Djokovic was an ATG beating machine at 19-20 as well as at 36-37

[BauerAlmeida]

But why didn't he win more slams at his physical peak? The supposed GOAT won 'only' 3 slams in 3 years, why?

We can also ask why Federer won ONE between AO 2010 and AO 2017. One in SEVEN years.

Or why Nadal also "only" won one per year in 2011, 2012 and 2009 (or 2014 and 2007 if you prefer)


Djokovic had a bad stretch mentally in that period, wasting many opportunities he should have won.
He was still dominating the M1000s and YEC and was still making SF and F at most slams. He just had that poor mental period, before that he had great numbers from AO 2011 to AO 2012 and right after as well, from Wimbledon 2014 to RG 2016. Just a poor period from USO 2012 to RG 2014, nothing to write home about, all players have their bad moments.

 

[GoatNo1]

Didn't he win fewer slams than Nadal from 2012-2014? How can he then be considered the alpha in that period?

becouse the slams are not everything. end period 12-14 is cherry picked just between 11 and 15 that are in top3 best seasons in modern tennis!

i always said that the most important is YE#1 that is at least as important as slam. just no1 means you are the best not the slam. slam means you are the best at that particular tournament. rafa was best just in 2013 not in 12 and 14 (he was not even second best those years)!

for me it was always:
YE#1=50 weeks at no1=slam=100 points
WTF=OG=40p
master=20p
slam F=15p
MM=5p
CGS=GM=100p

rafa vs nole 12-14:	no1e	rafa
YE#1	2	1
ATP rankings (average ranking)	1, 2, 1 (average= 1,3)	4, 1, 3 (average ranking= 2,7)
ITF champ	3	0
ATP points	36540	26555
slams	3	4
slam finals	8	6
WTF	3	0
masters	10	8
big titles	16	12
MM titles	4	6
all titles	20	18
W%	87,9%	87,3%
h2h	6	7

so nole was no1 in average while rafa was no3 in average. nole won 10K more points. 16 vs 12 big titles. 1 Y#1+3 WTF+2 M+2 slam Fs >> 1 slam+2 MM. in my points it is (100+3x40+2x20+2x15=290 vs 100+2x5=110)!

as i said, rafa was better just in 2013 not in that whole period. by your logic nole was alpha from big bang until now because he has most slams in that period!

 

[PilotPete]

We can also ask why Federer won ONE between AO 2010 and AO 2017. One in SEVEN years.

Or why Nadal also "only" won one per year in 2011, 2012 and 2009 (or 2014 and 2007 if you prefer)


Djokovic had a bad stretch mentally in that period, wasting many opportunities he should have won.
He was still dominating the M1000s and YEC and was still making SF and F at most slams. He just had that poor mental period, before that he had great numbers from AO 2011 to AO 2012 and right after as well, from Wimbledon 2014 to RG 2016. Just a poor period from USO 2012 to RG 2014, nothing to write home about, all players have their bad moments.

That was after Fed's physical prime which typically occurs in the mid-20s. For Djokovic it happened DURING his physical prime.

Does this poster understand basic differences or is he just trolling? That's another time where he has appeared to play really obtuse.

 

[PilotPete]

becouse the slams are not everything. end period 12-14 is cherry picked just between 11 and 15 that are in top3 best seasons in modern tennis!

i always said that the most important is YE#1 that is at least as important as slam. just no1 means you are the best not the slam. slam means you are the best at that particular tournament. rafa was best just in 2013 not in 12 and 14 (he was not even second best those years)!

for me it was always:
YE#1=50 weeks at no1=slam=100 points
WTF=OG=40p
master=20p
slam F=15p
MM=5p
CGS=GM=100p

rafa vs nole 12-14:	no1e	rafa
YE#1	2	1
ATP rankings (average ranking)	1, 2, 1 (average= 1,3)	4, 1, 3 (average ranking= 2,7)
ITF champ	3	0
ATP points	36540	26555
slams	3	4
slam finals	8	6
WTF	3	0
masters	10	8
big titles	16	12
MM titles	4	6
all titles	20	18
W%	87,9%	87,3%
h2h	6	7

so nole was no1 in average while rafa was no3 in average. nole won 10K more points. 16 vs 12 big titles. 1 Y#1+3 WTF+2 M+2 slam Fs >> 1 slam+2 MM. in my points it is (100+3x40+2x20+2x15=290 vs 100+2x5=110)!

as i said, rafa was better just in 2013 not in that whole period. by your logic nole was alpha from big bang until now because he has most slams in that period!

Yes, slams are not everything, but they are the most important factor. Why did Djokovic do relatively poorly at the most important tournaments during that time?

 

[GoatNo1]

Yes, slams are not everything, but they are the most important factor. Why did Djokovic do relatively poorly at the most important tournaments during that time?

i already answered. but if you not like that answer so i can do a short one. he was busy with doing other great things as winning 3 WTFs in a row. being YE#1 (what is the most important factor according to 3 previous GOATs, nole, fed and sampras), winning masters and slams of course. 3 slams in 3 years is not so poor as you want to present it. it was enough to help him break that record too. without those 3 he would not have it. would he? he won the most of everything despite all obstacles he had in his career!

 

[BauerAlmeida]

That was after Fed's physical prime which typically occurs in the mid-20s. For Djokovic it happened DURING his physical prime.

