do NOT accelerate through the ball
- Thread starter geca
- Start date
dominikk1985
Legend
good advice, actually Hand Speed Peaks slightly before Impact and then slows down a Little so that the racket can overtake the Hand
Todd Hicks
Rookie
I don't see how easing up can help those of us who don't consistently hit the ball past the server's line.
D
Deleted member 23235
Guest
while i do see what you're trying to say, i think explaining it this way will lead alot of folks to decelerate through contact.
i think what you're describing naturally happens when you're hitting sufficiently out in front, ie. at the end of arms length... as arm "rounds the corner" the racquet accelerates into and through the contact point... to me i envision the acceleration of the racquet to be similar to spinning a sling shot and releasing the stone...
Nostradamus
Bionic Poster
this is called wrist snap, is it not ? isnt' this something we do normally ? with whippy motion ?
BlueB
Legend
You actually don't slow down the racquet, you just ease of the hand acceleration. If you don't hold with dead grip, the racquet should actually accelerate even more.
Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk
I guess you are thinking the serve? I had the forehand in mind when I wrote the initial post
but in any case, the theory is the same - you give room for the racket to release.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
There is some moderate wrist action but, NO, I would not characterize it as an active wrist snap. There is some debate on whether the observed wrist action is primarily passive or active in nature. The wrist is often in extension (laid back) at the start of the forward swing. It may still be in extension at contact or it might be closer to neutral. However, the wrist should not assume a state of flexion (past neutral) as a wrist snap would tend to suggest. Some of the wrist action observed is actually a forearm rotation (pronation on the FH; supination on the BH).
Not sure that it is even physically possible to accelerate thru the ball. When the racket (strings) collide with the ball, the racket actually losses speed -- this it, from the very nature of the collision, the racket head decelerates. The hand might very well slow down prior to impact as some have indicated in this thread. However, the racket head is accelerated into contact -- but not thru it.
5263
G.O.A.T.
It won't and it is a misunderstanding based on the wrong angle of observation in video. The hand should not coast or pause, but accelerate in the "up and across" dimension.....which will appear as slower or even stopping from a side perspective, but it actually creates the whip some mention that causes the R face to accel into contact. You can see it much better from behind and above.Think of driving on a very gentle curve in the car, than at a given moment, turning the wheel to sharpen the turn. Realize the g-force this creates and how it causes items to accel to the outside of the turn.
me too. My practice them is to speed up through contact. I do get the feel of releasing the swing into contact. but, i've never thought of slowing the hand at or near contact
I guess you are thinking the serve? I had the forehand in mind when I wrote the initial post
I've read, heard and practice slower the off hand (slowing L hand for R handed server) but I've never heard of slowing the R hand at contact for a R handed server
as someone has explained.. you don't slow the hand and racket down. you ease off the acceleration and let the racket fly by itself for 6 inches... I think whats happening here is the 'easing off' relaxes the grip and allows the racket head to whip through.
nothing wrong with 'just hit thru the ball', but you are leaving speed on the table.... try it. in my experience you leave about 3 feet of depth on the table... took me about 2 weeks to re-calibrate and tone in the FH.
Mareqnyc
Hall of Fame
yeah it feels great too. if you keep accelerating through contact it feels like a push (albeit fast), when you release through the ball it is more like a loose slap - Much more action on the ball when it lands on the other side of the court. Plus you don't get tired as much
Same with the serve - I let the racquet fly through contact, release right before contact
chikoo
Hall of Fame
My earlier problem was I used to brake my hands right upon contact. The trick, as I learned, is not to brake, but to no longer accelerate. the racquet should continue through the swing though.
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
The serve.
Marshall & Elliott research.
Note - the time scale on the bottom applies to the tick marks on the line through the center of the graph, not to the vertical lines that connect to the pictures above.
This early research result shows joint angular velocities, including internal shoulder rotation (ISR) and pronation. The details it shows are very interesting.
The gray highlighted sections show
1) the increasing angular velocity of internal shoulder rotation. Strong ISR muscle forces.
2) the increasing angular velocity of pronation. Uncertain pronation muscle forces.
The tan highlighted sections show
1) the decreasing angular velocity of internal shoulder rotation. Little/no ISR muscle forces.
2) the decreasing angular velocity of pronation. Uncertain pronation muscle forces.
When internal shoulder rotation is increasing pronation is decreasing. When ISR is decreasing before impact, pronation increases.
ISR accelerates up to several milliseconds before impact and then seems to decelerate. When ISR slows, pronation increases. My interpretation of the joint forces is that the momentum of the arm and racket continue in motion when ISR force is decreased before impact. Then the momentum of the racket and rotating arm cause passive pronation.
