Do polyester strings really contribute to tennis elbow?

[Happi]

In any case, from my experience, TE is caused 98~98% from technique issues, not gear.

This is a good read:

Collaborative Effort By Bob Patterson:

When it comes to poly strings, we all need to make sure adult recreational players and juniors know the facts. I speak to many manufacturers, coaches, and racquet technicians, and the consensus is that recreational adult players and junior players are using the wrong type of string, tension—or both.

Stiff polyester strings are prevalent in the marketplace and dominate the pro tours, but are they suited for the average club or league player? Most in this industry don’t think so.

First, the very benefit of poly strings is their ability to bend and snap back faster than other materials. This snapback enhances spin on the ball. A pro can swing out and get more spin on the ball while generating a heavier shot. You might think that would be the same for your average junior or club player, but it is most definitely not the case. Most players can’t generate enough racquet-head speed to bend stiff poly strings in the first place. If the string doesn't bend, it can’t snap back, and there is little or no spin enhancement. Many recreational players who switch to a poly never adjust their tension.

I’m always amazed to hear of a 3.5 adult or junior using a full poly set-up at high tensions. This is a surefire way for a player to hurt his or her arm.

Second, monofilament poly strings lose their elasticity—or the ability to snap back—much faster than nylon or other string materials. Since poly strings have a fairly dead feeling, to begin with, their decline is less noticeable for recreational players, who tend to not restring as often as they should, which only makes the problem worse.

Not only is poly string wrong for most recreational and junior players, it can be harmful. The stiffer string coupled with stiffer, lighter racquet creates much more shock to the player when the ball impacts the stringbed. In recent years, we’ve seen arm and wrist injuries sideline many top pros, and these athletes train and take every precaution to prevent injury. If we all know it is a problem, how do we fix it?

It starts with education: inform players about why they should alter their string set-up. It is better for their health and for their game. Manufacturers need to step up, too. It is easy to market a string their top sponsored player is using, but companies need to make rec players aware that string may not be best for everyone. Then they need to offer a softer, better-suited string.

The bottom line is that we all need to address this issue. Injured players play less, and may stop playing altogether.

And that’s not good for anyone. •

Bob Patterson:

Executive Director of
the U.S. Racquet Stringers Association.
Tennis Industry: Nov/Dec 2017

 

[movdqa]

In any case, from my experience, TE is caused 98~98% from technique issues, not gear.
Gear can definitely help indirectly, the way I explained above, but mostly a stiffer frame/stringbed will cause discomfort or even pain, particularly on an already injured area, but won't directly (and singlehandedly) cause the injury itself.

From my experience, it's caused by dead poly. Technique is the same when the strings exceed 8 hours but that's when my arm complains. Arm is fine when I switch to a racquet with fresh strings. This is ALU Power.

I switched to Hyper-G and can play about 25 hours with it and then it gets too loose to use. That I can play with Hyper-G without any problems for three times longer than ALU Power tells me that it's the string. At least in the case of very stiff strings.

There are other factors in my experience: stiff racquets and twistweight are big in my mind. I usually don't consider anything stiffer than 62 RA and I'm fine there but I can play with the RF97 with no problems and I think that's due to the relatively high twistweight.

 

[badmice2]

Poly alone doesn’t cause tennis elbow, dead strings is not a direct contributor to it either.

Technique if anything plays a major role with TE…it’s the notion that players are changing techniques to compensate for playability missing from the strings. It’s the same comparison as if you under tension poly.

 

[Happi]

Poly alone doesn’t cause tennis elbow, dead strings is not a direct contributor to it either.

You believe what you want, if you ever had a TE you will know.

 

[anarosevoli]

90% of players have not good technique. Can we FINALLY ignore this point?
Of the 90 % of players who don't have good technique predominantly the ones with poly strings and stiff racquets develop TE. Age also increases risk a little bit. Pure Drive/poly/> 40: ALL of them at my club have TE, but most don't believe me because there's always some "clever" person who tells them that it was not about the racquet but technique.
I had both TE and GE and I feel the very slightest beginning now. There's an exact point of combined stiffness (racquet, string, tension) that I tolerate.

 

[badmice2]

You believe what you want, if you ever had a TE you will know.

TE have been around before poly. Not sure how you think TE is exclusive to poly users.

 

[movdqa]

90% of players have not good technique. Can we FINALLY ignore this point?
Of the 90 % of players who don't have good technique predominantly the ones with poly strings and stiff racquets develop TE. Age also increases risk a little bit. Pure Drive/poly/> 40: ALL of them at my club have TE, but most don't believe me because there's always some "clever" person who tells them that it was not about the racquet but technique.
I had both TE and GE and I feel the very slightest beginning now. There's an exact point of combined stiffness (racquet, string, tension) that I tolerate.

This is my experience as well.