Does this poster understand basic differences or is he just trolling? That's another time where he has appeared to play really obtuse.

And you also don't seem to understand the difference between 3 slams in 3 years and 1 slam in 7 years, do you?

 

[BauerAlmeida]

i already answered. but if you not like that answer so i can do a short one. he was busy with doing other great things as winning 3 WTFs in a row. being YE#1 (what is the most important factor according to 3 previous GOATs, nole, fed and sampras), winning masters and slams of course. 3 slams in 3 years is not so poor as you want to present it. it was enough to help him break that record too. without those 3 he would not have it. would he? he won the most of everything despite all obstacles he had in his career!

Yep, Nadal and Sampras had several one-slam years in their primes as well.

 

[Aabye5]

19-20 years old:

2007 Miami quarterfinals defeated Nadal
2007 Canada semifinal d. Nadal
2007 Canada final d. Federer
2008 Australian Open semifinal d. Federer
2008 Indian Wells semifinal d. Nadal

36-37 years old:

2023 French Open semifinal d. Alcaraz
2023 Wimbledon semifinal d. Sinner
2023 Cincinnati final d. Alcaraz
2023 YEC semifinal d. Alcaraz
2023 YEC final d. Sinner
2024 Olympics Gold final d. Alcaraz
2025 Australian Open quarterfinal d. Alcaraz

GOAT longevity.

2007 Miami to 2025 Australian Open, 18 years of ATG beating excellence

That's why his best years were arguably well before 2014-2015, even if he had better results later on.

 

[TennisGrandpA]

Federer beat GOAT candidates from 2001 till 2019 - 18 years

Sampras - 2001 Wimbledon
Djoko - 2019 ATP Finals

Now that is real excellence

Fed didn’t beat any prime ATG at 20 , he was busy losing to Non ATG players at that age while Novak was busy beating prime GOAT tier players at 19-20

 

[PilotPete]

i already answered. but if you not like that answer so i can do a short one. he was busy with doing other great things as winning 3 WTFs in a row. being YE#1 (what is the most important factor according to 3 previous GOATs, nole, fed and sampras), winning masters and slams of course. 3 slams in 3 years is not so poor as you want to present it. it was enough to help him break that record too. without those 3 he would not have it. would he? he won the most of everything despite all obstacles he had in his career!

Or maybe his peak is just not that good when the competition is decent?

 

[PilotPete]

And you also don't seem to understand the difference between 3 slams in 3 years and 1 slam in 7 years, do you?

We are talking about Djokovic not anyone else. 3 slams in 3 years is relatively poor when it's sandwiched by two seasons with 3 slams per year.

 

[junkieballer]

Or maybe his peak is just not that good when the competition is decent?

Best seasons in the Big4 era (2008-16):

1) Djokovic 2015 (3 Slams, YEC, 6 Masters)
2) Djokovic 2011 (3 Slams, 5 Masters)

 

[big ted]

Gasquet and monfils had some good wins at 19/20 and 36/37 so Djokovic is in good company

 

[GoatNo1]

Or maybe his peak is just not that good when the competition is decent?

maybe not, but he still was alpha in the strongest era ever and had the highest peak of all time! worth nole-slam and 16950 ATP points (17110 in new format)! that is 1,5K more points that next best player had!

and guess who was top5 at that moment?

rank	player	age	points
1	Novak Djokovic	29	16,950
2	Andy Murray	29	8,915
3	Roger Federer	34	6,655
4	Rafael Nadal	30	5,405
5	Stan Wawrinka	31	5,035

i would call it pretty decent top5 players!

or top10

6	Kei Nishikori	26	4,290
7	Dominic Thiem	22	3,105
8	Tomas Berdych	30	3,030
9	Milos Raonic	25	2,965
10	Richard Gasquet	29	2,905

ATP Rankings | PIF ATP Rankings (Singles) | ATP Tour | Tennis | ATP Tour | Tennis

Official PIF ATP Rankings (Singles) showing a list of top players in men's tennis rankings on the ATP Tour, featuring Novak Djokovic, Rafael Nadal, Jannik Sinner, Carlos Alcaraz and more.

www.atptour.com

 

[GoatNo1]

now, compare those players with top5 when fed had highest points of his career!

1 CH	Roger Federer (no1e)	25	8370 (15495 in 2016 system)
2	Rafael Nadal (muzza)	20	4470
3 CH	Nikolay Davydenko (fed)	25	2825
4 CH	James Blake (rafa)	26	2530
5	Ivan Ljubicic (wawa)	27	2495

fallowing with: roddick, robredo, nalbandian, ancic and gonzales in top10

 

[PilotPete]

Best seasons in the Big4 era (2008-16):

1) Djokovic 2015 (3 Slams, YEC, 6 Masters)
2) Djokovic 2011 (3 Slams, 5 Masters)

Incorrect. Best season was 2009 then 2012.

