. It seems that at the time, most said Safin was better. They saw Djokovic in 2011, the same as we all did. We shouldn't apply our 2024 perspective here, even though every fiber of my being and 13 additional years of studying tennis tells me that Djokovic would win 6-1, 6-3, 6-0, due to the massive hindsight bias.

Djokovic beating legends like Tsitsipas in 2023 show that his 2011 version would beat 2005 Safin.

 

[RS]

Considering 2010 Fed could have won in 5 (or even 4) if he was just a bit better, and Soderling isn't as well rounded a threat as Delpo, easy Fed in 5. Also, consider that Soderling didn't start that well against Fed in either 09 and 10, and Delpo started out like a house on fire, Fed might have more of a chance to get it in a groove and not need 5.

Soderling is a great player against B tier opponents who give him time and can't make him change directions, but against better opponents his movement simply isn't good enough even relative to other big guys like Berdych or Delpo much less overall. Safin is one of the best baseline offensive movers ever regardless of height, and is by far the best defensive mover ever out of any tall guy. Obviously then we can get into feel, compact stroke production, etc. Just a joke to put those two in the same sentence.

Safin USO 00 vs Fed USO 07?

 

[SonnyT]

Djokovic ranked 1st in all-time winning percentages, .9% greater than the second, Nadal. Nineteenths of a percent was more than four times the difference between any two contingents among the top 7.

I don't know where Safin ranked, but certainly not within the top 20!

Safin USO 00 vs any Federer was certainly closer!

 

[TMF]

I watched Sampras and Agassi play in their primes. The question is, did you? Once again, you have nothing substantial to add to a discussion. Just more blanket statements like because I'm a Djokovic fan, I didn't start watching tennis until 2011 (which is a huge laugh and bogus); or that he never won on RA and imply he couldn't, which is actually false since he won Vienna in 2007, which is played on what hardcourt surface Mr. "tennis scholar"? Like RA would have been a thorn in his side when he's won on every surface and condition available.

You will stick to eye test and subjective arguments and steer clear of actual objective stats because they tell a story you don't want to believe. The likes of you will say anything to make Federer's rivals seem more superior than Djokovic's, and when that's not enough you will go even as far to even say they are superior to Djokovic himself.

Of course I did. You're telling me you're not a Nole fan? Base on the your posting history, I see you as a biased Nole fan. Posting numbers by copy/paste from wiki is not really a substantial to a discussion, lol. A kindergarten can easily do that. Djoker fans don't watch tennis. I mean they say Federer peak was in the CIE, naive enough to believe Federer say his best tennis was in his 30s, no idea how good was Gonzo in 2007 AO, courts were playing relative faster in the early 2000s, there's a silly thread:"does Wilander deserve any slams?" The list goes on. I meant to say Djokovic never won AO on Rebound Ace, his first AO was on plexicushion against a mono Fed in 2008. You assumed that it wouldn't matter whether if it's RA or plexicushion, yeah like he was able to adapt on blue clay, lol.

Yeah, I stick to watching tennis(eye test) and you and your comrades can stick to starring at stats on wiki. Observation is wayyyyy more insightful and numbers, especially without context.
Pot calling the kettle black. Djoker fanboy are in no position to call out other since they say anything to make their idol the best and GOAT(which is totally subjective). You think looking at stats is superior over observation then that's your opinion but I disagree. I'll end it here now and will not going back with forth with you anymore

 

[JoJoHackshow]

I love, love, love Djokovic-- but Safin had the higher peak

 

[NoleFam]

Of course I did. You're telling me you're not a Nole fan? Base on the your posting history, I see you as a biased Nole fan. Posting numbers by copy/paste from wiki is not really a substantial to a discussion, lol. A kindergarten can easily do that. Djoker fans don't watch tennis. I mean they say Federer peak was in the CIE, naive enough to believe Federer say his best tennis was in his 30s, no idea how good was Gonzo in 2007 AO, courts were playing relative faster in the early 2000s, there's a silly thread:"does Wilander deserve any slams?" The list goes on. I meant to say Djokovic never won AO on Rebound Ace, his first AO was on plexicushion against a mono Fed in 2008. You assumed that it wouldn't matter whether if it's RA or plexicushion, yeah like he was able to adapt on blue clay, lol.

