Djokovic was an ATG beating machine at 19-20 as well as at 36-37

mike danny said:
But the most complete and versatile player should find a way to adapt, right? Federer did it and even Murray did it.
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adopt to what? blue clay?

he would do better if he adopt to high bonce or to rafas top spin FH to BH. maybe by taking ball earlier as nole and denko did. he did it, eventually (by changing racket) but rafa managed to make 23-10 in before fed did it. and even then he avoided rafa on clay. nole went 7-16 and 6-13 to 31-29 (despite 29 matches on clay) and 27+WO-23! 10-7-10-10 slam finals (despite W cancelation, AO deportation and USO DQ and ban) vs 7-5-12-7 or 6-14-5-5 tell the story.
 
SonnyT said:
Another important role Djokovic played was that he almost invariably played another ATG more times than anyone else. Yeh, take that, Fedfans!

Post-'11, Federer at the slams played Murray 4 times and Wawrinka 7 times. Nadal played Murray 3 times and Wawrinka 3 times.

Djokovic served an informal facilitator of important matches.

Fedfans, Djokovic's schedule wasn't easy, was it! At least, it was much harder than Federer or Nadal.
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Let's include perianal top 10 opponents to the list. Therefore, Berdych, del Potro, Cilic and Thiem in addition to Murray and Wawrinka, opposing the Big 3. The match-up between the Big 3 and sample almost invariably be top 10 opponents.

Federer played Murray, Wawrinka, Berdych, del Potro, Cilic and Thiem 4 7 4 3 6 0 times for a total of 24 times in the slams post-'11. Nadal played same sample 3 3 3 4 3 6 times for a total of 22 times. Djokovic played them 9 8 4 4 4 4 for a total of 33 times.

Remember that I worked out that opposing top 10 opponents, Federer and Nadal won 64% of their matches, representing 22% of their matches. Whereas Djokovic won 69% of his matches, representing 27% of his matches. Now the sets of numbers go together, if you win more, you get to face more top 10 players.

33/23 = 1.43, 27/22 = 1.23. I attribute the difference to the sample representing the steady cream of top 10.

Djokovic clearly and obviously faced more top 10 opponents than Federer and Nadal, no doubt about it. That put the lie to Djokovic owing his slams to feeble opposition. He faced tougher opponents than Federer and Nadal.

Thiem was the only clay-court specialist among the sample, the only reason he didn't win RG, because every time he lost to Nadal. They met only twice outside RG, and split. That was the reason he and Federer, who skipped RG in later years, have never met at the slams.
 
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junkieballer said:
The most versatile player before 2000 was Agassi, and Djokovic has the most similar game to Agassi's among Big3s.

I don't understand in what universe Federer would win in the moonballing era at Roland Garros or Nadal would win in the serve and volley era of Wimbledon, while Djokovic who has better serve and return than Nadal and a better baseline game than Federer wouldn't succeed on all surfaces.
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Fed would win at W, USO and AO. Djokovic is only winning AO and that's a maybe given the surface of the AO in the 90s.
 
GoatNo1 said:
yes, as always, trust me bro prove and hypothetical slams and levels. if nole only was 10% as good hypothetical player as IRL as for fed if he only was a 10% IRL as hypothetical.
numbers talk their own language. and do not lie. rafa had no tactic vs nole. as he said. it was just to play as good as he can and hope that nole is not at his level that particular day. vs fed was always hitting to his BH. was fed so complete as you said he would not had negative h2h vs main rivals even in his own era! he would won more on clay. players would not exploited his weakness and he would not lose 24 or 25 matches having MPs! nole on all big tournaments at least twice (except for OG thats every 4 years and in different time, countrie, conditions and surface) hile fed newer MC or rome and won RG and paris only once each. nole is closer o 3 times all big tournaments (except for OG) than fed (or rafa) to his 1st (nole missing only 3rd MC)!
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You must have comprehension issues. Numbers depend on the rules and surrounding circumstances. It's not like you're measuring physical properties of the universe. The numbers are based on made up rules and tournaments that change over time. Djokovic is not the GOAT, sorry to tell you.
 