This data came from a 3D motion capture set up using multi-cameras. The cameras that produced this data only sampled one frame every 5 milliseconds and the servers were 'elite' servers and not top ATP servers. This early research data seems very interesting and it would be interesting to see better data with ATP servers and faster frame rates.
In other words, this graph seems to show ISR acceleration stopping before impact.
Marshall & Elliott research.
Note - the time scale on the bottom applies to the tick marks on the line through the center of the graph, not to the vertical lines that connect to the pictures above.
This early research result shows joint angular velocities, including internal shoulder rotation (ISR) and pronation. The details it shows are very interesting.
The gray highlighted sections show
1) the increasing angular velocity of internal shoulder rotation. Strong ISR muscle forces.
2) the increasing angular velocity of pronation. Uncertain pronation muscle forces.
The tan highlighted sections show
1) the decreasing angular velocity of internal shoulder rotation. Little/no ISR muscle forces.
2) the decreasing angular velocity of pronation. Uncertain pronation muscle forces.
When internal shoulder rotation is increasing pronation is decreasing. When ISR is decreasing before impact, pronation increases.
ISR accelerates up to several milliseconds before impact and then seems to decelerate. When ISR slows, pronation increases. My interpretation of the joint forces is that the momentum of the arm and racket continue in motion when ISR force is decreased before impact. Then the momentum of the racket and rotating arm cause passive pronation.
This data came from a 3D motion capture set up using multi-cameras. The cameras that produced this data only sampled one frame every 5 milliseconds and the servers were 'elite' servers and not top ATP servers. This early research data seems very interesting and it would be interesting to see better data with ATP servers and faster frame rates.
In other words, this graph seems to show ISR acceleration stopping before impact.
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ARKustom93
Professional
No hand deceleration before contact necessary, ... if hand and RH acceleration are in balance on the FW swing, RH will 'win' the race to the ball.
If not, lower hand acceleration rate(less 'throttle'), not deceleration, is the answer.
If not, lower hand acceleration rate(less 'throttle'), not deceleration, is the answer.
ARKustom93
Professional
No.
YES.
That's how you hit first serves. You have to back off the acceleration, so it's in glide mode, so the head of the racket can come past the hand. If the had keeps equal acceleration, the rackethead can never find a time to pass the hand.
Backing off is not slowing down the hand, it's stalling the acceleration.
That's how you hit first serves. You have to back off the acceleration, so it's in glide mode, so the head of the racket can come past the hand. If the had keeps equal acceleration, the rackethead can never find a time to pass the hand.
Backing off is not slowing down the hand, it's stalling the acceleration.
ARKustom93
Professional
What did I say about acceleration balance??
ARKustom93
Professional
Who's looking??
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
The graph in post #17 shows angular rotation deceleration of ISR before impact. It does not show a period of 0 acceleration but a peak angular velocity. It is not very accurate due to the slow cameras. We should have similar data for the forehand and backhand to know what they are doing, acceleration >0, 0, or <0.
Maybe there rarely is 0 angular or linear acceleration in a tennis stroke around impact? That might make sense with elastic muscle stretching. ?
Unfortunately, it takes a 3D 'motion capture system' to measure velocities in 3D. A single video camera cannot measure in 3D because motion in the direction toward or away from the camera is not accurately measured. One camera can do a pretty good job under some circumstances, say, particularly when the object motion is not away or toward the camera.
Maybe how it feels works or works well enough? But to start, nerve signals for feelings are slow......... Whether you can feel acceleration ceasing 6" before impact is doubtful. Maybe you feel hand forces after the fact and that is enough. ? It could probably be checked with a high speed camera - your feeling vs if acceleration had stopped 6" before impact.
Your OP seems to match the crude data that shows joint rotation rates for the serve.
Maybe there rarely is 0 angular or linear acceleration in a tennis stroke around impact? That might make sense with elastic muscle stretching. ?
Unfortunately, it takes a 3D 'motion capture system' to measure velocities in 3D. A single video camera cannot measure in 3D because motion in the direction toward or away from the camera is not accurately measured. One camera can do a pretty good job under some circumstances, say, particularly when the object motion is not away or toward the camera.
Maybe how it feels works or works well enough? But to start, nerve signals for feelings are slow......... Whether you can feel acceleration ceasing 6" before impact is doubtful. Maybe you feel hand forces after the fact and that is enough. ? It could probably be checked with a high speed camera - your feeling vs if acceleration had stopped 6" before impact.
Your OP seems to match the crude data that shows joint rotation rates for the serve.
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OP is correct - I suspect. However not convinced this is the best way to think about it. The OP is describe the RESULT of good technique - not the cause of it.
It's better to think about the forces being used to power the swing - and then it becomes clear why he is correct.
Let's think about a normal rally forehand:
1) Gravity - and release of POTENTIAL energy. If you let arm simply relax from a proper starting position it will fall both forward and down. If the ball was positioned in the right spot you could even hit it forward with some modest topspin with this stored energy.
