Do call me English!
- Thread starter MaxT
- Start date
MaxT said:
There's a movie called Braveheart that may explain some things
I talked w/ a gentleman from England.
It's interesting though; in this country(U.S.) we focus on racism based on skin color. I'd assumed that sort of racism wouldn't exist in a country that's almost all white like the U.K. I mean I can't tell but that Murray's a Scot vs. an Irish or Brittish. They all look the same to me. But apparently their racism and prejudice was based on accent/speech so they'd pick on a guy for sounding Irish!
Of course now the UK has a fair amount of immigrants so I'm sure they have racism based on skin color.
Being English, and having MANY Scottish friends (I just game back down from Stirling at the weekend), I can tell you that yes you don't call a Scott English, besides it being wrong, they take more offense than if you were to call an Englishman Scottish.
Basically no-one likes being called something they are not... however the scottish (and indeed the welsh) take particular offence since the English appear to dominate so many things.
However we are all British, and everyone agrees on that.
On another note, the larger majority of English will always support the Scottish & Welsh where they can, however a smaller majority of the Scottish & Welsh will support the English... basically the English are fairly relaxed when it comes to these things, but the Scottish and Welsh take it FAR more seriously, but I guess thats just natural given the history.... this is also why many consider that the English have little national identity.... its almost considered wrong to be proud to be English, you cannot put a flag outside your house without getting a special licence, because it could be seen as provactive to other nationals.
On the note of racism, its a very mixed bag. On the whole England is one of the most tolorant places in the World, we have every race living here, and most areas integrate well. There are a number of "hot-spots" for racial tensions, however (especaially recently) they seems to be more, and more cross-race, e.g. Jamican's, Turks, Polish. The racial communities are fairly large and vast, especially in London so they naturally come against one-another at times. There are LARGE Indian/Pakistan communities in the norther areas, which is basically a throw-back from the mill-workers during the industrial revolution which was mostly concentrated in the North, as well as many Caribbian & African, but they are more prevelant in the Midlands & South. We also have a lot of foreign works based in the health-services, as a shortage of doctors and nurses mean we have european, asian, african & south-american... alsorts of immigrants working there.
However things are rather-more different in Wales and Scotland, there is more racism and you will see FAR less integration (though there is a large asian community in Scotland)... I can only attribute this to their greater national identity compaired to the English.
Basically no-one likes being called something they are not... however the scottish (and indeed the welsh) take particular offence since the English appear to dominate so many things.
However we are all British, and everyone agrees on that.
On another note, the larger majority of English will always support the Scottish & Welsh where they can, however a smaller majority of the Scottish & Welsh will support the English... basically the English are fairly relaxed when it comes to these things, but the Scottish and Welsh take it FAR more seriously, but I guess thats just natural given the history.... this is also why many consider that the English have little national identity.... its almost considered wrong to be proud to be English, you cannot put a flag outside your house without getting a special licence, because it could be seen as provactive to other nationals.
On the note of racism, its a very mixed bag. On the whole England is one of the most tolorant places in the World, we have every race living here, and most areas integrate well. There are a number of "hot-spots" for racial tensions, however (especaially recently) they seems to be more, and more cross-race, e.g. Jamican's, Turks, Polish. The racial communities are fairly large and vast, especially in London so they naturally come against one-another at times. There are LARGE Indian/Pakistan communities in the norther areas, which is basically a throw-back from the mill-workers during the industrial revolution which was mostly concentrated in the North, as well as many Caribbian & African, but they are more prevelant in the Midlands & South. We also have a lot of foreign works based in the health-services, as a shortage of doctors and nurses mean we have european, asian, african & south-american... alsorts of immigrants working there.
However things are rather-more different in Wales and Scotland, there is more racism and you will see FAR less integration (though there is a large asian community in Scotland)... I can only attribute this to their greater national identity compaired to the English.
jaggy
Talk Tennis Guru
I do not have any scientific evidence to back this up, purely anecdotal but:
1/ I lived in both Scotland and England and always found a larger % of English explicitly anti immigrant than I did in Scotland
2/ I have 2 black friends who stated that Scottish people were way more tolerant of them than English so I cannot really accept easily that there is "more racism" in Scotland. More nationalistic fervour/patriotism possibly but I believe more welcoming to other races.
1/ I lived in both Scotland and England and always found a larger % of English explicitly anti immigrant than I did in Scotland
2/ I have 2 black friends who stated that Scottish people were way more tolerant of them than English so I cannot really accept easily that there is "more racism" in Scotland. More nationalistic fervour/patriotism possibly but I believe more welcoming to other races.
Taram_Nifas
Rookie
llama said:
I don't wonder why the "World Hates", I already know why, it is because the World is generally irrational. Canadians might want to ask themselves, that while they try desperately to appear unlike America they still have Toronto Canadians plotting to carry out terror attacks in Canada. Hate is just hate.