GoatNo1 said:
adopt to what? blue clay?

he would do better if he adopt to high bonce or to rafas top spin FH to BH. maybe by taking ball earlier as nole and denko did. he did it, eventually (by changing racket) but rafa managed to make 23-10 in before fed did it. and even then he avoided rafa on clay. nole went 7-16 and 6-13 to 31-29 (despite 29 matches on clay) and 27+WO-23! 10-7-10-10 slam finals (despite W cancelation, AO deportation and USO DQ and ban) vs 7-5-12-7 or 6-14-5-5 tell the story.
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Djokovic is impotent on blue clay, Fed is king.
 
PilotPete said:
You must have comprehension issues. Numbers depend on the rules and surrounding circumstances. It's not like you're measuring physical properties of the universe. The numbers are based on made up rules and tournaments that change over time. Djokovic is not the GOAT, sorry to tell you.
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yes, tennis is the game with made up rules and nole is the GOAT of that game!
 
Razer said:
It is not insider information, it was said by Boris Becker himself. Listen to this

Boris Becker is the person who changed everything, I rate Becker as the greatest coach because of this reason.



www.sbs.com.au

Djokovic call even surprised me, says Becker

LONDON (Reuters) - Boris Becker said Novak Djokovic approached him to become his head coach the day the Serb lost the world No.1 ranking to Spaniard Rafa Nadal in October this year.
www.sbs.com.au www.sbs.com.au
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If he hadn't called BB at that moment, what would have become of Djokovic going forward?
:cautious:
 
GoatNo1 said:
you see, slams are not all that matter. for example, up too OG24 it was OG that rafa fans most talked about in conversation with noles fans. now, rafa fans like to take slams as the only thing but it is not. fed, nole and sampras, 3 last GOATs, said that YE#1 is most important, for example. nole has 8 and he was stolen for another back in 2022. and even with slam finals and WTF and many masters can do the job. in period 12-14 (that rafa fans take up as noles weakness) nole won 3 WTF (something rafa never did!) made 2 YE#1s and was ITF champ for all 3 seasons. he also won 10 masters, 16 big titles overall. at the and rafas biggest holes are YE#1, weeks at no1 and WTFs, thats why his fans want to skip talk about those stats. if rafa and nole had each oters result in 12-14 period, rafas CV would be much better. vast majority still see fed as the greater player but if rafa had 6 YE#1 (istead for5), 250 instead f 209 weeks at no1, 3 instead of 0 WTFs, 7 sted of 5 ITF champ award and 38 instead of 36 masters (would have same as nole) and 94 instead of 92 overall titles but 21 instead of 22 slams his CV would see much better and would videly was seen as second greatest of all time. with noles result in 12-14 period rafa would even have 3 CGS and 2 GM!
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Djo was not feeling like an alpha in 2012-2014 but rather like what Med would call a "small cat" in those slam finals. At one point he lost 5 of the 6 finals he played. Becker was hired not to help Djo add more weeks at #1 or win more masters. His main job was to stop Djo from choking in those slam finals. Improving his grass game was an added bonus. How much Becker actually helped though is debatable, as another poster above pointed out. The rot didn't stop immediately. Ned was a zombie in 2015–2016 and Fed was further away from his physical prime.
 
_phantom said:
Djo was not feeling like an alpha in 2012-2014 but rather like what Med would call a "small cat" in those slam finals. At one point he lost 5 of the 6 finals he played. Becker was hired not to help Djo add more weeks at #1 or win more masters. His main job was to stop Djo from choking in those slam finals. Improving his grass game was an added bonus. How much Becker actually helped though is debatable, as another poster above pointed out. The rot didn't stop immediately. Ned was a zombie in 2015–2016 and Fed was further away from his physical prime.
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it was literarily that nole said to becker. he called him when he become no2 and said: i want to be no1, no2 is not good enough! becker said: .... because i want you to be the best again but you have to pay the price...
 
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GoatNo1 said:
it was literarily that nole said to becker. he called him when he become no2 and said: i want to be no1, no2 is not good enough! becker said: .... because i want you to be the best again but you have to pay the price.
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Are you expecting Becker to publicly say Djo was choking badly in slam finals like a small cat and then he reached out to me to improve his mental strength?