2) Hips - this is the turning of the hips on the forehand. This IMHO is what people are talking about when they say 'use the body' The kinetic chain legs etc flows up and allows the hips to rotate. This rotation causes the shoulders to turn and eventually the arm and racquet come around (but they lag).
3) After 1 and 2 - I believe there is a little bit of what people call arm but this is basically all the other muscles - that you could use to power the swing. This is use for a highly level rally shot mostly to direct the ball and control the racquet face - but it's quite possible to use these muscles exclusively. That's 'arming' the shot. To do so you would essentially 'push' the shot and use only these muscles to power the entire swing.
Anyway if you are following the 'pro style' sort of swing using gravity and hips as your main 'power sources' you would likely not accelerate through the ball but instead feel you are relaxing - because before contact the hip turn is played out..
Watch Thiem's forehand here - racquet drops - hips turn - racquet glides through..
So OP is correct but the amateur problem is generally that people are using different muscle groups in different ways then the pros. So for them they are going to be 'arming' the ball through the shot.. and this could in fact be acceleration through the ball. Same deal on the serve the pancake serve features max RHS AFTER the ball is well gone.
Now check out these guys - for an example of arming. They basically move the arm in isolation.. so the normal 'pro' acceleration rules don't apply. The hips are all played out - since they aren't really powering the swing at all!
Arming is natural for a lot of players - who resort to this.. You see this everywhere with lower level club players..
It's better to think about the forces being used to power the swing - and then it becomes clear why he is correct.
Let's think about a normal rally forehand:
1) Gravity - and release of POTENTIAL energy. If you let arm simply relax from a proper starting position it will fall both forward and down. If the ball was positioned in the right spot you could even hit it forward with some modest topspin with this stored energy.
2) Hips - this is the turning of the hips on the forehand. This IMHO is what people are talking about when they say 'use the body' The kinetic chain legs etc flows up and allows the hips to rotate. This rotation causes the shoulders to turn and eventually the arm and racquet come around (but they lag).
3) After 1 and 2 - I believe there is a little bit of what people call arm but this is basically all the other muscles - that you could use to power the swing. This is use for a highly level rally shot mostly to direct the ball and control the racquet face - but it's quite possible to use these muscles exclusively. That's 'arming' the shot. To do so you would essentially 'push' the shot and use only these muscles to power the entire swing.
Anyway if you are following the 'pro style' sort of swing using gravity and hips as your main 'power sources' you would likely not accelerate through the ball but instead feel you are relaxing - because before contact the hip turn is played out..
Watch Thiem's forehand here - racquet drops - hips turn - racquet glides through..
So OP is correct but the amateur problem is generally that people are using different muscle groups in different ways then the pros. So for them they are going to be 'arming' the ball through the shot.. and this could in fact be acceleration through the ball. Same deal on the serve the pancake serve features max RHS AFTER the ball is well gone.
Now check out these guys - for an example of arming. They basically move the arm in isolation.. so the normal 'pro' acceleration rules don't apply. The hips are all played out - since they aren't really powering the swing at all!
Arming is natural for a lot of players - who resort to this.. You see this everywhere with lower level club players..
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Bender
G.O.A.T.
Easing up actually helps produce power without having to muscle the ball over, ie past the service box.
bitcoinoperated
Hall of Fame
I remember reading Vic Braden's research on this which found that consciously stopping accelerating does result in an increase in arm speed.
Still, whether this means it is a good idea to try and do is debatable. Personally, having such a staccato movement that needs timing is a recipe for increased errors for marginal increase in racquet head speed. I know of no golfer that does this and if it worked I think they would have picked it up. Instead, they sweep through the stroke as uninterrupted as possible and that is what I strive to do.
Still, whether this means it is a good idea to try and do is debatable. Personally, having such a staccato movement that needs timing is a recipe for increased errors for marginal increase in racquet head speed. I know of no golfer that does this and if it worked I think they would have picked it up. Instead, they sweep through the stroke as uninterrupted as possible and that is what I strive to do.
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
Is this?
1) a personal observation & experience
2) an existing instruction
3) some research that you read
personally I felt that the 'throw' to 'push' idea doesn't quite work for me.. it felt more natural to me to just 'let up the gas pedal'... but I think the ideas are similar.
You can use the whip analogy.
Not exactly the same, you're not trying to go supersonic with a racket head.
But if you want the racket head to accelerate past your hand at impact, you better allow it to...by ending the acceleration of the hand.
With a whip, you swing fast forward, then slow and reverse the hand, to really allow the tip of the whip to fly past the hand at...supersonic speed.
Not exactly the same, you're not trying to go supersonic with a racket head.
But if you want the racket head to accelerate past your hand at impact, you better allow it to...by ending the acceleration of the hand.
