tennis_pro
Bionic Poster
Courier played against like 10 different ATGs in 1989-1995, what are you talking about?
Djokovic won by far the most finals over ATGs in the Open Era
- Thread starter Lew II
- Start date
Lew II
G.O.A.T.
I know, I was ironic.
If for Roddick/Hewitt losing to Federer is a valid excuse so is for Murray losing to Djokovic/Federer
Lew II
G.O.A.T.
Slam finals/semifinals against GOAT contenders (10+ slam winners or whatever definition you want to give):
Courier 4
Murray 20
tennis_pro
Bionic Poster
I dont think anyone from the big 3 is worth as much as the stats show. Take almost anyone who played 20+ years ago and they were gone after hitting 30. Right now the youngest active Slam champion will be 32 in September. To say it's beyond the joke would be a massive understatement.
Lew II
G.O.A.T.
I somewhat agree but I already considered this, setting the bar for GOATness at 10 slam titles despite Big3 having won many more (17/19/20).
Andy Murray becomes the fourth king of a glittering era for tennis | Sean Ingle
Had he played in any other generation the British No1 would surely have won even more grand slams than the three he has picked up in the age of Roger Federer, Rafael Nadal and Novak Djokovic
www.theguardian.com
"How many grand slam titles might he have racked up in a different era? We cannot be sure. But the bidding surely starts at four or five and rising.
Murray has now played 11 grand slam finals, the same number as John McEnroe, Stefan Edberg and Mats Wilander and one ahead of Boris Becker. McEnroe and Wilander won seven major championships, Becker and Edberg six. The difference is those legends did not have to meet peak Federer or peak Djokovic – as Murray did in his first 10 finals."
Lew II
G.O.A.T.
Titles won beating a top5 in the final:
Djokovic 41/78 (52.6%)
Becker 25/49 (51.0%)
Laver 22/51 (43.1%)
Borg 27/64 (42.2%)
McEnroe 29/76 (38.2%)
Nadal 32/85 (37.6%)
Lendl 34/92 (37.0%)
Murray 17/46 (37.0%)
Edberg 14/42 (33.3%)
Sampras 21/64 (32.8%)
Rosewall 11/34 (32.4%)
Courier 7/23 (30.4%)
Federer 30/103 (29.1%)
Djokovic 41/78 (52.6%)
Becker 25/49 (51.0%)
Laver 22/51 (43.1%)
Borg 27/64 (42.2%)
McEnroe 29/76 (38.2%)
Nadal 32/85 (37.6%)
Lendl 34/92 (37.0%)
Murray 17/46 (37.0%)
Edberg 14/42 (33.3%)
Sampras 21/64 (32.8%)
Rosewall 11/34 (32.4%)
Courier 7/23 (30.4%)
Federer 30/103 (29.1%)
Which Majors do you see Murray winning in Courier's time?
Slam finals played against 3+ slam champions:
Djokovic 22/26 (84.6%)
Federer 18/31 (58%)
Wawrinka > Roddick/Hewitt because 3 > 2/1, right?
The four times Nole beat a non-formidable opponent in slam finals. I can name 3: Tsonga, Anderson, Del. Who's the 4th one?
Fun quiz: who can name all 13 non-formidable opponents of Federer!
dr325i
G.O.A.T.
he tried to be funny and fell on his face....
Lew II
G.O.A.T.
Thiem.
DjokoGOAT
Semi-Pro
I agree. 2011-2016 Murray is the 5th highest level of all time for me. If you put him in the 90s or 00s in place of Sampras or Federer he would have Borg level stats.
DjokoGOAT
Semi-Pro
Tennis and sports in general has evolved. Peak age is now early 30s.
THUNDERVOLLEY
G.O.A.T.
None. buscemi's top 10 list was a monster war if ever there was one, with most of those players having abilities that Murray would not handle or even understand how to handle.
Hitman
Bionic Poster
Fifth highest? So who are the top four then?
DjokoGOAT
Semi-Pro
Djokovic nadal Federer Sampras
That's not how it works. If, for instance, you're trying to figure out whether Murray is on par w/Courier despite 1 fewer Major and 17 fewer weeks at #1, you have him born in 1970 and have him actually contend with Sampras (and Edberg, Becker, etc.) to see how many Majors he wins. And the answer is probably around 2-4.
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THUNDERVOLLEY
G.O.A.T.
Yes its quite funny to think Murray would have stood a chance against Sampras, Becker, Edberg, Courier...the list goes on and on.
Why not? Murray did beat Djokovic twice in Slam finals! Most people would agree that Courier doesn't belong in the above list, and that Murray was much better player than Courier ever was! I certainly do! Courier is now a commentator for TennicChannel. If you ask him, I'm pretty sure he'd agree with me.
What are their top ELO ratings?
What are their top ELO ratings?
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DjokoGOAT
Semi-Pro
Murray is better than all those players except Sampras. Edberg and Becker would be 0-1 slam winners vs big 3.
Agreed! Ronaldo and Messi were scoring goals at alarming rates past their 30's, something once thought impossible!