 

[PilotPete]

maybe not, but he still was alpha in the strongest era ever and had the highest peak of all time! worth nole-slam and 16950 ATP points (17110 in new format)! that is 1,5K more points that next best player had!

and guess who was top5 at that moment?

rank	player	age	points
1	Novak Djokovic	29	16,950
2	Andy Murray	29	8,915
3	Roger Federer	34	6,655
4	Rafael Nadal	30	5,405
5	Stan Wawrinka	31	5,035

i would call it pretty decent top5 players!

or top10

6	Kei Nishikori	26	4,290
7	Dominic Thiem	22	3,105
8	Tomas Berdych	30	3,030
9	Milos Raonic	25	2,965
10	Richard Gasquet	29	2,905

ATP Rankings | PIF ATP Rankings (Singles) | ATP Tour | Tennis | ATP Tour | Tennis

Official PIF ATP Rankings (Singles) showing a list of top players in men's tennis rankings on the ATP Tour, featuring Novak Djokovic, Rafael Nadal, Jannik Sinner, Carlos Alcaraz and more.

www.atptour.com

He can't be the alpha when Nadal won more slams from 2012-2014. Sure Djokovic won the most when the competition became extremely weak in 2015.

 

[junkieballer]

Incorrect. Best season was 2009 then 2012.

I meant best season by a player

 

[GoatNo1]

He can't be the alpha when Nadal won more slams from 2012-2014. Sure Djokovic won the most when the competition became extremely weak in 2015.

so rafa was alpha 2012-2014 but nole was alpha 2011-2014 or 2012-2015 or 2003-2026?
or 2000 bc -2026!

ok good! nole alpha since big bang and universums creation! even fed was never alpha because nole has more slams 03-23! it is only one alpha since it is tennis as a sport!

yea i see
week competition with: no1e, muzza, fed, rafa and wawa as top5! (72 slams, 47 in that time)
strong competition with: fed, rafa, denko, blake, ljubo as top5! (42 slams, 11 in that time)
ok!

why alpha rafa who is peer with nole become so weak suddenly? and how alpha player has an average ranking of no3 when another player has average ranking of no1?

alpha rafa 2012: no4, 6690p (6230 points lesser than no1e!)
alpha rafa 2014: no3, 6835p (4525 points lesser than no1e)
weak rafa after RG16: no4, 5405p (1285 points lesser than alpha rafa in 2012)

weak nole 2012: no1, 12920p (6230 points more than alpha rafa)
weak nole 2014: no1, 11360p (4525 points more than alpha rafa)
weak nole in weak era (nole, muzza, fed, rafa and wawa as top5) after RG16: no1, 16950p (1455 more points than fed had as most when fed, rafa, denko, blake and ljubo was top5)

alpha rafa 2013: no1 13030p
weak nole 2013: no2 12260p (just 770 less points)

ITF champ award that goes most by slams performance:
alpah rafa 12-14: 0 ITF champ (2013: DNP, W, 1R, W - 4010 points)
weak nole 12-14: 3 ITF champ (2013: W, SF, F, F - 5120 points)

rafa the alpha 12-14 at W (most prestigious slam):
2012: 2R lost to rosol no100!!!!
2013: 1R lost to darcis no135!!!!
2014: 4R lost to kyrgios no144!!!!!

what great alpha was this rafa!

 

[GoatNo1]

in general

fed or rafa wins = wery strong era
nole wins = very weak era

we often hear that when nole get record for most ATP points, after RG16, the field was extremely weak.
at the same time when fed had his best year and highest points (apr 1,5 lesser than noles highest) field was strong.

top5 after RG16 when nole set the record:
1. no1e
2. muzza
3. fed
4. rafa
5. wawa

top5 in 2006 when fed had his highest points:
1. fed
2. rafa
3. denko
4. blake
5. ljubo

all feds finals opponents in strong 2006:
doha: monfils no30 W
AO: baghdatis no54 W
dubai: rafa no2 L
IW: blake no14 W
miami: ljubo no6 W
MC: rafa no2 L
rome: rafa no2 L
RG: rafa no2 L
halle: berdych no15 W
W: rafa no2 W
can: gasquet no51 W
(cinci: muzza no21 L in 2R)
USO: roddick no10 W
tokio: henman no55 W
madrid: gonzales no10 W
basel: gonzales no7 W
WTF: blake no8 W

average ranking of opponents in 12 F W = 21,8 (10 players: monfils, baghdatis, blake x2, ljubo, berdych, rafa, gasquet, roddick, henman, gonzales x2; rafa/big4 - once)
average ranking of opponents in 4 F L = 2 (rafa x4)

all noles finals opponents in weak W15-RG16:
W: fed no2 W
can: muzza no3 L
cinci: fed no3 L
USO. fed no2 W
beijing: rafa no8 W
shanghai: tsonga no15 W
paris: muzza no3 W
WTF: fed no3 W
doha: rafa no5 W
AO: muzza no2 W (fed no3 in SF)
IW: raonic no14 W
miami: nishikori no8 W
(MC: vesely no55 L - 1R)
madrid: muzza no2 W
rome: muzza no3 L
RG: muzza no2 W

average ranking of opponent in 12 F W = 5,5 (6 players: fed x3, rafa x2, tsonga, muzza x4, raonic, nishikori; big4 - 9 times))
average ranking of opponent in 3 F L = 3 (2 players: fed, muzza x2)

 

[PilotPete]

I meant best season by a player

Sure, but that could be because of weak competition, it says nothing about the absolute level of the player. Eg. 2020-2023.