With a whip, you swing fast forward, then slow and reverse the hand, to really allow the tip of the whip to fly past the hand at...supersonic speed.
Crocodile
G.O.A.T.
The use of appropriate biomechanics should solve you problems. Concepts to be practised are:
1. Develop appropriate balance and balance in kinetic chain
2. Learn how to overcome inertia- split step
3. Opposite force- load up
4. Momentum- move
5. Elastic energy- store up energy, through effective torsion
6. Coordination- timing
In essence if you load and rotate in your preparation phase should create enough energy to increase your racquet speed.
1. Develop appropriate balance and balance in kinetic chain
2. Learn how to overcome inertia- split step
3. Opposite force- load up
4. Momentum- move
5. Elastic energy- store up energy, through effective torsion
6. Coordination- timing
In essence if you load and rotate in your preparation phase should create enough energy to increase your racquet speed.
Digital Atheist
Hall of Fame
Agree rhs should be at its maximum just before contact. I don't think at that stage you consciously let the racquet fly through by itself, but continue to smoothly swing through the hitting zone. And that last sentence sounds to me like a natural part of the follow-through/deceleration process, and is post-contact.
I could be wrong, but suspect this is what you're trying to say:
http://www.feeltennis.net/fewer-mistakes-power/
Vrrrooooom!
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
The most basic component of your muscles is the sarcomere. The sarcomere has two very different structures for producing forces:
1) Actin & Myosin - let's say that the A & M system works like men pulling on a rope.
2) Titin - elastic
1) If we slowly curl our arm, and lift a weight in our hand, we are using the Actin & Myosin for forces.
2) If we rapidly oscillate our forearm up and down (holding a can of soup for inertial resistance to slow things down) we are probably using Actin & Myosin and Titin. That motion is more complicated than the simple slow curl.
How do we know - that when we believe that we are 'not accelerating' just before impact - that we are not still using Titin for forces?
From the OP - " ......it feels like you take the foot off the gas pedal and let the car coast."
How do we know when we are using Titin?
1) Actin & Myosin - let's say that the A & M system works like men pulling on a rope.
2) Titin - elastic
1) If we slowly curl our arm, and lift a weight in our hand, we are using the Actin & Myosin for forces.
2) If we rapidly oscillate our forearm up and down (holding a can of soup for inertial resistance to slow things down) we are probably using Actin & Myosin and Titin. That motion is more complicated than the simple slow curl.
How do we know - that when we believe that we are 'not accelerating' just before impact - that we are not still using Titin for forces?
From the OP - " ......it feels like you take the foot off the gas pedal and let the car coast."
How do we know when we are using Titin?
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Contrarian View: I find the whip analogy suboptimal. I find the nunchuk analogy slightly more apt. The forearm is one board, the racquet is the other. The racquet is, for practical purposes, inflexible. There are only a few major direct sources of RH acceleration. I take these to be upper body rotation momentum transferred to the hitting upper arm, the acceleration due to the necessary speed-up of the racquet head to "make it around the corner" as the hitting hand moves increasingly toward the left late in the swing, and the brief and sudden acceleration caused by application of internal shoulder rotation just into contact.
Many contributors speak of the power coming from hip rotation. I'll say I don't see it the way they do: At the start of an expert contemporary forehand the upper body has been rotated back farther than the hips. There is tension there. The feet, especially the racquet-side foot, anchor the hips, allowing the tension/stretch to build as the "separation angle" between hips and torso increases. The knees must be flexed to allow some hip rotation back, but more importantly to allow for propulsion of the hips upward upon launch of forward motion.
I see the extension of the legs as forcing (anatomically) the rotation of the upper body forward. This impulse is supplemented by flexing of particular core muscles and pulling in, shortening the leverage of, the swinging non-hitting arm. The rotation speed of the upper body reaches a maximum very quickly, and because the player has taken ESR thereby, among other things, locking the arm to the torso's rotation, the hitting arm quickly accelerates.
Because of the ESR/lag/"dynamic slot" bit, the now-advancing-forward arm pulls the racquet forward/outward butt-cap first. This motion is briefly almost a straight line...which cannot be held indefinitely.
The speed of torso/shoulder rotation velocity quickly hits its maximum, though torso rotation continues. The leg power has been expended, transferred, to get that torso rotating. For many/most power hits ...the feet have come off the ground either visibly or for practical purposes (only a toe remaining on the ground), and therefore powering of the hips by the legs has stopped. At best the hips keep rotating so as not to slow down, be a drag on, the torso. There are two remaining sources of RH acceleration left:
The first (and major one, in my experience) is the forcing of the RH to chase, catch up to, the hitting hand as the hand reaches the end of its outward (sideward) path. At one instant the racquet is trailing the hand and the hand is accelerating (on an arc) forward quickly. Inevitably (given that the arm is attached to the torso!) the hitting hand curves leftward. The racquet grip is therefore pulled leftward. The rigid racquet must accelerate forward, rotating, to align with the new direction of the hitting hand. The racquet head, at this point, must make a very sudden and great acceleration forward to change from following the racquet handle trailing the forward-moving hitting hand...to following a new line, typically up and leftward, made by the hand, physically imposed on the racquet handle, and therefore imposed most drastically on the end of the racquet, i.e. the RH.