Yeah, I stick to watching tennis(eye test) and you and your comrades can stick to starring at stats on wiki. Observation is wayyyyy more insightful and numbers, especially without context.
Pot calling the kettle black. Djoker fanboy are in no position to call out other since they say anything to make their idol the best and GOAT(which is totally subjective). You think looking at stats is superior over observation then that's your opinion but I disagree. I'll end it here now and will not going back with forth with you anymore

Of course I'm a Djokovic fan and that's like a "duh" question. Your generalization is played out and so are your creative grievances. I don't speak for other Djokovic fan's opinions because rude awakening, we don't all have the same views. Your crediblity is shot. So now all of a sudden, you don't care about numbers or stats but you're same poster who posted stuff like this for years:

if, but, woulda, shoulda and the rest of the speculations are worthless.

In the end it's the numbers that matters.

17>14
302>141
6>0
5>3
84>64

I disagree @mightyrick. Subjective opinion are based on personal feeling. Unlike stats, it's an objective opinion that can't be disputed. Number of Wimbledon titles, finals, total grass titles, streaks/records and other stats are the best way to rank the players.

So quite a bit of projection here since you go wherever the wind blows and will say anything to maintain the idea of Federer being the GOAT or above everybody else. Since he doesn't have the numbers anymore, now it's all about eye test and subjective opinions you once were against. How about a little self-awareness tennis scholar?

 

[Third Serve]

We should trust the esteemed Talk Tennis commentariat circa 2011 here. It seems that at the time, most said Safin was better. They saw Djokovic in 2011, the same as we all did. We shouldn't apply our 2024 perspective here, even though every fiber of my being and 13 additional years of studying tennis tells me that Djokovic would win 6-1, 6-3, 6-0, due to the massive hindsight bias.

liked for commentariat

 

[Third Serve]

It is kind of interesting how hindsight can affect a discussion like this. Obviously the posters back in 2011 had no real idea of the player Djokovic would eventually become and evaluated the AO win pretty much on its own merits.

I disagree with the general conclusion and think 2011 Djokovic had it in him to beat Safin (sure wouldn’t be easy though), but I also don’t like the idea of projecting Novak’s future successes back to older matches. Whether he would go on to win 20 Slams or none at all shouldn’t really factor into how well he played on this particular instance. Your later reputation shouldn’t precede yourself.

 

[nolefam_2024]

What kind of bs excuse is this ^

On the other hand, Murray fans say sinner will lose to peak Murray using all the LEGACY points Murray earned playing 10+ years tennis.

It's simple. Djokovic had 4 3 slams years. The safin guy in his life never came close to winning 2 slams a season. Dude he never even reached 2 finals in same season. During Weakest era of tennis, not by my opinion but by every metric possible in tennis.

Is this your God.

Fed fell to him it's fed's fault. Not on us.

 

[nolefam_2024]

Past is always glorified like it was all gold then. No issues whatsoever.

 

[BorgTheGOAT]

Of course I did. You're telling me you're not a Nole fan? Base on the your posting history, I see you as a biased Nole fan. Posting numbers by copy/paste from wiki is not really a substantial to a discussion, lol. A kindergarten can easily do that. Djoker fans don't watch tennis. I mean they say Federer peak was in the CIE, naive enough to believe Federer say his best tennis was in his 30s, no idea how good was Gonzo in 2007 AO, courts were playing relative faster in the early 2000s, there's a silly thread:"does Wilander deserve any slams?" The list goes on. I meant to say Djokovic never won AO on Rebound Ace, his first AO was on plexicushion against a mono Fed in 2008. You assumed that it wouldn't matter whether if it's RA or plexicushion, yeah like he was able to adapt on blue clay, lol.

Yeah, I stick to watching tennis(eye test) and you and your comrades can stick to starring at stats on wiki. Observation is wayyyyy more insightful and numbers, especially without context.
Pot calling the kettle black. Djoker fanboy are in no position to call out other since they say anything to make their idol the best and GOAT(which is totally subjective). You think looking at stats is superior over observation then that's your opinion but I disagree. I'll end it here now and will not going back with forth with you anymore

Out of all the absurd arguments you give, the one with the blue clay takes the prize. To believe that a sample size of n=1 gives any kind of indication on how players would adapt shows such a laughable lack of knowledge on basic statistics. But yeah grasping at straws I would say.

 

[Third Serve]

What kind of bs excuse is this ^

On the other hand, Murray fans say sinner will lose to peak Murray using all the LEGACY points Murray earned playing 10+ years tennis.

Hey if you're going to reply to me, quote me directly.