And even pros, which we assume have good technique, get GE and TE. Stan Smith had tennis elbow. He played with what would now be considered an ultra-flexible wood racquet, non-poly strings and had classic strokes, not the modern topspin strokes of today.

That threshold point was something that I was familiar with and for me it was string (dead poly after eight hours), racquet (stiffness, twistweight). I suppose that it could also be tension but I didn't try stringing it high enough to find out.

Another major factor for me is age though the Flexbar tends to negate that - I just have to keep up with the exercises.

 

[movdqa]

TE have been around before poly. Not sure how you think TE is exclusive to poly users.

The topic is that it contributes to it.

 

[badmice2]

The topic is that it contributes to it.

Therefore if Stan Smith can get TE through gut on wood rackets, or Navratilova can get TE off graphite racket using gut, and the tennis population was getting TE when syn gut and gut, doesn’t that speak volume about development of TE? For the players who are getting TE from poly, I’ll bet dollars for donuts they will still develop TE from switching strings. A mechanic can develop TE from turning a wrench too much, it has nothing to do with poly.

True stiffer rackets and strings plays some contributing factor, but someone needs to ask the question of technique and whether players are making technical changes to adjust to more powerful rackets and strings? Or are they still trying to load up with bad technique?

Moreover, if you’ve ever rehab from TE, your PT will tell you to work on grip strength, which is a major contributing factor to developing TE. The major cause of a tight grip? BAD TECHNIQUE.

 

[movdqa]

Therefore if Stan Smith can get TE through gut on wood rackets, or Navratilova can get TE off graphite racket using gut, and the tennis population was getting TE when syn gut and gut, doesn’t that speak volume about development of TE? For the players who are getting TE from poly, I’ll bet dollars for donuts they will still develop TE from switching strings. A mechanic can develop TE from turning a wrench too much, it has nothing to do with poly.

True stiffer rackets and strings plays some contributing factor, but someone needs to ask the question of technique and whether players are making technical changes to adjust to more powerful rackets and strings? Or are they still trying to load up with bad technique?

Moreover, if you’ve ever rehab from TE, your PT will tell you to work on grip strength, which is a major contributing factor to developing TE. The major cause of a tight grip? BAD TECHNIQUE.

I used ALU Power from about 2006 until three or four years ago when I switched to Hyper-G. I decided to go with Hyper-G because so many recommended it on the strings forum as being more arm friendly and durable. And I found this to be the case.

So I switched strings and don't have TE. I basically danced on the edge of it with ALU Power.

I started playing in the 1970s. I had TE problems in the late 1990s. I was using a racquet with RA 72 or 74 at the time and basically went on a search for racquets that were favored by racquetresearch.com. And it wasn't a problem for several years until I started playing with poly. But it took a few years to develop and I didn't know about dead poly. After a bad bout in 2010, I went with a flexible racquet, poly, and tension that wasn't too tight and that worked for several years until it didn't and then I found out about dead poly. So I went to replacing it after 8 hours and that got rid of the problem.

Switching to Hyper-G resulted in no arm issues, better tension maintenance, better spin, and lower cost. The only thing that I lost was feel. But the tradeoffs are worth it to me right now.

In the very large Redondo thread, a lot of people tried it because it was so soft and it was a refuge for those with tennis elbow. The main problem with the racquet was lack of power so people tried all sorts of things to improve the power on it. And eventually Pro Kennex stopped making them, probably due to low demand. People want to play pain-free; they just don't want to sacrifice a lot of playability for it. So we talk about racquets, strings, tension and where the threshold is for us to maximize playability while avoiding injury.

But it's nice when you find something that is a fairly good compromise that gives you arm health and playability. And it's a package deal: racquet, string, tension, technique, Flexbar, age.

 

[Miguelin]

This is a good read:

Collaborative Effort By Bob Patterson:

When it comes to poly strings, we all need to make sure adult recreational players and juniors know the facts. I speak to many manufacturers, coaches, and racquet technicians, and the consensus is that recreational adult players and junior players are using the wrong type of string, tension—or both.

Stiff polyester strings are prevalent in the marketplace and dominate the pro tours, but are they suited for the average club or league player? Most in this industry don’t think so.

First, the very benefit of poly strings is their ability to bend and snap back faster than other materials. This snapback enhances spin on the ball. A pro can swing out and get more spin on the ball while generating a heavier shot. You might think that would be the same for your average junior or club player, but it is most definitely not the case. Most players can’t generate enough racquet-head speed to bend stiff poly strings in the first place. If the string doesn't bend, it can’t snap back, and there is little or no spin enhancement. Many recreational players who switch to a poly never adjust their tension.

I’m always amazed to hear of a 3.5 adult or junior using a full poly set-up at high tensions. This is a surefire way for a player to hurt his or her arm.