Becker gets Djo better than anyone else. He would not say something to hurt his ego.
 
_phantom said:
Djo was not feeling like an alpha in 2012-2014 but rather like what Med would call a "small cat" in those slam finals. At one point he lost 5 of the 6 finals he played. Becker was hired not to help Djo add more weeks at #1 or win more masters. His main job was to stop Djo from choking in those slam finals. Improving his grass game was an added bonus. How much Becker actually helped though is debatable, as another poster above pointed out. The rot didn't stop immediately. Ned was a zombie in 2015–2016 and Fed was further away from his physical prime.
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Djokovic had the foresight to hire Becker!

Feel free to make any accusation and accuse whatsoever!

Yeh, I hate that Djokovic choked those match points, six precisely in three matches, to Federer!
 
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PilotPete said:
No, the truth hurts you, that why you cling to the circumstantial numbers so much.
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all numbers! and it should be even bigger gap that establishment did not protect fed and rafa, with frozen ranking when nole was about to crush feds no1 weeks record, DQ, deportation, bans, W20 cancelation, W22 points cancelation without to protect W21 points ect...
 
GoatNo1 said:
all numbers! and it should be even bigger gap that establishment did not protect fed and rafa, with frozen ranking when nole was about to crush feds no1 weeks record, DQ, deportation, bans, W20 cancelation, W22 points cancelation without to protect W21 points ect...
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Numbers depend on the rules and circumstances. Djokovic benefitted the most from court homogenization and that he was 6 years younger than Federer and was on the scene that much longer. Djokovic had 15 years free of younger ATGs. It's surprising he did not win even more slams.
 
SonnyT said:
People are at wit's end, so they have to say Djokovic's terrible on blue clay. Yeh, he's left that to Federer, he got everything else.
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Wit's end? Djokovic was destroyed there. Fed was not.

Additionally, Fed is the leader at two of the most important tournaments in tennis. Djokovic only one.
 
PilotPete said:
Wit's end? Djokovic was destroyed there. Fed was not.

Additionally, Fed is the leader at two of the most important tournaments in tennis. Djokovic only one.
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Blue clay, what is it? Only Federer, who couldn't anywhere against Djokovic, would resort to that. Seriously, what was it? I think they did away with that crap. We all know Federer would suck on anything related to clay.
 
SonnyT said:
Blue clay, what is it? Only Federer, who couldn't anywhere against Djokovic, would resort to that. Seriously, what was it? I think they did away with that crap. We all know Federer would suck on anything related to clay.
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It's just clay coloured blue. Requires supreme footwork which Djokovic lacks relative to Federer.

In any case, none of that changes the fact that at the most important tourneys, Fed leads at 2 of 4. Djokovic 1 of 4.
 
PilotPete said:
It's just clay coloured blue. Requires supreme footwork which Djokovic lacks relative to Federer.

In any case, none of that changes the fact that at the most important tourneys, Fed leads at 2 of 4. Djokovic 1 of 4.
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Federer was a dud, compared with Djokovic.

Are you aware that Federer won only one slam, the '12 WB, during the time Djokovic gained prominence in 2011 and after. He won 3 slams while Djokovic was injured, which Djokovic would have won without a doubt with a healthy body.

Did you read my documentation, in this thread, why Djokovic was heads and shoulders above Federer & Nadal? Perhaps you've read it, but couldn't understand it!
 
GoatNo1 said:
competition was best of all time but he was still alpha. his average ranking was no1 during that period.

his peak level was higher than feds.
his first era was most competative of all time.

nole achieved nole-slam and record high ATP points in the best run of all time: 4 slams, WTF, 5 masters + 3F, 31 top10 wins and 16 top8 wins. dominating all rivals and all surfaces!
and top5 was: nole, nuzza, fed, rafa and wawa!

feds best run that include all tournaments had 1,5K less points: 3 slams (+F), only 19 top10 and 8 top5 wins, was dominate by his main rival 2-4 and did not won a single tournament on clay!
and top5 was: fed, rafa, denko, blake, ljubo!!!!

nole has highest ELO as well!

so noles BOATness and highest peak ever is undisputed! it is nothing that fed has to come with except cope from his fans and very subjective aye tests!!!!