[Brian Gordon has concluded, as have many others (anecdotally) that the greater the angle of butt-cap-first pull ACROSS the line of the incoming ball, the greater the potential to attain high RH speed: Here's why, in my view: The major source of acceleration remaining is the rotation of the racquet head around a changing path the hand is following: If the racquet butt-cap is pulled somewhat outward at first across the line of the incoming ball, rather than directly at the incoming ball, then the subsequent rotation of the racquet to align with the hand's leftward motion just before the hit...will mean that the racquet head has to follow a longer total arc, but in approximately the same amount of time as it would if you pulled the butt-cap on a more forward path, an arc of lesser total angle. The angular acceleration of the racquet's length around the point of the butt-cap must therefore be greater, as will RH velocity, of course.]
An obvious effect of the rapidly increasing leftward motion of the hitting hand is a deceleration in its relative forward vector component, motion, providing the RH a chance to actually overtake the forward position of the hitting hand, providing that feeling of "stopping the hand's acceleration" which people sense. The wrist must be relaxed to let this happen, only tensing, if at all, exactly at the last instant, into the ISR/contact.
The more perfect the initial ESR/lag, the stronger the pull out to and across the ball's path can be, and the longer you can delay the inevitable leftward motion of your hand (and therefore delay final acceleration of the RH) by taking the ball out in front. And, the more violent and perfectly timed that leftward pull off of the hitting hand, and the more aggressive your use of ISR just into contact, the faster your RH speed should be into contact, to the displeasure of your opponent. The first key is get the racquet loaded with momentum by leg-driven upward drive powering torso rotation to recover the torso's alignment over the hips. (In tennis you have to do this work, mostly, gravity being little available.) The second key is to get that torso momentum transferred to the arm and racquet as efficiently via ESR lockup and initial position, making a line as linear as possible and as outward across the ball's line as you can manage, or at least toward the ball. The third key is to delay and perfectly time the pull-off leftward of the hitting hand, forcing the RH to rapidly accelerate to catch up, to round the corner, but lo, to contact the ball at the instant of its greatest velocity, and with ISR.
So it's like using a pair of nunchuks well, I say, with added details to make it tennis, not that other martial art. Well, everyone has their view of the thing.
Critiques welcome.
Many contributors speak of the power coming from hip rotation. I'll say I don't see it the way they do: At the start of an expert contemporary forehand the upper body has been rotated back farther than the hips. There is tension there. The feet, especially the racquet-side foot, anchor the hips, allowing the tension/stretch to build as the "separation angle" between hips and torso increases. The knees must be flexed to allow some hip rotation back, but more importantly to allow for propulsion of the hips upward upon launch of forward motion.
I see the extension of the legs as forcing (anatomically) the rotation of the upper body forward. This impulse is supplemented by flexing of particular core muscles and pulling in, shortening the leverage of, the swinging non-hitting arm. The rotation speed of the upper body reaches a maximum very quickly, and because the player has taken ESR thereby, among other things, locking the arm to the torso's rotation, the hitting arm quickly accelerates.
Because of the ESR/lag/"dynamic slot" bit, the now-advancing-forward arm pulls the racquet forward/outward butt-cap first. This motion is briefly almost a straight line...which cannot be held indefinitely.
The speed of torso/shoulder rotation velocity quickly hits its maximum, though torso rotation continues. The leg power has been expended, transferred, to get that torso rotating. For many/most power hits ...the feet have come off the ground either visibly or for practical purposes (only a toe remaining on the ground), and therefore powering of the hips by the legs has stopped. At best the hips keep rotating so as not to slow down, be a drag on, the torso. There are two remaining sources of RH acceleration left:
The first (and major one, in my experience) is the forcing of the RH to chase, catch up to, the hitting hand as the hand reaches the end of its outward (sideward) path. At one instant the racquet is trailing the hand and the hand is accelerating (on an arc) forward quickly. Inevitably (given that the arm is attached to the torso!) the hitting hand curves leftward. The racquet grip is therefore pulled leftward. The rigid racquet must accelerate forward, rotating, to align with the new direction of the hitting hand. The racquet head, at this point, must make a very sudden and great acceleration forward to change from following the racquet handle trailing the forward-moving hitting hand...to following a new line, typically up and leftward, made by the hand, physically imposed on the racquet handle, and therefore imposed most drastically on the end of the racquet, i.e. the RH.
