Djokovic's competition in 2011-2015

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Deleted member 748597

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2011

AO: Straight setted Federer and pigeon Murray
FO: Lost to an in-form older Fed who played prime level tennis
W: Beat prime Nadal
USO: Beat an in-form older Fed and prime Nadal

2012

AO: Beat pigeon Murray and prime Nadal in 5
FO: Beat Fed and deleted that match. Later lost to prime Nadal
W: Lost to an in-form Grass GOAT
USO: Lost to Murray in an underrated windy match

2013

AO: Beat peak Stan and pigeon Murray
FO: Lost to prime Nadal in 5
W: Barely beat peak Delpo and then lost to the British hero
USO: Beat peak Stan and then ruined his legacy giving Nadal the 2-1 H2H lead

2014

AO: Lost to peak Stan who later beat the injured man who plays tennis
FO: Lost to Nadal who recovered from injury
W: Had an overall tough draw and later beat good Federer
USO: Beat pigeon Murray and then lost to Nishikori roflmao (Yeah, this was a bad loss. Probably on par with his loss to PCB)

2015

AO: Beat peak Stan and pigeon Murray
FO: Straight setted washed up Nadal and later lost to peak Stan (Sadly, we can't call him the younger ATG)
W: Beat good underrated Federer
USO: Beat good underrated Federer and the crowd full of real tennis fans


Even in the recent vacuum era, he still had to beat strong Nadal in the Wimb 2018 SF to win the Slam after two years.
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
People agree 11-13 was the real deal. Federer fans do not like 14-15 as much and Djokovic fans do not like 04-05 as much nobody will be budging on that.

14 was decent. Its 15 that was on similar level as 06/10 - relatively weak years, but Djokovic fans have a serious problem admitting that.
16 was worse than 06/10/15 obviously.

Lets see for example :
djoko faced peakrinka in AO 14 instead of errorinka in 15 AO
djoko faced prime level nadal in RG 14 (only at RG, not rest of CC season) - still better than peakrinka in RG 15
djoko faced stepanek, tsonga, cilic, dimi and 14 fed at Wim 14 - clearly tougher than anderson, 15 cilic and 15 fed
djoko lost to nishi at USO 14. even if he had won, he'd have faced peak Cilic > 15 USO fed.
 
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Deleted member 748597

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Predictable posts in this thread.

Anyway, I don't care about 04-05. I believe that 14-15 is underrated and that's all.
 
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RS

Bionic Poster
14 was decent. Its 15 that was on similar level as 06/10, but Djokovic fans have a serious problem admitting that.
16 was worse than 06/10/15 obviously.
Federer fans are hardly in terms these debates even they open the bar for some years being weaker a bit more often than Djokovic.

Point was it is common to agree than 2011-13 was tough competition but 04-05 and 14-15 depends on who you support most times.
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
Federer fans are hardly in terms these debates even they open the bar for some years being weaker a bit more often than Djokovic.

Point was it is common to agree than 2011-13 was tough competition but 04-05 and 14-15 depends on who you support most times.


04 vs 14 is closer. I did that but can't find it now. 05 vs 15? Sorry, not close:

how are they even close to being even ? I can understand disageeing with much better and saying just better, but close to even, I don't see it at all.

2005 AO vs 2015 AO : Safin, Federer, Agassi,Hewitt, Nalbandian, Roddick,>> Djokovic, Murray, Wawrinka, Berdych
2005 FO vs 2015 FO : Nadal, Federer, Puerta, Davydenko, Coria ,Canas, Robredo, Ferrer, Gaudio > Wawrinka, Djokovic, Murray, Tsonga, Federer,Nadal, Nishi

2005 Wim vs 2015 Wim : about the same (let me go a bit in detail for this)

Federer 2005 Wim > Djokovic 2015 Wim
Hewitt 2005 Wim ~ Federer 2015 Wim (including the final, maybe a slight edge to 15 Wim fed, but its debatable, longer it goes, more in favour of hewitt)
Roddick 2005 Wim < Murray 2015 Wim
Johansson 2005 Wim ~ Anderson 2015 Wim
Gonzalez 2005 Wim ~ Gasquet 2015 Wim

about even

2005 USO vs 2015 USO : Federer, Agassi, Hewitt, Nalbandian, Blake >> Djokovic, Federer, Wawrinka

YEC : 2005 was affected quite a bit by injuries, but final made up for it. 2005 YEC < 2015 YEC

early HC season minus AO : 2005 > 2015
IW 05 had fed, hewitt, roddick, canas
IW 15 had djoko, fed, , raonic, murray
about the same. Murray was actually worse than canas was.