 

[PilotPete]

so rafa was alpha 2012-2014 but nole was alpha 2011-2014 or 2012-2015 or 2003-2026?
or 2000 bc -2026!

ok good! nole alpha since big bang and universums creation! even fed was never alpha because nole has more slams 03-23! it is only one alpha since it is tennis as a sport!

yea i see
week competition with: no1e, muzza, fed, rafa and wawa as top5! (72 slams, 47 in that time)
strong competition with: fed, rafa, denko, blake, ljubo as top5! (42 slams, 11 in that time)
ok!

why alpha rafa who is peer with nole become so weak suddenly? and how alpha player has an average ranking of no3 when another player has average ranking of no1?

alpha rafa 2012: no4, 6690p (6230 points lesser than no1e!)
alpha rafa 2014: no3, 6835p (4525 points lesser than no1e)
weak rafa after RG16: no4, 5405p (1285 points lesser than alpha rafa in 2012)

weak nole 2012: no1, 12920p (6230 points more than alpha rafa)
weak nole 2014: no1, 11360p (4525 points more than alpha rafa)
weak nole in weak era (nole, muzza, fed, rafa and wawa as top5) after RG16: no1, 16950p (1455 more points than fed had as most when fed, rafa, denko, blake and ljubo was top5)

alpha rafa 2013: no1 13030p
weak nole 2013: no2 12260p (just 770 less points)

ITF champ award that goes most by slams performance:
alpah rafa 12-14: 0 ITF champ (2013: DNP, W, 1R, W - 4010 points)
weak nole 12-14: 3 ITF champ (2013: W, SF, F, F - 5120 points)

rafa the alpha 12-14 at W (most prestigious slam):
2012: 2R lost to rosol no100!!!!
2013: 1R lost to darcis no135!!!!
2014: 4R lost to kyrgios no144!!!!!

what great alpha was this rafa!

Sure, if you consider all of time, Nole circumstantially achieved the most, we know that as a fact, so why even try to defend that? It is accepted. My question was why was there a relative dip from 2012-2014? Maybe it was because, the competition was better then and his peak level isn't as good as Federer's. If that is true, then yes Nole achieved the most due to weak competition, but he is far from being the 'BEST' tennis player. Achievements and level don't necessarily correlate.

 

[GoatNo1]

Sure, if you consider all of time, Nole circumstantially achieved the most, we know that as a fact, so why even try to defend that? It is accepted. My question was why was there a relative dip from 2012-2014? Maybe it was because, the competition was better then and his peak level isn't as good as Federer's. If that is true, then yes Nole achieved the most due to weak competition, but he is far from being the 'BEST' tennis player. Achievements and level don't necessarily correlate.

competition was best of all time but he was still alpha. his average ranking was no1 during that period.

his peak level was higher than feds.
his first era was most competative of all time.

nole achieved nole-slam and record high ATP points in the best run of all time: 4 slams, WTF, 5 masters + 3F, 31 top10 wins and 16 top8 wins. dominating all rivals and all surfaces!
and top5 was: nole, nuzza, fed, rafa and wawa!

feds best run that include all tournaments had 1,5K less points: 3 slams (+F), only 19 top10 and 8 top5 wins, was dominate by his main rival 2-4 and did not won a single tournament on clay!
and top5 was: fed, rafa, denko, blake, ljubo!!!!

nole has highest ELO as well!

so noles BOATness and highest peak ever is undisputed! it is nothing that fed has to come with except cope from his fans and very subjective aye tests!!!!


strength of top8
average ELO of top8

% of seeds in finals stages of big events
blue - slam QF
black - masters QF
pink - slam SF (top4)

top8 average number of matches vs top10

as you see, feds era was much weaker than noles first and little bit weaker than noles 2nd. when nole did a points record it was in the strongest era ever. his best season was made in 2nd strongest season ever and in the toughest season ever nole still was best player and both no1 (with 2655 points gap to 2nd best player) and ITF champ!

 

[Razer]

in general

fed or rafa wins = wery strong era
nole wins = very weak era

we often hear that when nole get record for most ATP points, after RG16, the field was extremely weak.
at the same time when fed had his best year and highest points (apr 1,5 lesser than noles highest) field was strong.

top5 after RG16 when nole set the record:
1. no1e
2. muzza
3. fed
4. rafa
5. wawa

top5 in 2006 when fed had his highest points:
1. fed
2. rafa
3. denko
4. blake
5. ljubo

all feds finals opponents in strong 2006:
doha: monfils no30 W
AO: baghdatis no54 W
dubai: rafa no2 L
IW: blake no14 W
miami: ljubo no6 W
MC: rafa no2 L
rome: rafa no2 L
RG: rafa no2 L
halle: berdych no15 W
W: rafa no2 W
can: gasquet no51 W
(cinci: muzza no21 L in 2R)
USO: roddick no10 W
tokio: henman no55 W
madrid: gonzales no10 W
basel: gonzales no7 W
WTF: blake no8 W

average ranking of opponents in 12 F W = 21,8 (10 players: monfils, baghdatis, blake x2, ljubo, berdych, rafa, gasquet, roddick, henman, gonzales x2; rafa/big4 - once)
average ranking of opponents in 4 F L = 2 (rafa x4)

all noles finals opponents in weak W15-RG16:
W: fed no2 W
can: muzza no3 L
cinci: fed no3 L
USO. fed no2 W
beijing: rafa no8 W
shanghai: tsonga no15 W
paris: muzza no3 W
WTF: fed no3 W
doha: rafa no5 W
AO: muzza no2 W (fed no3 in SF)
IW: raonic no14 W
miami: nishikori no8 W
(MC: vesely no55 L - 1R)
madrid: muzza no2 W
rome: muzza no3 L
RG: muzza no2 W

average ranking of opponent in 12 F W = 5,5 (6 players: fed x3, rafa x2, tsonga, muzza x4, raonic, nishikori; big4 - 9 times))
average ranking of opponent in 3 F L = 3 (2 players: fed, muzza x2)

Nole cried on phone to Boris Becker at the end of 2013 because Nadal had overtaken him as rank 1 and caused lot of destruction in 2012-2014 period

It was the great Boris Becker who taught Nole on how to become the alpha, from 2015 Nole remained the alpha, that could be said.