[Brian Gordon has concluded, as have many others (anecdotally) that the greater the angle of butt-cap-first pull ACROSS the line of the incoming ball, the greater the potential to attain high RH speed: Here's why, in my view: The major source of acceleration remaining is the rotation of the racquet head around a changing path the hand is following: If the racquet butt-cap is pulled somewhat outward at first across the line of the incoming ball, rather than directly at the incoming ball, then the subsequent rotation of the racquet to align with the hand's leftward motion just before the hit...will mean that the racquet head has to follow a longer total arc, but in approximately the same amount of time as it would if you pulled the butt-cap on a more forward path, an arc of lesser total angle. The angular acceleration of the racquet's length around the point of the butt-cap must therefore be greater, as will RH velocity, of course.]
An obvious effect of the rapidly increasing leftward motion of the hitting hand is a deceleration in its relative forward vector component, motion, providing the RH a chance to actually overtake the forward position of the hitting hand, providing that feeling of "stopping the hand's acceleration" which people sense. The wrist must be relaxed to let this happen, only tensing, if at all, exactly at the last instant, into the ISR/contact.
The more perfect the initial ESR/lag, the stronger the pull out to and across the ball's path can be, and the longer you can delay the inevitable leftward motion of your hand (and therefore delay final acceleration of the RH) by taking the ball out in front. And, the more violent and perfectly timed that leftward pull off of the hitting hand, and the more aggressive your use of ISR just into contact, the faster your RH speed should be into contact, to the displeasure of your opponent. The first key is get the racquet loaded with momentum by leg-driven upward drive powering torso rotation to recover the torso's alignment over the hips. (In tennis you have to do this work, mostly, gravity being little available.) The second key is to get that torso momentum transferred to the arm and racquet as efficiently via ESR lockup and initial position, making a line as linear as possible and as outward across the ball's line as you can manage, or at least toward the ball. The third key is to delay and perfectly time the pull-off leftward of the hitting hand, forcing the RH to rapidly accelerate to catch up, to round the corner, but lo, to contact the ball at the instant of its greatest velocity, and with ISR.
So it's like using a pair of nunchuks well, I say, with added details to make it tennis, not that other martial art. Well, everyone has their view of the thing.
Critiques welcome.
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Hip rotation is the easy way to understand it. Whether there is potential energy there (from pre-rotation - say in an open stance) or not- rotate those hips faster - racquet goes faster. That = more power. Gravity and hip rotation allow a player to 'throw' the racquet at the ball. That is a proper rally forehand.
Shroud
Talk Tennis Guru
Is the esr active? Or does it just happen? And did I read right that instead of pointing at the ball the butt cap should have as great an angle as possible?
hey this is TT deju vu...more esr/isr talk!
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
Do you mean - Are the muscles that are normally used for the joint motion of ESR supplying forces actively, passively or supplying no forces as ESR occurs including accelerating?
What those muscles are doing probably changes during the stroke, as for the serve, so you should pick the part of the stroke and examine it in high speed video. The videos show joint motions, ESR, but don't show the muscle forces directly. You still get an idea of what is going on.
A player can probably know/feel when they are supplying active muscle forces for ESR. ? But the speed of fast motions may make the perception inaccurate. ? Stopping acceleration 6 inches before impact is very fast timing. For a racket head speed of 80 MPH the racket head moves 6 inches in about 4 milliseconds.
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Laugh. Yep.
My view on the "does ESR just happen?" thing: I may be excommunicated for saying it (again...) but I do not think it just happens in the early days. Eventually it will be automatic, driven mostly by inertia as you rotate forward. I also believe that the grooved expert version feels automatic, but that in fact a small amount of muscle is also automatically applied.
I can only describe this in terms of some actual player, so that you can look at it and evaluate my view, so the player is Federer, using any of the good slow motion complilations.
He takes the racquet back RH held high by his left hand. His hitting hand is on the grip, eastern. Note that his hitting hand being low and the racquet being nearly vertical actually requires that the wrist be bent back, "laid back," the eventual desirable position in lag!
He takes the racquet farther back after letting go with the off hand, and then lowers the hitting hand and racquet in such a way that most of the angle, most of the bent wrist, is kept. Just before launching forward rotation the hitting hand is out from his side about 30-40 degrees, and it is in line with his torso, his side. He's just about to pop his hand down to straighten his hitting arm.
He's been swinging his off arm leftward to give it momentum, and so to launch he does these, at least: He pulls in his off arm, extends his hitting-side leg, and also uses core muscles...all to accelerate his UB, get it rotating.
As his core rotates the racquet trails behind as his hitting hand pulls forward and a bit outward. The motion of the racquet back so that it lines up behind the grip is absolutely key. Does it "just happen" or does he consciously rotate his upper arm clockwise to make it go back?