Miami 05 : federer struggled a little bit earlier, then played really well in QF+SF (henman, agassi)
nadal actually cruised through to final except for ljubicic match.
then that epic final

Miami 15 : djokovic struggled earlier, barely escaping vs dolgo, then played well in the later matches.
murray played better than in IW clearly, but still nothing great.
nothing else noteworthy

I'd say Miami 05 is somewhere in b/w > and >> Miami 15

clay season minus RG : 2005 > 2015
2005 had nadal winning rome+monte carlo. epic 5-setter vs coria at rome. good semi vs gasquet at monte carlo (gasquet upset fed there in an excellent performance)
decent final vs coria
federer dominated hamburg

2015 had djokovic coming through tough draw in rome; fed in final, wawr in semi
madrid wasn't really good in quality. murray played really but, but nadal was poor
monte carlo had a good final, but nothing much else with djokovic playing well in tourney


North America HC season minus USO : 2005 < 2015

Canada 05 < Canada 15
djokovic barely escaped vs gulbis, got beat by murray playing well
nadal beat agassi in 3-setter in 2005 final
no fed in 2005 or in 2015

Cincy 05 < Cincy 15
fed of Cincy 05 < fed of cincy 15
roddick, hewitt in 05; djokovic murray in 05

Indoor season minus YEC : 2005 << 2015
djokovic was on a tear in 2015 indoor season. even players playing some okayish/decent tennis were dismissed - nadal, murray etc
fed-nadal final in basel
no fed in 05 (injured, so out of madrid+paris)
nadal-ljubicic 5-setter in madrid 05 is not enough to cover up for it+paris being depleted of even more players

So to sum it up , IMO :

2005 AO >> 2015 AO
2005 RG > 2015 RG
2005 Wim ~ 2015 Wim
2005 USO >> 2015 USO

2005 YEC < 2015 YEC

early HC season minus AO : 2005 > 2015
clay season minus RG : 2005 > 2015
North America HC season minus USO : 2005 < 2015
Indoor season minus YEC : 2005 << 2015


the non major events in 15 is a little better than 2005 (thanks to indoor season.)
But the difference in slams in 2005 is just too big.

so yeah, I stand by 2005 >> 2015.
 
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Deleted member 748597

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The other reason I created this thread is because it simply made me laugh.
 
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NoleFam

Bionic Poster
I actually don't think the Nishikori loss was a bad one. Remember he had beaten Raonic and Wawrinka before that match so he was in really good form. It's just a match Djokovic should have won but the 96 degree temp with humidity in the heat of the day I think caused him to play really bad, plus he wasn't in his best form. I don't think he really picked up a racket after Wimbledon honestly until Canada and his play during USO hardcourt series was below par mostly, besides the USO Murray match which was well played on both sides.
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
I am going by the opinion the majority.

I'd rather go by proper analysis. There's also the factor that many Djokovic fans have seen very little tennis in 04-05, whereas reverse is not true for fed fans in 14-15.

Not everybody rates event by event some use rankings etc etc.

but if they only take rankings, their analysis misses quite a few things
 

RS

Bionic Poster
I'd rather go by proper analysis. There's also the factor that many Djokovic fans have seen very little tennis in 04-05.



but if they only take rankings, their analysis misses quite a few things
Playing level is heavily subjective well just like using rankings and match wins etc etc.

Cannot speak for all Djokovic fans and Nadal fans as well but i saw a lot of tennis in 04-05 but sometimes that might come into it for some Djokovic and Nadal fans as well.
 
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NoleFam

Bionic Poster
14 was decent. Its 15 that was on similar level as 06/10 - relatively weak years, but Djokovic fans have a serious problem admitting that.
16 was worse than 06/10/15 obviously.

Lets see for example :
djoko faced peakrinka in AO 14 instead of errorinka in 15 AO
djoko faced prime level nadal in RG 14 (only at RG, not rest of CC season) - still better than peakrinka in RG 15
djoko faced stepanek, tsonga, cilic, dimi and 14 fed at Wim 14 - clearly tougher than anderson, 15 cilic and 15 fed
djoko lost to nishi at USO 14. even if he had won, he'd have faced peak Cilic > 15 USO fed.

2015 on par with 2006? No year from 2007-2015 is on the level of 2006.
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
2015 on par with 2006? No year from 2007-2015 is on the level of 2006.

yes, 2006, 2010 and 2015 are on a similar level.

2015 clearly more top heavy than 2006, but 2006 has clearly more depth
Just one example: Baggy made the F of AO and SF at Wim in 2006. He was ranked #11 at the end of the year. AO he beat roddick, ljubicic&nalby. gave fed a tough fight for the first 2 sets.