Murray fans would be wrong to do so. Whether or not Murray was a highly successful player for ten years doesn't really factor into peak discussions. His impressive victories at Wimbledon and the Olympics in 2012 are what you should point to if you want to highlight his grass prowess, and of course you'd look at hard court matches like AO 2012 SF where he pushed a strong Djokovic to the brink or the US Open 2008 SF (or was it QF?) where he destroyed Nadal.

The rest of your comment is irrelevant noise and doesn't directly refute the points I have made, so I've cut it out.

 

[nolefam_2024]

Hey if you're going to reply to me, quote me directly.

Murray fans would be wrong to do so. Whether or not Murray was a highly successful player for ten years doesn't really factor into peak discussions. His impressive victories at Wimbledon and the Olympics in 2012 are what you should point to if you want to highlight his grass prowess, and of course you'd look at hard court matches like AO 2012 SF where he pushed a strong Djokovic to the brink or the US Open 2008 SF (or was it QF?) where he destroyed Nadal.

The rest of your comment is irrelevant noise and doesn't directly refute the points I have made, so I've cut it out.

Same with safin fans

Past can't glorify for failures. Safin is a failure compared to Djokovic even in 2011.

 

[thrust]

The question would be easier to answer if it was "who is more overrated?"

A player who wins 24 slams and has winning H-H vs Fedal, is overrated? You cannot be serious- LOL!

 

[RS]

Safin USO 00 vs Fed USO 07?

need you metsman one more

 

[Pheasant]

Yeah, not only was Mac beating Hall of Fame legends, but he was absolutely murdering them.

One stat guru posted % of points won. I need to find it. But it was something yo the effect that 1984 Mac win about the same percentage of points vs the top-20 as 2006 Fed won against players ranked outside the top-20. That is absolutely unthinkable. I will dig it up, since I am probably using some hyperbole there. But it was unreal

Courtesy of @King_olaf_the_hairy This poster was kind enough lookup stats for 1984 Mac vs 2005 Federer vs 1979 Borg:

I took a deep dive into the UTS stats and came up with the following numbers:

	Matches won vs top 5​	Sets won pct vs top 5​	Games won pct vs top 5​	Games won pct vs players outside top 10​
Iceman	17-3 vs Connors, Gerulaitis, McEnroe, Tanner​	33-10 (76.7%)​	305-208 (59.5%)​	988-503 (66.2%)​
Superbrat	15-1 vs Connors, Lendl, Wilander​	39-9 (81.25%)​	273-157 (63.5%)​	817-396 (67.4%)​
Basel Dazzle	6-2 vs Hewitt, Nadal, Roddick, Safin​	19-8 (70.4%)​	154-128 (54.5%)​	1038-645 (61.7%)​

I already believed JMac's year was better because (a) he was more dominant, and (b) his top 5 opposition was the toughest. But if that's not enough for you, take in those numbers in red in the chart above.

Against "journeymen" players outside the top ten, Federer won a lower percentage of games than McEnroe did against Connors, Lendl, and Wilander.

 

[nolefam_2024]

This is amazing. 15-1 incredible. No one can match it post 1973 when the ranking was made.

 

[Pheasant]

This is amazing. 15-1 incredible. No one can match it post 1973 when the ranking was made.

He won a higher percentage of games vs the top-5(63.5%) than 2005 Federer did against players ranked outside the top-10(61.7%). Also, 9 sets lost in 16 matches vs top-5 players is absolutely ludicrous.

 

[nolefam_2024]

He won a higher percentage of games vs the top-5(63.5%) than 2005 Federer did against players ranked outside the top-10(61.7%). Also, 9 sets lost in 16 matches vs top-5 players is absolutely ludicrous.

63.5 percentage vs top 5 is unbelievable.

I can only imagine someone like sviatek can pull this off in today's game if she skips both Australia and Wimbledon.

 

[Pheasant]

63.5 percentage vs top 5 is unbelievable.

I can only imagine someone like sviatek can pull this off in today's game if she skips both Australia and Wimbledon.

Maybe if we only include her clay stats. Let's see what she did vs top-5 on clay the last couple of years:

Swiatek vs top-5 on clay
2024: 4-1 record: 115 games played, won 66 games won, 49 games lost, .574 winning pct.
2023: 2-1 record: 49 games played, won 27 games won, 22 games lost, .551 winning pct

I agree that she should do this at some point on clay. But the sample size will be tiny compared to Mac's 430 games played in 1984.

The closest that I can find with a decent sample size is 2008 Nadal on clay only vs top-5

2008 Nadal vs top-5 on clay only: 8-0 record, 124 games won out of 199 games=.623 winning pct. This is still lower than Mac's .635, which was across 4 surfaces; not just 1.