Well, I'm not him so I don't know, but I can tell you this with utter confidence: If you intentionally rotate the upper arm back using just a tiny little bit of shoulder muscles....exactly as your torso begins to rotate forward, and you make sure not to tense up your wrist, forearm, upper arm ...and you did actually have your hitting arm/hand out from your side at least 30 or so degrees (key to getting the lockup effect at the shoulder)....and you leave the hitting arm behind thus rotated...you have started your forehand the most effective way....
Your rotating body will force your upper hitting arm to come around, and the racquet, too, butt cap first. You'll still be pulling in that off arm. You'll still be rotating your torso. You try to pull the butt cap outward toward the expected contact point (it isn't easy to do...) but at least pull it toward the income ball. The moment comes when your hitting hand has to curve more sharply leftward: The racquet has to pivot fast to keep up with the hand. The RH has to accelerate very fast ...and if you time it right you contact the ball just as the racquet head catches up, comes in line with the hand...and at that instant you do ISR, you rotate the hitting arm counterclocksie: this forces the racquet face to close a bit, rise a big, and move forward even faster.
That's my take on it: IF you intensionally rotate the hitting upper arm back (ESR) as I describe, it will eventually become automatic and you'll think "it just happens because my wrist is so relaxed." Ha! And if you want proof of the value of being able to do it intentionally, watch Federer going for a forehand at full stretch, full run, no possibility of leg launch and good UB rotation. You'll see him intentionally do ESR and then ISR to get some badly needed RH speed. I think it's educational to watch that bit.
[Another way to think of the pulling out of the grip butt-cap first is this: You're trying to pull the hand at the ball, at the expected contact point. Then at the last instant your hand pulls leftward and the RH goes where your hand previously was going, and bam, you hit the ball. This is one way in which the straight arm is easier...this "racquet head replacing the hand" works visually like a charm.]
To judge for yourself:
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
That is a very good compilation of Federer's straight arm forehand. Looks like considerable variety in his forehands, including the ESR & ISR. The camera angle is not ideal with his elbow blocked by his body through part of the stroke. ESR and supination can be hard for me to separate even with that clear high speed video.
(My Youtube will display at 25% speed and that is helpful.)
Jack Sock has an exaggerated bent elbow forehand and this camera angle shows his ESR. I'd say his ESR results from the upper body turn and not shoulder muscles.
In one of Elliott's books he discusses ESR & ISR on the forehand. I did not get a clear idea of how much ESR & ISR was used on average or on particular high paced strokes, or other forehands, etc,. I believe the book discussed that there was variety on how much was used. The book was dated 2009 and maybe forehands like Sock's are more common now. ?
How can we know the forehand variety among different players and the variety with each player's forehands?
(My Youtube will display at 25% speed and that is helpful.)
Jack Sock has an exaggerated bent elbow forehand and this camera angle shows his ESR. I'd say his ESR results from the upper body turn and not shoulder muscles.
In one of Elliott's books he discusses ESR & ISR on the forehand. I did not get a clear idea of how much ESR & ISR was used on average or on particular high paced strokes, or other forehands, etc,. I believe the book discussed that there was variety on how much was used. The book was dated 2009 and maybe forehands like Sock's are more common now. ?
How can we know the forehand variety among different players and the variety with each player's forehands?
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SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Both approaches are valid, even in the 21st century. For stances where there is a significant separation angle, hip rotation plays a lesser role or no role at all. The hips are preset, if you will, or already rotated. For stances where there is no separation angle (no offset) or where there is a relatively small angle, hip rotation is very important. This applies to serves & overheads as well as g'strokes.
I basically agree with you. The serve is a slightly different world, of course: Not getting hips rotating early will slow, drag, torso rotation, and servers as different as Sampras and Federer make sure to get the right hip up and around early.
In the forehand I suppose my summary was expressing a bias: I think getting set up open or semi-open and rotating back, getting separation, is the way to go if there's time.
My main goal, wish, is to free players to intentionally generate ESR just as rotation begins, without waiting for the magic day when the thing just happens as they totally relax the wrist and produce ferocious torso rotation. I'll stick with the description I gave as preferable to many. Intermediates are buffalo'd about ESR if they aren't "allowed" to intentionally create it.
I stand by the notion that players should learn to intentionally create ESR at the instant of torso rotation start. Once the racquet/arm is rolled back and the wrist is essentially protected against small muscle deviations ....the player has instant access to this, the degree to which his forward swing is going to have a flat path or a relatively steep on, depending on the ball...simply by forcing more extreme ESR to get the racquet lower for the steeper more extreme topsping path. It's a very common technique among pros. That extreme ESR path under, then up, combines with ISR to provide as much topspin as could be desired.