Wim 06 had beaten hewitt in the QF to get to the semi (beat grosjean, young Murray before that) - obviously nowhere as tough as AO, but just mentioning.
 
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45647.jpg
 

daggerman

Hall of Fame
The thing that always strikes me about threads like this is how collectively poor we are at evaluating era/competition strength. Simply naming a set of players and making subjective, largely unreliable judgments about how good they were in that moment seems to fall short as a method of analysis.
 

RS

Bionic Poster
The thing that always strikes me about threads like this is how collectively poor we are at evaluating era/competition strength. Simply naming a set of players and making subjective, largely unreliable judgments about how good they were in that moment seems to fall short as a method of analysis.
We cannot prove much of it yet we still spend so much time here trying to prove it because we like the debate side :(
 

Sport

G.O.A.T.
FO: Lost to an in-form older Fed who played prime level tennis
That's like saying that Nadal faced an older Federer at Wimbledon 2006. Yes, Federer was older than Nadal at Wimbledon 2006, but he was still merely 24 and at his peak.

Analogously, yes Federer was older than Djokovic at RG 2011, but Roger was merely 29 and playing at his peak. Federer's peak level of play at RG was 2011.
 
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Deleted member 777746

Guest
2011

AO: Straight setted Federer and pigeon Murray
FO: Lost to an in-form older Fed who played prime level tennis
W: Beat prime Nadal
USO: Beat an in-form older Fed and prime Nadal

2012

AO: Beat pigeon Murray and prime Nadal in 5
FO: Beat Fed and deleted that match. Later lost to prime Nadal
W: Lost to an in-form Grass GOAT
USO: Lost to Murray in an underrated windy match

2013

AO: Beat peak Stan and pigeon Murray
FO: Lost to prime Nadal in 5
W: Barely beat peak Delpo and then lost to the British hero
USO: Beat peak Stan and then ruined his legacy giving Nadal the 2-1 H2H lead

2014

AO: Lost to peak Stan who later beat the injured man who plays tennis
FO: Lost to Nadal who recovered from injury
W: Had an overall tough draw and later beat good Federer
USO: Beat pigeon Murray and then lost to Nishikori roflmao (Yeah, this was a bad loss. Probably on par with his loss to PCB)

2015

AO: Beat peak Stan and pigeon Murray
FO: Straight setted washed up Nadal and later lost to peak Stan (Sadly, we can't call him the younger ATG)
W: Beat good underrated Federer
USO: Beat good underrated Federer and the crowd full of real tennis fans


Even in the recent vacuum era, he still had to beat strong Nadal in the Wimb 2018 SF to win the Slam after two years.
While tennis has had ups and downs in terms of eras, there has only ever been one Vacuum Era (03-07). I don't think we should confuse historical terms and therefore confuse history.

But overall yes, Nolan's competition was the toughest of the Big 3
 

NoleFam

Bionic Poster
yes, 2006, 2010 and 2015 are on a similar level.

2015 clearly more top heavy than 2006, but 2006 has clearly more depth

The reason 2006 had more depth is because the top players were clearly not as good as 2015, and were not blocking them to the same extent. Baghdatis played well but he wouldn't make the AO final in 2015. He wouldn't make W SF in 2015 either. 2006 Nadal also doesn't make the Wimbledon final in 2015. He would be crushed by 2015 Djokovic and would lose to 2015 Federer pretty easily as well. From a level of play standpoint, they simply would be outmatched. Would 2006 Roddick defeat 2015 Djokovic or Federer and make the USO final in 2015. I have to go with no.
 

RS

Bionic Poster
The reason 2006 had more depth is because the top players were clearly not as good as 2015. Baghdatis played well but he wouldn't make the AO final in 2015. He wouldn't make W SF in 2015 either. 2006 Nadal also doesn't make the Wimbledon final in 2015. He would crushed by 2015 Djokovic and would lose to 2015 Federer pretty easily as well. From a level of play standpoint, they simply would be outmatched. Would 2006 Roddick defeat 2015 Djokovic or Federer and make the USO final in 2015. I have to go with no.
Not gonna get involved in depth and 06 vs 15 but Nadal of the Wimbeldon 06 final is underated so i disagree him him losing easily or being ripped to bits to Federer or even Djokovic.

He gave 2006 Federer a good fight in the final.
 

NoleFam

Bionic Poster
Not gonna get involved in depth and 06 vs 15 but Nadal of the Wimbeldon 06 final is underated so i disagree him him losing easily or being ripped to bits to Federer or even Djokovic.