Great post BLIND. Very accurate.jaggy said:
I'd agree there, but generally speaking, and according to the many American friends I have (I live near a US Air Base ) the British attitude to race is WAY more tolerant than back in the States. Obviously, there are pockets of racism, generally in run down poor areas, but there is Asian/Black hatred as well as white/black, white/Asian factions, but the majority of British people dont really think about the colour of peoples skin.
It's just that the bigots and the prejudiced get all the media coverage. I cant say that I'm anti Scottish or anti Welsh in the slightest, but I have felt uncomfortable a few times in both those countries. Which is ironic, because I'm not English, I'm a Celt. Cornishmen and Bretons (northern France) are very closely related.
Happily, it's not the norm though.
origmarm
Hall of Fame
This is exactly it. The only thing I would add for the US guys is this:
- GB - Great Britain
- UK - United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland
I just find it makes it easier if you know the full names.
Regarding the Scots, I can understand not liking being called English but its hardly the end of the world. I just find it comical sometimes that people can get upset by an honest mistake like that. It's different if it's said to p*ss you off but I think that a lot of folk from overseas are just confused or don't understand, especially with the whole British vs. English/Scottish/Welsh thing, you are two things at once so people are bound to mix it up. I find the same thing with people from New Zealand and Australia, when I hear them talk sometimes it's difficult to tell and some people get really offended if you guess wrong. It's just pointless.
That said I think there is something in the comment re being British when winning and Scottish when losing.
ninman
Hall of Fame
1) There are four world cup teams representing the home nations, England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, there is no team representing Great Britain or the UK for that matter.
2) The UK refers to all four countries, Scotland, England, Wales and Northern Ireland, Great Britain refers to only Scotland, England and Wales.
What is written on the passport is "The United Kindom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland".
ninman
Hall of Fame
It's not an honest mistake, it's pure ignorance, and that offends people more than an honest mistake.
origmarm
Hall of Fame
How is that different? I think what you are getting at is that they know he is Scottish and think that Scotland is part of England, I don't think that's the case mostly.
For me people in the US (as an example) sometimes don't understand what British is, equate British with English, hear that he is British and then think he's English. I don't think they do it to upset him or for reasons other than they are mistaken as to what British means, for me that is an honest mistake, and yes it's a result of their ignorance on the subject.
Everyone is ignorant about some things, as long as it's not wilful it seems silly to get upset over it. If someone called me French for example I wouldn't really care, just think they were a bit stupid.
Don't call me American. And get those maple leaves off your luggage when you travel abroad. LOL
And Croats are not Serbs.
Canadians struggle to retain our identity, what with all the US TV we get, proximity of the US border, emigration of our talent (Trebek, Martin Short, Pam Anderson, etc. etc. etc.) we have our own history and language (s), holidays, etc. and it's
what happens when you have a big power beside a smaller one.
And I'm sure Murray was NOT kidding.
ninman
Hall of Fame
Then either:
a) Children in America are stupid, or
b) Your education system is completely crap and you don't get taught anything about Geography or European History.
G
Gugafan_Redux
Guest
The English, generally speaking, would not be ticked off by this comment. The English understand that the Scots are Scots and not English. As a matter of nationality, the English don't want Scots to be lumped in with the English anymore than the Scots want to be likened to Englishmen. Separate from this are Englishmen who believe that Scotland as a national and politically entity should be subsumed by the English Crown. The English might be divided into two groups: those who recognize and respect Scots independence (policially and culturally), and those two recognize and resent it. In either case, it is a dynamic they are well familiar with. A Scotsman's pride would neither surprise or offend them.
As for endoresement "dollars" (pounds), I don't see this affecting anything.
vive le beau jeu !
Talk Tennis Guru
i don't think the island of man is part of UK.
i think it's like this (but correct me if i'm wrong):
English Crown
British Overseas territories
(Falklands, Gibraltar, etc.)
Nb: the GB acronym is obviously used for car plates everywhere, which leads to some confusion...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_car_number_plates#European_plates_and_the_GB_controversy
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G
Gugafan_Redux
Guest
Let's make it learning Friday! Yay!
origmarm
Hall of Fame
I'm not from the US mate
I would say that in general the education is not so great on European history and geography but then I wouldn't necessarily expect it to be in that there is a natural tendency to focus on domestic history for example.
I guess we can agree to disagree on this one, I just find it surprising people get so upset
ninman
Hall of Fame
^^ Vive le beau jeu, that's pretty good but it's "Wales" and not "Whales"
I agree with Gugafan, I don't think it's affected his sponsorship etc..at all. Most people are grown up about it.
Although from what I gather there was some objection to his Scottish wristband.
That's amusing since the team that last won the cup (Anaheim) had more Canadian players than the Ottawa team it beat.
The only American players competing for grand slams are the Williams sisters and they are as classless as yourself. Whether you're American or not is irrelevant.
I do believe that a Canadian is higher on any list than any Americans. Nestor ring a bell?
As well, you shouldn't assume all Canadians love hockey, I myself am not a fan of the sport.
vive le beau jeu !