I have no argument against learning to power the hips around on a forehand. There are exotic methods. I've long found Nadal's practice of generating hip and torso rotation by both building separation, but then also, often time, adding to it by pushing the off-side hip back with thrust of his right leg, rather than driving the left hip forward with his left leg. It isn't easy to do.
NuBas
Legend
Nothing the OP said is secret, I thought everyone already knew that. Same thing in basketball, soccer, baseball, badminton, etc right?
Obviously you aim at the ball slowly and before hitting the ball you just ramp up the speed because you have already been slowly aiming and zoning in on the direction of your shot. Whatever happens afterwards is just a result of what has happened before such as in basketball your wrist relaxes downwards and in golf your swing naturally finishes over your shoulder.
What's everyone discussing about? LOL
Obviously you aim at the ball slowly and before hitting the ball you just ramp up the speed because you have already been slowly aiming and zoning in on the direction of your shot. Whatever happens afterwards is just a result of what has happened before such as in basketball your wrist relaxes downwards and in golf your swing naturally finishes over your shoulder.
What's everyone discussing about? LOL
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
The OP is talking about the last few milliseconds, or 6", before impact, not including the follow through. The OP is saying that acceleration and forces should stop 6" before impact. I have not seen that issue specifically stated before or discussed anywhere. I study high speed videos and believe that observing if acceleration has stopped 4 milliseconds before impact is difficult but could be measured. But I'm certain it's not generally known on this forum. The only research data that I've seen on this subject, with millisecond measurements, I posted in post #17.
geca has made some very interesting observations and analysis on another issue, ISR & ESR on the one hand backhand.
The OP subject is interesting for performing strokes and would relate to stresses that might cause injuries, for example, tennis elbow.
If you have any information on the forces and accelerations just before impact, please post.
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NuBas
Legend
Everyone accelerates before contact, I'm not sure if its that measurement the OP mentions but that shouldn't matter cause that's over analyzing something that happens normally. Still not entirely sure what the discussion is about.
a few additional notes on this -
a different way to convey this, to someone who is used to accelerating through the ball, is to imagine there is another ball flying to you 6 inches ahead of the real ball. i.e. 6 inches closer to you than the real ball. Now you perform your normal stroke trying to hit this imaginary ball, and let the follow-thru collide with the real ball.
also, experiment... 4 inches? a foot? whatever works best.
someone has expressed concern on control - when you first start hitting this way you will be long by 2 feet for a couple of weeks lol. once you dial in, control is no issue. (assuming the stroke itself is sound, i.e. pure windshield wiping motion, not some flipping action)
stress on the body - there should be less shock on the wrist and the arm, at the time of impact you are just coasting with a relaxed grip.... however due to the increased racket speed, i have had more blisters on the fingers.
a different way to convey this, to someone who is used to accelerating through the ball, is to imagine there is another ball flying to you 6 inches ahead of the real ball. i.e. 6 inches closer to you than the real ball. Now you perform your normal stroke trying to hit this imaginary ball, and let the follow-thru collide with the real ball.
also, experiment... 4 inches? a foot? whatever works best.
someone has expressed concern on control - when you first start hitting this way you will be long by 2 feet for a couple of weeks lol. once you dial in, control is no issue. (assuming the stroke itself is sound, i.e. pure windshield wiping motion, not some flipping action)
stress on the body - there should be less shock on the wrist and the arm, at the time of impact you are just coasting with a relaxed grip.... however due to the increased racket speed, i have had more blisters on the fingers.
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
Last night, I tired stopping acceleration - as I perceived it - 12" before impact. Easy to do first try.
But when I did that I consciously gave a nerve signal, EMG signal, to my muscles that should have controlled the Actin & Myosin system, stopping its forces. But there also are very likely stretched muscles when the signal to stop the Actin & Myosin forces took effect. Then, the elastic Titin in the sarcomeres might still continue supplying forces and acceleration. How to know that, I don't know. Or how it would feel. ? I believe Titin forces might be the mysterious 'free energy' sometimes mentioned for tennis strokes, with different feelings than the familiar effort of Actin & Myosin forces.
But when I did that I consciously gave a nerve signal, EMG signal, to my muscles that should have controlled the Actin & Myosin system, stopping its forces. But there also are very likely stretched muscles when the signal to stop the Actin & Myosin forces took effect. Then, the elastic Titin in the sarcomeres might still continue supplying forces and acceleration. How to know that, I don't know. Or how it would feel. ? I believe Titin forces might be the mysterious 'free energy' sometimes mentioned for tennis strokes, with different feelings than the familiar effort of Actin & Myosin forces.
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D
Deleted member 23235
Guest
i do like the nunchuk analogy... especially since i spent my youth hitting myself with one... ALOT
heninfan99
Talk Tennis Guru
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