He gave 2006 Federer a good fight in the final.

2015 Djokovc would absolutely destroy 2006 Nadal, and I mean no disrespect. His draw was basically a cakewalk but that was the level of grass that year and he was able to get to the final. Yea he gave Federer a fight for 2 sets and lost the other two handily, and that's against the more favorable matchup.
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
The reason 2006 had more depth is because the top players were clearly not as good as 2015. Baghdatis played well but he wouldn't make the AO final in 2015.

yes, he would. Who would have stopped him if he played in the place of Murray? berdych who got bagelled by Murray? yeah, that's what I thought.

He wouldn't make W SF in 2015 either.

Gasquet did. So baggy could do that as well in his place.

2006 Nadal also doesn't make the Wimbledon final in 2015. He would crushed by 2015 Djokovic and would lose to 2015 Federer pretty easily as well. From a level of play standpoint, they simply would be outmatched. Would 2006 Roddick defeat 2015 Djokovic or Federer and make the USO final in 2015. I have to go with no.

2006 Wim Nadal vs 2015 Wim fed? fed has the higher top level, but not the physicality to sustain it for more than 2 sets/2 hrs. So the longer the match, the better for Nadal. Could go either way.

2006 USO Roddick in the final on a similar level as 2015 USO fed in the final (fed slightly better at best) (even if fed was better pre-final)
Also, importantly 2006 USO fed > 2015 USO Djoko by a significant distance
 

maratha_warrior

Hall of Fame
2011

AO: Straight setted Federer and pigeon Murray
FO: Lost to an in-form older Fed who played prime level tennis
W: Beat prime Nadal
USO: Beat an in-form older Fed and prime Nadal

2012

AO: Beat pigeon Murray and prime Nadal in 5
FO: Beat Fed and deleted that match. Later lost to prime Nadal
W: Lost to an in-form Grass GOAT
USO: Lost to Murray in an underrated windy match

2013

AO: Beat peak Stan and pigeon Murray
FO: Lost to prime Nadal in 5
W: Barely beat peak Delpo and then lost to the British hero
USO: Beat peak Stan and then ruined his legacy giving Nadal the 2-1 H2H lead

2014

AO: Lost to peak Stan who later beat the injured man who plays tennis
FO: Lost to Nadal who recovered from injury
W: Had an overall tough draw and later beat good Federer
USO: Beat pigeon Murray and then lost to Nishikori roflmao (Yeah, this was a bad loss. Probably on par with his loss to PCB)

2015

AO: Beat peak Stan and pigeon Murray
FO: Straight setted washed up Nadal and later lost to peak Stan (Sadly, we can't call him the younger ATG)
W: Beat good underrated Federer
USO: Beat good underrated Federer and the crowd full of real tennis fans


Even in the recent vacuum era, he still had to beat strong Nadal in the Wimb 2018 SF to win the Slam after two years.

Why are you using the term " prime" for Nadal in 2011 ??

I remember , Real tennis fans used the terms for Federer as Grand-fatherer, and Post-prime Nadal ( 2011 ).
 

NoleFam

Bionic Poster
yes, he would. Who would have stopped him if he played in the place of Murray? berdych who got bagelled by Murray? yeah, that's what I thought.



Gasquet did. So baggy could do that as well.



2006 Wim Nadal vs 2015 Wim fed? fed has the higher top level, but not the physicality to sustain it for more than 2 sets(/2 hrs). So the longer the match, the better for Nadal. Could go either way.

2006 USO Roddick in the final on a similar level as 2015 USO fed in the final (fed slightly better at best) (even if fed was better pre-final)
Also, importantly 2006 USO fed > 2015 USO Djoko by a significant distance

What do you mean in the place of Murray? That's the field. He has to play Murray where he would lose.

2006 Roddick is on a similar level of 2015 Federer? Ok.
 

RS

Bionic Poster
2015 Djokovc would absolutely destroy 2006 Nadal, and I mean no disrespect. His draw was basically a cakewalk but that was the level of grass that year and he was able to get to the final. Yea he gave Federer a fight for 2 sets and lost the other two handily, and that's against the more favorable matchup.
I dont see how you can use the more favourable matchup as a reason with post 12 Federer in slams and in 2015 when Djokovic was in his peak.

Nadal had chances early in the 4th as well IIRC so while he was clearly beaten he still put up a fight.

I agree Djokovic would win but not as easy as you claim.
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
What do you mean in the place of Murray? That's the field. He has to play Murray where he would lose.

excuse me? Murray was the losing finalist vs Djokovic in AO 2015, just as Baggy was losing finalist in AO 2006. So I put baggy in Murray's place.