Talk Tennis Guru
i corrected it, thx.^^ Vive le beau jeu, that's pretty good but it's "Wales" and not "Whales"
I agree with Gugafan, I don't think it's affected his sponsorship etc..at all. Most people are grown up about it.
Being Welsh I find I use my nationality when asked what it is to my advantage. We do have our own language and culture. However not to confuse people who are not aware of this I say I am British. Although we have a separate parliament or assembly , we are still one nation whether we like it or not and dependent on each. Many of Andy Murrays fans are from all over the country and in this respect he is supported by "brits". I quite understand his reluctance to be called english in this instance - but Britain is where he was born.
ninman
Hall of Fame
i corrected it, thx.
The biggest kick in the teeth to Welsh people was when George W. Moron Bush had a (paraphrased) conversation with a Welsh violinist, who was visiting the White House that went a little like this:
G.W: That was lovely, and where are you from?
Violinist: Wales.
(George gets confused look on his face.)
G.W: Where's Wales?
ninman
Hall of Fame
Being Scottish I have nothing against being called British. However it really bothers me when people say things like "You know in England they call Chips, Crisps". I remember one guy even thought the road laws in England are different to the road laws in Scotland and Wales!
gj011
Banned
This whole discussion reminded me of Monty Python episode, when aliens were turning everybody into Scottish in order to win the Wimbledon:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdX17Z8Fs98&NR=1
origmarm
Hall of Fame
Presumably the clothing sponsor? That's ridiculous, next thing you know it'll be the haircut
Re the second post, I'm hardly surprised that GW Bush said something like that, it is Bush after all
I don't reckon it bothers the English that Murray is the best GS hope and is Scottish, after the Henman years I reckon they'll take anything they can get
G
Gugafan_Redux
Guest
SempreSami
Hall of Fame
Presumably the clothing sponsor? That's ridiculous, next thing you know it'll be the haircut
Re the second post, I'm hardly surprised that GW Bush said something like that, it is Bush after all
I don't reckon it bothers the English that Murray is the best GS hope and is Scottish, after the Henman years I reckon they'll take anything they can get
Is that a jab at Henman?:evil:
johnny ballgame
Professional
But to add to the confusion, Olympic athletes and teams compete as Great Britain... except in footie (sigh).
ninman
Hall of Fame
As a result, none of the home nations compete in either Olympic football, or Olympic rugby.
Greengrass
New User
I have a Scottish mother and English father but being born + bed in England, I'm English and that's it. Doesn't bother me in the slightest that Jock Boy is a Scot (and my nickname for him is an endearment, not a snipe in case some of you think it is). He's played for Team GB in the Davis Cup though I hear rumblings he may not do so much in the future ... but I don't feel upset about his decision. Federer only plays for Switzerland when it suits him and I'd expect Murray to pick his own career over Team GB .. especially when we haven't got another decent player to back him up.
As for our American cousins not being hot on geography, I had evidence of that when in Florida and in answer to a question of where we came from, and we said "England", she asked "Is that near the UK?".
As for our American cousins not being hot on geography, I had evidence of that when in Florida and in answer to a question of where we came from, and we said "England", she asked "Is that near the UK?".
origmarm
Hall of Fame
While I used to love watching Henman play I never felt that he was the great British hope for a Grand Slam. Wimby was a close as he was going to get and I never felt he had a real chance of winning it, getting to the semis or final mabye but winning.....
That said it was more of a jibe at the poor English performance generally of late in various sports
bluetrain4
G.O.A.T.
"Great Britian" is the island on which the "nations" (not countries) of Scotland, England, and Wales are located. It is the largest of the British Isles
The "United Kingdom" is composed of all of Great Britian (Scotland, England, Wales), as well as Northern Ireland.
the UK was originally a merger between the kingdom of Great Britian (which itself was a merger between England and Scotland) and the Kingdom of Ireland (which was contained on the island named Ireland) That part of the island of Ireland that seceded from the UK became the Republic of Ireland. The rest of the island became Northern Ireland and remained as part of the UK.
The "United Kingdom" is composed of all of Great Britian (Scotland, England, Wales), as well as Northern Ireland.
the UK was originally a merger between the kingdom of Great Britian (which itself was a merger between England and Scotland) and the Kingdom of Ireland (which was contained on the island named Ireland) That part of the island of Ireland that seceded from the UK became the Republic of Ireland. The rest of the island became Northern Ireland and remained as part of the UK.
Leublu tennis
Legend
For Americans the study of geography is learning how to read road maps so that you can travel to far foreign places like New Orleans, Hollywood, and San Francisco. And foreign languages? English is one of them. And I am an American; just not very proud of this aspect of Americal.
gj011
Banned
You are correct. Isle of Man is not part of the UK. My bad.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isle_of_Man
Robert Johnson
New User
LOL. This is the trouble with some scots though. The English really don't think this way! Im English and i think it would be great if he won a slam. It would be great for Scotland AND GB tennis.I also couldn't care less if someone called me a scot or welsh etc. Who cares! Like stated above i can't see why people get so hung up about it in 2008.
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