 

[GoatNo1]

Nole cried on phone to Boris Becker at the end of 2013 because Nadal had overtaken him as rank 1 and caused lot of destruction in 2012-2014 period

It was the great Boris Becker who taught Nole on how to become the alpha, from 2015 Nole remained the alpha, that could be said.

i see you have some inside information. good for nole right thing to do. worth GOAThood!

 

[Razer]

i see you have some inside information. good for nole right thing to do. worth GOAThood!

It is not insider information, it was said by Boris Becker himself. Listen to this

Boris Becker is the person who changed everything, I rate Becker as the greatest coach because of this reason.

Djokovic call even surprised me, says Becker

LONDON (Reuters) - Boris Becker said Novak Djokovic approached him to become his head coach the day the Serb lost the world No.1 ranking to Spaniard Rafa Nadal in October this year.

www.sbs.com.au

 

[GoatNo1]

It is not insider information, it was said by Boris Becker himself. Listen to this

Boris Becker is the person who changed everything, I rate Becker as the greatest coach because of this reason.

Djokovic call even surprised me, says Becker

LONDON (Reuters) - Boris Becker said Novak Djokovic approached him to become his head coach the day the Serb lost the world No.1 ranking to Spaniard Rafa Nadal in October this year.

www.sbs.com.au

it was nothing new. nole called goran too. it is not that former players calling around and ask after job. the new thing and real inside information was that he was cried on the phone. as i hear here boris did not said anything about crying. he said that nole said that no2 is not good enough for him. and that is how champions think! and all champions talking about being no1 as a ultimate goal in their prime. not wining another slam. wining slam is nothing compare to no1. it is goal to 2nd tier of players who can catch the fire and maybe win some big title but are not good and consistent enough to be no1!

 

[PilotPete]

competition was best of all time but he was still alpha. his average ranking was no1 during that period.

his peak level was higher than feds.
his first era was most competative of all time.

nole achieved nole-slam and record high ATP points in the best run of all time: 4 slams, WTF, 5 masters + 3F, 31 top10 wins and 16 top8 wins. dominating all rivals and all surfaces!
and top5 was: nole, nuzza, fed, rafa and wawa!

feds best run that include all tournaments had 1,5K less points: 3 slams (+F), only 19 top10 and 8 top5 wins, was dominate by his main rival 2-4 and did not won a single tournament on clay!
and top5 was: fed, rafa, denko, blake, ljubo!!!!

nole has highest ELO as well!

so noles BOATness and highest peak ever is undisputed! it is nothing that fed has to come with except cope from his fans and very subjective aye tests!!!!


strength of top8
average ELO of top8

% of seeds in finals stages of big events
blue - slam QF
black - masters QF
pink - slam SF (top4)

top8 average number of matches vs top10

as you see, feds era was much weaker than noles first and little bit weaker than noles 2nd. when nole did a points record it was in the strongest era ever. his best season was made in 2nd strongest season ever and in the toughest season ever nole still was best player and both no1 (with 2655 points gap to 2nd best player) and ITF champ!

No, his peak level was not higher than Fed's. How do we know? He was absolute peak in 2011, and lost the FO semi to post-peak Fed AND almost lost the USO to post-peak Fed. He was lucky to win the USO semi and it completely depended on Fed choking, not Novak's ability.

So to summarize, at his absolute best level Novak was down match points in 2 of 3 slams to a Fed that was no longer peak. Ergo, peak Fed was get the better of Novak everywhere except possibly AO where it would be close and only if that is played on the AO surface after 2008.

Ergo, Fed's peak is higher than Djokovic's QED.

 

[Incognito]

Didn’t Fed beat Sampras when he was 19?

 

[junkieballer]

Didn’t Fed beat Sampras when he was 19?

And then sucked for 2 years

 

[junkieballer]

No, his peak level was not higher than Fed's. How do we know? He was absolute peak in 2011, and lost the FO semi to post-peak Fed AND almost lost the USO to post-peak Fed. He was lucky to win the USO semi and it completely depended on Fed choking, not Novak's ability.

So to summarize, at his absolute best level Novak was down match points in 2 of 3 slams to a Fed that was no longer peak. Ergo, peak Fed was get the better of Novak everywhere except possibly AO where it would be close and only if that is played on the AO surface after 2008.

Ergo, Fed's peak is higher than Djokovic's QED.

If Federer had a higher peak than Djokovic he would have a 43 matches winning streak beating 8 times Nadal/Djokovic, but he doesn't.

And who cares about peak anyway. This is not track and field. First, peak not measurable, second, the goal in tennis is winning tournaments, not having a high peak. Winning 10 Slams with a 8/10 level Is much better than winning 1 Slam with a 10/10 level.