strength of top8
average ELO of top8
top8elo.jpg

% of seeds in finals stages of big events
blue - slam QF
black - masters QF
pink - slam SF (top4)
nositelji-graf.jpg

top8 average number of matches vs top10
mlinka-tenis-graf.jpg


as you see, feds era was much weaker than noles first and little bit weaker than noles 2nd. when nole did a points record it was in the strongest era ever. his best season was made in 2nd strongest season ever and in the toughest season ever nole still was best player and both no1 (with 2655 points gap to 2nd best player) and ITF champ!
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Sackmann's Elo (the only version that goes back that far), rates Laver's peak as 100ish Elo points higher than Djokovic's...it's easily the highest out of any tennis GOAT he's got stats for.

Also, "ELO" doesn't exist, never has. It's named after a dude.
 
SonnyT said:
Federer was a dud, compared with Djokovic.

Are you aware that Federer won only one slam, the '12 WB, during the time Djokovic gained prominence in 2011 and after. He won 3 slams while Djokovic was injured, which Djokovic would have won without a doubt with a healthy body.

Did you read my documentation, in this thread, why Djokovic was heads and shoulders above Federer & Nadal? Perhaps you've read it, but couldn't understand it!
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No, Federer is tennis compared to Djokovic who is just a pseudo science believing simpleton.

Are you aware that Djokovic played only two slam matches during Fed's peak (and lost both) whilst Fed played many in Djokovic's peakiest peak and had match points in 2 of 3 in the same year.

Your documentation is irrelevant since you come from the same stock as the person who posterior orifice your head is jammed up.
 
PilotPete said:
No, Federer is tennis compared to Djokovic who is just a pseudo science believing simpleton.

Are you aware that Djokovic played only two slam matches during Fed's peak (and lost both) whilst Fed played many in Djokovic's peakiest peak and had match points in 2 of 3 in the same year.

Your documentation is irrelevant since you come from the same stock as the person who posterior orifice your head is jammed up.
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If he retired in 2010 he would have only 16 Slams though, and maybe Djokovic and Nadal win even more Slams without Federer. Slam count could have been like 25-23-16.
 
junkieballer said:
If he retired in 2010 he would have only 16 Slams though, and maybe Djokovic and Nadal win even more Slams without Federer. Slam count could have been like 25-23-16.
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Sure, but if Fed retired in 2010, maybe that would have inspired others to step up and prevent Djokodal from winning anymore.
 
junkieballer said:
19-20 years old:

2007 Miami quarterfinals defeated Nadal
2007 Canada semifinal d. Nadal
2007 Canada final d. Federer
2008 Australian Open semifinal d. Federer
2008 Indian Wells semifinal d. Nadal

36-38 years old:

2023 French Open semifinal d. Alcaraz
2023 Wimbledon semifinal d. Sinner
2023 Cincinnati final d. Alcaraz
2023 YEC semifinal d. Alcaraz
2023 YEC final d. Sinner
2024 Olympics Gold final d. Alcaraz
2025 Australian Open quarterfinal d. Alcaraz
2026 Australian Open semifinal d. Sinner

GOAT longevity.

2007 Miami to 2026 Australian Open, 19 years of ATG beating excellence
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UPDATED :love:
 
SonnyT said:
Federer was a dud, compared with Djokovic.

Are you aware that Federer won only one slam, the '12 WB, during the time Djokovic gained prominence in 2011 and after. He won 3 slams while Djokovic was injured, which Djokovic would have won without a doubt with a healthy body.

Did you read my documentation, in this thread, why Djokovic was heads and shoulders above Federer & Nadal? Perhaps you've read it, but couldn't understand it!
Click to expand...
:D :D
 
Longest timespan between first and last win over ATGs in the Open Era

1) DJOKOVIC = 18 years AND 10 months
Miami, march 2007 b. Nadal
Australian Open, january 2026 b. Sinner (future ATG)

2) FEDERER = 18 years and 4 months
Wimbledon, july 2001 b. Sampras
ATP Finals, november 2019 b. Djokovic

3) NADAL = 18 years and 2 months
Miami, march 2004 b. Federer
Roland Garros, may 2022 b. Djokovic
 
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