2006 Roddick is on a similar level of 2015 Federer? Ok.

the respective USO finals? Yeah.
middle 2 sets of 2006 USO final analogous to middle 2 sets of USO 2015 final - actually Roddick did better considering he was up vs a clearly tougher opponent. Roddick did worse in the 1st and 4th sets , but then USO 15 final fed couldn't even take advantage of djoko's fall in the first set to even take it to a TB, bah. 4th set attempt at comeback from fed was a little too late as well. Obviously fed was considerably better in 06 final in the 1st&4th sets as well compared to Djoko of USO 15 final

Whole USOs? 2015 USO fed was better
 
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NoleFam

Bionic Poster
I dont see how you can use the more favourable matchup as a reason with post 12 Federer in slams and in 2015 when Djokovic was in his peak.

Nadal had chances early in the 4th as well IIRC so while he was clearly beaten he still put up a fight.

I agree Djokovic would win but not as easy as you claim.

Djokovic won the 2011 final easily. Now think of a better version of Djokovic versus a worse version of Nadal and imagine the outcome. It wouldn't even be that close.
 

RS

Bionic Poster
Djokovic won the 2011 final easily. Now think of a better version of Djokovic versus a worse version of Nadal and imagine the outcome. It wouldn't even be that close.
I see Djokovic winning in 4.

In my view Nadal was comparable level in the 06 and 11 final . Think this is quite harsh on Nadal tbh.
 

NoleFam

Bionic Poster
excuse me? Murray was the losing finalist vs Djokovic in AO 2015, just as Baggy was losing finalist in AO 2006. So I put baggy in Murray's place.



the respective USO finals? Yeah.
Whole USOs? 2015 USO fed was better

Well that's not how it works. Baggy has to play the field from 2015 which includes Murray. What you're talking about negates the whole point.
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
Well that's not how it works. Baggy has to play the field from 2015 which includes Murray. What you're talking about negates the whole point.

Yeah, that's how it works. Just to give another example, when evaluating 2006 Fed vs 2015 Djoko, you put each of them in others place. You don't normally put both of them in the same field.
 

mike danny

Bionic Poster
That's like saying that Nadal faced an older Federer at Wimbledon 2006. Yes, Federer was older than Nadal at Wimbledon 2006, but he was still merely 24 and at his peak.

Analogously, yes Federer was older than Djokovic at RG 2011, but Roger was merely 29 and playing at his peak. Federer's peak level of play at RG was 2011.
Djokovic and Nadal also declined at merely 29. Heck, Djokovic at merely 29 lost to Istomin at his best slam :p
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
Djokovic won the 2011 final easily. Now think of a better version of Djokovic versus a worse version of Nadal and imagine the outcome. It wouldn't even be that close.

2006 Wim final Nadal > 2011 Wim final Nadal (though not by much)

2015 Djoko beats 2006 Wim final Nadal in 4 sets, but he did beat 2015 Wim final fed in 4 sets.

Also, like I said: 2006 Wim Nadal vs 2015 Wim fed? fed has the higher top level, but not the physicality to sustain it for more than 2 sets/2 hrs. So the longer the match, the better for Nadal. Could go either way.
 

mike danny

Bionic Poster
The reason 2006 had more depth is because the top players were clearly not as good as 2015, and were not blocking them to the same extent. Baghdatis played well but he wouldn't make the AO final in 2015. He wouldn't make W SF in 2015 either. 2006 Nadal also doesn't make the Wimbledon final in 2015. He would be crushed by 2015 Djokovic and would lose to 2015 Federer pretty easily as well. From a level of play standpoint, they simply would be outmatched. Would 2006 Roddick defeat 2015 Djokovic or Federer and make the USO final in 2015. I have to go with no.
Why not? Not like Murray beat absolute giants to reach the AO final and Wimb semi.

I don't think 2006 Nadal gets beaten by 2015 Fed pretty easily.
 

NoleFam

Bionic Poster
Yeah, that's how it works. Just to give another example, when evaluating 2006 Fed vs 2015 Djoko, you put each of them in others place. You don't normally put both of them in the same field.

Yea because the question is how each of them would do in place of the other in their fields.
 

mike danny

Bionic Poster
What do you mean in the place of Murray? That's the field. He has to play Murray where he would lose.

2006 Roddick is on a similar level of 2015 Federer? Ok.
Hey, Gasquet reached the Wimb semi, so why not Baghdatis? And even if he doesn't reach the AO F, he still reaches the semis, so not that big of a difference.

2015 Fed made his match more competitive in the first and 4th sets, but I don't think he was much better than Roddick in sets 2 and 3.
 
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