Even if Novak's peak was 2011 I think he was better from 2014 Bercy to 2016 French Open and from 2018 Wimbledon to 2023 US Open because he was more consistent at Slams.

 

[BorgTheGOAT]

If Federer had a higher peak than Djokovic he would have a 43 matches winning streak beating 8 times Nadal/Djokovic, but he doesn't.

neither did Djokovic.

 

[junkieballer]

neither did Djokovic.

but if Federer is better he would have it

 

[GoatNo1]

No, his peak level was not higher than Fed's. How do we know? He was absolute peak in 2011, and lost the FO semi to post-peak Fed AND almost lost the USO to post-peak Fed. He was lucky to win the USO semi and it completely depended on Fed choking, not Novak's ability.

So to summarize, at his absolute best level Novak was down match points in 2 of 3 slams to a Fed that was no longer peak. Ergo, peak Fed was get the better of Novak everywhere except possibly AO where it would be close and only if that is played on the AO surface after 2008.

Ergo, Fed's peak is higher than Djokovic's QED.

no, noles peak was paris14-RG16 not 2011! he maybe was in physical peak already in 2011 but he improved much in those years and to not name more maturing, experience and rutin!

there is period that he got most ATP points, greatest period of all time in titles, and positive h2h vs all main rivals. and 2015 is in top3 seasons ever in competition strength! statistically proven!

fed had negative h2h vs rafa, catastrophically 7-13 in his own era and 2-4 in his best year! in season when top5 was: himself, rafa, denko, blake and ljuba. compare that with top5 after nole-slam: nole, muzza, fed, rafa, wawa!

looking of all surfaces, conditions and tournaments:

1. 2015-RG16 nole > 2006 fed
2. 15-16 muzza > 06 rafa
3. 15-16 fed > 06 denko
4. 15-16 rafa > 06 blake
5. 15-16 wawa > 06 ljuba

it is not even comparable!

noles result at big tournaments in period paris14-RG16: 5/6 slams (6/6 F), 2/2 WTFs, 10/14 played masters titles (13/14 played finals and 1 master did not played)

datum	tournament	opponent in the final	result
27-10-2014	Paris Masters	raonic	W
09-11-2014	Tour Finals	fed (WO)	W
19-01-2015	Australian Open	muzza	W
12-03-2015	Indian Wells Masters	fed	W
25-03-2015	Miami Masters	muzza	W
12-04-2015	Monte Carlo Masters	berdych	W
10-05-2015	Rome Masters	fed	W
24-05-2015	Roland Garros	wawa	F
29-06-2015	Wimbledon	fed	W
10-08-2015	Canada Masters	muzza	F
16-08-2015	Cincinnati Masters	fed	F
31-08-2015	US Open	fed	W
11-10-2015	Shanghai Masters	tsonga	W
02-11-2015	Paris Masters	muzza	W
15-11-2015	Tour Finals	fed	W
18-01-2016	Australian Open	muzza	W
07-03-2016	Indian Wells Masters	raonic	W
21-03-2016	Miami Masters	nishikori	W
11-04-2016	Monte-Carlo Masters	vesely	R32
02-05-2016	Madrid Masters	muzza	W
09-05-2016	Rome Masters	muzza	F
23-05-2016	Roland Garros	muzza	W

TITLE FINAL HC HCi CC GC

in that period (20 months) he played fed 9+WO times (6+WO-3), rafa 6 times (6-0), muzza 14 times (12-2), wawa 5 times (4-1)! 34+WO meetings and 28+WO wins vs big4+wawa in 20 months. 55 wins vs top10 and 25 top5 wins!

your fed has best peak is based on your subjective filing and has "trust me bror" arguments. noles BOATness is fact based on measurable stats, records, titles, ELO, wins ect... and what other players (as rafa who played them the most) said!

 

[MichaelNadal]

Idk how yall don't get sick of talking about that lanky, spikey haired man. My goodness

 

[BorgTheGOAT]

but if Federer is better he would have it

Well I have already established my view that Djoko's 2011 is the best of all big three seasons due to toughest competition. He could however not hold that level up for 2012/2013, so in the end when discussing peak it is like that:

Best single season: Djokovic 2011​

Best level among consecutive seasons: Fed 2004-2007​

Most undisputed highest level on any surface: Nadal clay​

Apart from that:

Statistical GOAT: Djokovic​

Most versatile Big three among surfaces (including historical ones): Federer​

Who of the big three would have won most had they played under 90s conditions: Federer​

Who would have won most had they played in the 90s itself: Nadal (since he is least affected by the presence of Pete and Andre)​

 

[junkieballer]

Most versatile Big three among surfaces (including historical ones): Federer​

Who of the big three would have won most had they played under 90s conditions: Federer​

Who would have won most had they played in the 90s itself: Nadal (since he is least affected by the presence of Pete and Andre)​

Who knows.

People can't predict future matches, I don't expect them to predict time travel matches: https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...g-the-outcome-of-hypothetical-matches.794419/

 

[PilotPete]

If Federer had a higher peak than Djokovic he would have a 43 matches winning streak beating 8 times Nadal/Djokovic, but he doesn't.

And who cares about peak anyway. This is not track and field. First, peak not measurable, second, the goal in tennis is winning tournaments, not having a high peak. Winning 10 Slams with a 8/10 level Is much better than winning 1 Slam with a 10/10 level.