Peyton Manning and Tom Brady were breaking QB records late in their 30's. LeBron at 35 was the leading candidate for the NBA MVP award when the season was interrupted. Alex Ovechkin at 33-34 is the leading NHL scorer for the last seasons. The list goes on and on!
Compared to them, Nadal and Djokovic are young pups.
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Again, Murray would be fortunate to be equal w/Courier. What Majors is he winning if he's born in 1970?
Murray born in 1970 is not Murray, but somebody else. Discussion is not what kind of player Murray would be, but what kind of player he was in 2016. The question is: 2016 Andy Murray put on his gears, take his racket, enters time-machine, goes into 1992 and play Jim Courier. Who wins?
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Why am I dropping 28-29 year-old Murray into 1992 to face 21-22 year old Courier to answer whether Murray is in the same tier as Courier?
Hitman
Bionic Poster
He certainly had a solid shot at multi slam year this season.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
Only possible because Fed decided to stick around in his 30's.
And putting Murray in there, I knew it.Typical Lew.
And putting Murray in there, I knew it.
Typical Lew.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
Novak and Nadal are younger than Fed is what this shows.
Show me all the younger ATG Djokovic has dealt with. I'll wait.
Poisoned Slice
Bionic Poster
TearTheRoofOff
G.O.A.T.
Andy Murray living rent free etc. etc.
Fridge
Professional
we don't know yet. For all we know any of the young guns could get 6-10 slams and end up as ATGs. To expect me to identify any ATGs at this point in their careers is impossible. You might have to wait 10 years to identify them tbh. Thiem could very well be an ATG and roll off 8 slams in the next 5 years. Also Fed is clearly better than averyone else except Nadal and Novak at the moment. The rankings have in the top 3/4 all the time but simply behind those 2. And age can't be used anymore. the guy won slams in 2017/2018 when Novak was out. Same with Nadal. Novak being out opened the door for fed and Nadal to take advantage simply showing that they cannot compete with him.
Err....Nadal does fine winning slams with Novak around. The French is always on his racket to lose, and it's not Nadal's problem if Novak is nowhere near as good at the US Open as he is at the Australian Open, that Nadal can actually compile a better US Open record than Djokovic. Nadal wins the same slams whether Novak is around and in decent form or not.
Fed certainly benefited from Novak being out. Hard to see Fed winning the Australian Open again with Novak in good form, and Novak now has his number at Wimbledon. But Nadal does not need Djokovic out to win slams. Nadal performs better at the French and US Open than Djokovic, and Djokovic performs better at the Australian Open and Wimbledon than Nadal. Between them, they are more or less a duopoly at the slams when both are in form.
Ridiculous to say Nadal cannot compete with Djokovic when he only just ended the year as World Number 1 in 2019, when Djokovic had a stellar year and won 2 slams. Some of the Djokovic stans are getting out of control with this nonsense.
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AnOctorokForDinner
Talk Tennis Guru
I'm literally willing to bet 500 bucks neither of Thiem, Zverev, Medvedev, Tsitsipas manages to win 6 slams. They are all limited mugs compared to the young guns of yore.
If you refer to 500 USD it is a deal. If one of them (Thiem, Zverev, Medvedev or Tsitsipas) does not win at least 6 slams by the end of their career I will send you 500 USD 24 h after the last of them retires. If one of them get to 6 slams you will send me 500 USD 24h after the last point of 6th GS final. I do hope that banking transfer between western Europe and Russia will be possible then. Please, confirm that you agree.
AnOctorokForDinner
Talk Tennis Guru
Sure, if we're still here and alive by then. Half a grand won't kill me. 24h deadline is a silly play on your part, we may not be visiting the site every day by then. Let's say a month. Keep in mind it's gonna be a long time till the bet is decided; at least a few years realistically if you're right, and more than a decade if I'm right.
Deal. I agree; a month is reasonable.
Third Serve
Talk Tennis Guru
^^^ Thread is bookmarked.
Third Serve
Talk Tennis Guru
A ten-year wait, though...
I have a feeling neither one of you will remember making the bet in the first place.
I have a feeling neither one of you will remember making the bet in the first place.
You are wrong. There is only one thing that could prevent me from honoring this bet: Death.
Sysyphus
Talk Tennis Guru
don't sell yourself short bro, I'm sure there are ways you could get around even this obstacle.
a little addendum in the will for instance: "if after an untimely passing on my part – Lord forbid – players XYZ retire with less than 6 slams, $500USD (adjusted for inflation) shall be wired from my estate to the specified TTW poaster."
Let's give this bet the professionalism that it deserves.
Federer and Del Potro
Bionic Poster
Here’s your 500 bucks
zagor
Bionic Poster
Why did you lowercase The Nadal?
well, if I wasn't stopped by other tennis players, I would have been undefeated
maratha_warrior
Hall of Fame
Lew II
G.O.A.T.
Nah. In no hardcourt tournament Nadal is favourite ahead of Djokovic.
For bookmakers Nole is the favourite:
Djokovic 2.50
Nadal 4.50
Third Serve
Talk Tennis Guru
Thread bump since Thiem won one Slam.
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