1979 Borg vs top-5 on clay only: 4-0 record, 60 games won out of 80 played=.750 winning pct. To be fair, this is a very small sample size.

 

[SonnyT]

I love, love, love Djokovic-- but Safin had the higher peak

At his peak, did Safin win 1, or zero, slam?

 

[nolefam_2024]

Maybe if we only include her clay stats. Let's see what she did vs top-5 on clay the last couple of years:

Swiatek vs top-5 on clay
2024: 4-1 record: 115 games played, won 66 games won, 49 games lost, .574 winning pct.
2023: 2-1 record: 49 games played, won 27 games won, 22 games lost, .551 winning pct

I agree that she should do this at some point on clay. But the sample size will be tiny compared to Mac's 430 games played in 1984.

The closest that I can find with a decent sample size is 2008 Nadal on clay only vs top-5

2008 Nadal vs top-5 on clay only: 8-0 record, 124 games won out of 199 games=.623 winning pct. This is still lower than Mac's .635, which was across 4 surfaces; not just 1.

1979 Borg vs top-5 on clay only: 4-0 record, 60 games won out of 80 played=.750 winning pct. To be fair, this is a very small sample size.

This is what I would call a god tier.

 

[TMF]

Out of all the absurd arguments you give, the one with the blue clay takes the prize. To believe that a sample size of n=1 gives any kind of indication on how players would adapt shows such a laughable lack of knowledge on basic statistics. But yeah grasping at straws I would say.

There's no evidence that Djokovic would have been equally successful on RA as much on plexiscushion. NoleFam blatantly insinuated RA wouldn't make a dfiference isn't absurd, but anyone who question it is absurd ??
So Becker is absurd because he doesn't believe Djokovic wouldn't fare well in a fast, serve/volley environment. LOL

Djokovic couldn't adapt on blue clay and threaten to boycott Triac's tournament if the surface remains the same in the future. That's the true story. You can say n=1 all you want, atleast I have something to back it up but NoleFam has nothing !

 

[BauerAlmeida]

Of course I did. You're telling me you're not a Nole fan? Base on the your posting history, I see you as a biased Nole fan. Posting numbers by copy/paste from wiki is not really a substantial to a discussion, lol. A kindergarten can easily do that. Djoker fans don't watch tennis. I mean they say Federer peak was in the CIE, naive enough to believe Federer say his best tennis was in his 30s, no idea how good was Gonzo in 2007 AO, courts were playing relative faster in the early 2000s, there's a silly thread:"does Wilander deserve any slams?" The list goes on. I meant to say Djokovic never won AO on Rebound Ace, his first AO was on plexicushion against a mono Fed in 2008. You assumed that it wouldn't matter whether if it's RA or plexicushion, yeah like he was able to adapt on blue clay, lol.

He also never won it on grass. Or never won the USO on har-tru. Who cares lol.

Yeah, I stick to watching tennis(eye test) and you and your comrades can stick to starring at stats on wiki. Observation is wayyyyy more insightful and numbers, especially without context.
Pot calling the kettle black. Djoker fanboy are in no position to call out other since they say anything to make their idol the best and GOAT(which is totally subjective). You think looking at stats is superior over observation then that's your opinion but I disagree. I'll end it here now and will not going back with forth with you anymore

Weren't you constantly spamming a list of Federer's statistics to show he was the GOAT? Of course, when statistics were on his side.

 

[BorgTheGOAT]

Weren't you constantly spamming a list of Federer's statistics to show he was the GOAT? Of course, when statistics were on his side.

LOL. Exactly. This is the icing on the cake.

 

[TMF]

He also never won it on grass. Or never won the USO on har-tru. Who cares lol.

You completely missed the point.

Weren't you constantly spamming a list of Federer's statistics to show he was the GOAT? Of course, when statistics were on his side.

That was way before the crappy playing field in the CIE. The era was lack of depth and strength that 3 old(especially Federer) past prime players managed to win 23 slams combined, while the rest of the 90s born only managed to win 3!

 

[BorgTheGOAT]

Djokovic couldn't adapt on blue clay and threaten to boycott Triac's tournament if the surface remains the same in the future. That's the true story. You can say n=1 all you want, atleast I have something to back it up but NoleFam has nothing !

Again, one tournament says basically nothing. If they had made blue clay regularly, he likely would eventually have adapted. Had they changed Wimbledon away from grass in 2002 would you also say Federer would never have adapted to grass.

 

[SonnyT]

24-2