Even if Novak's peak was 2011 I think he was better from 2014 Bercy to 2016 French Open and from 2018 Wimbledon to 2023 US Open because he was more consistent at Slams.

If Djokovic had a higher peak than Fed he would have more consecutive weeks at #1, but he doesn't. Peak matters, because that is what determines who the actual best player is. Achievements are all based on circumstances, luck, conditions and changes in rules.

 

[PilotPete]

no, noles peak was paris14-RG16 not 2011! he maybe was in physical peak already in 2011 but he improved much in those years and to not name more maturing, experience and rutin!

there is period that he got most ATP points, greatest period of all time in titles, and positive h2h vs all main rivals. and 2015 is in top3 seasons ever in competition strength! statistically proven!

fed had negative h2h vs rafa, catastrophically 7-13 in his own era and 2-4 in his best year! in season when top5 was: himself, rafa, denko, blake and ljuba. compare that with top5 after nole-slam: nole, muzza, fed, rafa, wawa!

looking of all surfaces, conditions and tournaments:

1. 2015-RG16 nole > 2006 fed
2. 15-16 muzza > 06 rafa
3. 15-16 fed > 06 denko
4. 15-16 rafa > 06 blake
5. 15-16 wawa > 06 ljuba

it is not even comparable!

noles result at big tournaments in period paris14-RG16: 5/6 slams (6/6 F), 2/2 WTFs, 10/14 played masters titles (13/14 played finals and 1 master did not played)

datum	tournament	opponent in the final	result
27-10-2014	Paris Masters	raonic	W
09-11-2014	Tour Finals	fed (WO)	W
19-01-2015	Australian Open	muzza	W
12-03-2015	Indian Wells Masters	fed	W
25-03-2015	Miami Masters	muzza	W
12-04-2015	Monte Carlo Masters	berdych	W
10-05-2015	Rome Masters	fed	W
24-05-2015	Roland Garros	wawa	F
29-06-2015	Wimbledon	fed	W
10-08-2015	Canada Masters	muzza	F
16-08-2015	Cincinnati Masters	fed	F
31-08-2015	US Open	fed	W
11-10-2015	Shanghai Masters	tsonga	W
02-11-2015	Paris Masters	muzza	W
15-11-2015	Tour Finals	fed	W
18-01-2016	Australian Open	muzza	W
07-03-2016	Indian Wells Masters	raonic	W
21-03-2016	Miami Masters	nishikori	W
11-04-2016	Monte-Carlo Masters	vesely	R32
02-05-2016	Madrid Masters	muzza	W
09-05-2016	Rome Masters	muzza	F
23-05-2016	Roland Garros	muzza	W

TITLE FINAL HC HCi CC GC

in that period (20 months) he played fed 9+WO times (6+WO-3), rafa 6 times (6-0), muzza 14 times (12-2), wawa 5 times (4-1)! 34+WO meetings and 28+WO wins vs big4+wawa in 20 months. 55 wins vs top10 and 25 top5 wins!

your fed has best peak is based on your subjective filing and has "trust me bror" arguments. noles BOATness is fact based on measurable stats, records, titles, ELO, wins ect... and what other players (as rafa who played them the most) said!

No, even most reasonable Djokobic fans agree that Nole's peak was 2011. Post-peak Fed was better than peak Djokovic. Ergo Peak Fed >> peak Djokovic. His better results later on were due to weak competition and aging Fed.

 

[GoatNo1]

No, even most reasonable Djokobic fans agree that Nole's peak was 2011. Post-peak Fed was better than peak Djokovic. Ergo Peak Fed >> peak Djokovic. His better results later on were due to weak competition and aging Fed.

fed was old whenever he lost to nole. but had much better h2h vs rafa and muzza from 2011 and on than in his own era!

all stats shows that noles level at 2015-RG16 was highest ever. he self says that. rafa says that. and all stats shows that 2015 was in top3 (probable 2nd, after 2012) toughest seasons of all time!



strength of top8
average ELO of top8

% of seeds in finals stages of big events
blue - slam QF
black - masters QF
pink - slam SF (top4)

top8 average number of matches vs top10

 

[GoatNo1]

2015 nole had 31 top10 and 16 top5 wins.

according to top8 average ELO 2015 is second toughest season of all time, first being 2012.
according to average number of matches top8 played with top10 it is 3rd strongest season (since we have ranking, 1973). top3 being: 2012 with 21,3, 2009 with 20,5 and 2015 with 20,1! no other season has more than 19,1.

top 5 in 2015 was: nole, muzza, fed, wawa and rafa.
top5 when nole had the all time highest ATP points (after RG16) was: nole, muzza, fed, rafa and wawa!

 

[Mustard]

19-20 years old:

2007 Miami quarterfinals defeated Nadal
2007 Canada semifinal d. Nadal
2007 Canada final d. Federer
2008 Australian Open semifinal d. Federer
2008 Indian Wells semifinal d. Nadal

36-37 years old:

2023 French Open semifinal d. Alcaraz
2023 Wimbledon semifinal d. Sinner
2023 Cincinnati final d. Alcaraz
2023 YEC semifinal d. Alcaraz
2023 YEC final d. Sinner
2024 Olympics Gold final d. Alcaraz
2025 Australian Open quarterfinal d. Alcaraz

GOAT longevity.

2007 Miami to 2025 Australian Open, 18 years of ATG beating excellence

Does this mean that Djokovic fans are going to stop acting like 2011 and after is all that matters?

By the way, Nadal won majors for 10 straight calendar years (2005-2014) and in 15 calendar years overall (also 2017-2020, 2022). Nadal was also in the top 10 for 900+ consecutive weeks. Isn't that greater longevity?

Want to hear a wild stat? Nadal won 14 French Open titles. Nobody else has won a major (any major) in 14 different calendar years.

 

[junkieballer]

Does this mean that Djokovic fans are going to stop acting like 2011 and after is all that matters?

By the way, Nadal won majors for 10 straight calendar years (2005-2014) and in 15 calendar years overall (also 2017-2020, 2022). Nadal was also in the top 10 for 900+ consecutive weeks. Isn't that greater longevity?

Want to hear a wild stat? Nadal won 14 French Open titles. Nobody else has won a major (any major) in 14 different calendar years.

This thread is about longevity at beating ATGs

Nadal beat 6 ATGs before turning 20 and 3 ATGs after turning 35, which is very good but not on par with Djokovic's 5 wins before 21 and 7 wins after 36.

 

[PilotPete]

2015 nole had 31 top10 and 16 top5 wins.

according to top8 average ELO 2015 is second toughest season of all time, first being 2012.
according to average number of matches top8 played with top10 it is 3rd strongest season (since we have ranking, 1973). top3 being: 2012 with 21,3, 2009 with 20,5 and 2015 with 20,1! no other season has more than 19,1.

top 5 in 2015 was: nole, muzza, fed, wawa and rafa.
top5 when nole had the all time highest ATP points (after RG16) was: nole, muzza, fed, rafa and wawa!

Fed was not old when he lost to Nole in 2007 at the HC MC1000. Elo is meaningless, lest you think Andy Murray is in the same league as Rod Laver.

Peak for Peak Fed destroy Nole everywhere except maybe AO which would go to 5 and the winner depends on the surface used.

 

[BauerAlmeida]

Fed was not old when he lost to Nole in 2007 at the HC MC1000. Elo is meaningless, lest you think Andy Murray is in the same league as Rod Laver.

Peak for Peak Fed destroy Nole everywhere except maybe AO which would go to 5 and the winner depends on the surface used.

Good-old hypothetical Fed. As unbeaten as healthy Nadal.

 

[TearTheRoofOff]

Needs a dinosaur gen at the start with something like Fed Safin Roddick and Hewitt.

 

[GoatNo1]

Fed was not old when he lost to Nole in 2007 at the HC MC1000. Elo is meaningless, lest you think Andy Murray is in the same league as Rod Laver.

Peak for Peak Fed destroy Nole everywhere except maybe AO which would go to 5 and the winner depends on the surface used.

i said that nole is in his own tier and that after some tiers no one cares more.

no1e
... empty
fed + rafa
sampras + borg + laver
other ATG (incl muzza)
other players great players
other players

 

[junior74]

New generation only has one ATG, and he belongs to the old. Telling image.

 

[GoatNo1]

Needs a dinosaur gen at the start with something like Fed Safin Roddick and Hewitt.

no , it was just for 1 single season, when fed was no1 rafa was already no2 (except for 04 but already from 05) and soon enough came nole (07) and than muzza (08)

4 best players
02. hewitt, agassi, safin, ferrero
03. roddick, fed, ferrero, agassi
04. fed, roddick, hewitt, safin
05. fed, rafa, roddick, hewit
06. fed, rafa, denko, blake
07. fed, rafa, nole, denko
08. rafa, fed, nole, muzza - and there was beginning of big4 era

those 4 was top4 or every season up to 2014, when muzza was no6 and wawa no4. 2015. rafa was no5 and wawa as no4.

when nole had the ATP points record after RG16 top5 was: nole, muzza, fed, rafa and wawa.

so basicle 08-13 was big4 era and 14-RG16 was big4+wawa era.

04-09 fed era
05-07 fedal era
10 rafas year
08-13 big4 era
11-RG16 noles 1st era
14-RG16 big4+wawa era
W16-WTF16 muzzas time
17-RG18 fedals renesanse
W18-23 noles 2nd era
04-23 big3 era

 

[TearTheRoofOff]

no , it was just for 1 single season, when fed was no1 rafa was already no2 (except for 04 but already from 05) and soon enough came nole (07) and than muzza (08)

4 best players
02. hewitt, agassi, safin, ferrero
03. roddick, fed, ferrero, agassi
04. fed, roddick, hewitt, safin
05. fed, rafa, roddick, hewit
06. fed, rafa, denko, blake
07. fed, rafa, nole, denko
08. rafa, fed, nole, muzza - and there was beginning of big4 era

those 4 was top4 or every season up to 2014, when muzza was no6 and wawa no4. 2015. rafa was no5 and wawa as no4.

when nole had the ATP points record after RG16 top5 was: nole, muzza, fed, rafa and wawa.

so basicle 08-13 was big4 era and 14-RG16 was big4+wawa era.

04-09 fed era
05-07 fedal era
10 rafas year
08-13 big4 era
11-RG16 noles 1st era
14-RG16 big4+wawa era
W16-WTF16 muzzas time
17-RG18 fedals renesanse
W18-23 noles 2nd era
04-23 big3 era

Well, obviously there was tennis before the Big 4 period. By all means stick Rafa in there. For how long was the top 4 Djoker-Mid-****-Chainz?