Second, monofilament poly strings lose their elasticity—or the ability to snap back—much faster than nylon or other string materials. Since poly strings have a fairly dead feeling, to begin with, their decline is less noticeable for recreational players, who tend to not restring as often as they should, which only makes the problem worse.

Not only is poly string wrong for most recreational and junior players, it can be harmful. The stiffer string coupled with stiffer, lighter racquet creates much more shock to the player when the ball impacts the stringbed. In recent years, we’ve seen arm and wrist injuries sideline many top pros, and these athletes train and take every precaution to prevent injury. If we all know it is a problem, how do we fix it?

It starts with education: inform players about why they should alter their string set-up. It is better for their health and for their game. Manufacturers need to step up, too. It is easy to market a string their top sponsored player is using, but companies need to make rec players aware that string may not be best for everyone. Then they need to offer a softer, better-suited string.

The bottom line is that we all need to address this issue. Injured players play less, and may stop playing altogether.

And that’s not good for anyone. •

Bob Patterson:

Executive Director of
the U.S. Racquet Stringers Association.
Tennis Industry: Nov/Dec 2017

Very nice and interesting read, thanks for sharing it. I generally agree with it. I don't think that very stiff rackets and stringbeds are completely safe for anyone, they surely can harm some types of players. But I was specifically referring to tennis elbow, not injuries in general. Lateral epicondylitis is due to excessive and repetitive stress on your muscles on the upper/frontal side of your arm (probably not a very technical description but you know what I mean) and as a consequence on the tendon where these muscles are tied to the bone.
When you play with stiff stringbeds and/or frames, you may be able to NOTICE this injury when you misshit the ball or play with stiff gear because it hurts what normally just "tingled". But it normally doesn't go magically away when you change into a softer gear. You may not hurt on every single hit, but the injury will probably still be there.
I had TE quite recently, imo a very mild beginning of it, and even though it was mild and I did several recovery exercises, tried to change my technique, went down in string tension and racket weight, can't say I shifted to softer frames because I've always used mostly very thin and flexible rackets, even lowered the frequency of my tennis sessions and gave it a lot of rest ... All of that eventually worked, but after months of care and insistence. I'm not sure I'm even 100% fee of it.
So, just to make it clear, I think we all know that we got TE when we got it, but not any elbow pain due to playing tennis is tennis elbow, and if you have severe pain and it magically goes away just by changing gear, it was probably not tennis elbow (or the change of gear has produced a huge change in your technique).

 

[Miguelin]

90% of players have not good technique. Can we FINALLY ignore this point?
Of the 90 % of players who don't have good technique predominantly the ones with poly strings and stiff racquets develop TE. Age also increases risk a little bit. Pure Drive/poly/> 40: ALL of them at my club have TE, but most don't believe me because there's always some "clever" person who tells them that it was not about the racquet but technique.
I had both TE and GE and I feel the very slightest beginning now. There's an exact point of combined stiffness (racquet, string, tension) that I tolerate.

Good technique in the context of not harming yourself doesn't mean playing like Roger Federer. You can be a very mediocre player but still know the basics of how to swing a racket without putting too much stress on your body. In fact, you should.
So no, I don't think we should ignore this point. We should in fact insist more and clarify that there are actually some very simple things that will help you with preventing and recovering from TE that don't need hundreds of hours of practice and dollars of lessons, which is what most players think of when they hear "proper technique".
Things as simple as holding your racket with your non dominant hand in your ready position, and actually being in your ready position any time you're not swinging (or running like crazy ), or not raising your racket tip first on your serve, not gripping your handle too tight... Of course there are some more intricate stroke mechanics to be learned, but even those can be simplified to understand what part of the swing can actually hurt your elbow.
I've developed some of them myself when I had it (TE), just experimenting with which things hurt and which didn't.

Also, stiff gear can make injuries more noticeable, but maybe that doesn't necessarily mean it is the cause of the injury. But then again, maybe in your case it is.
This seems to be a very complex topic about which neither doctors or tennis coaches seem to have unanimously agreed on for decades, so most likely all points of view are partially right.

But, encouraging someone to learn proper technique, I don't think that's ever a bad advice. After all, gear may hurt you or may not, but proper technique definitely won't .

 

[Miguelin]

From my experience, it's caused by dead poly. Technique is the same when the strings exceed 8 hours but that's when my arm complains. Arm is fine when I switch to a racquet with fresh strings. This is ALU Power.

I switched to Hyper-G and can play about 25 hours with it and then it gets too loose to use. That I can play with Hyper-G without any problems for three times longer than ALU Power tells me that it's the string. At least in the case of very stiff strings.

There are other factors in my experience: stiff racquets and twistweight are big in my mind. I usually don't consider anything stiffer than 62 RA and I'm fine there but I can play with the RF97 with no problems and I think that's due to the relatively high twistweight.

After much research over the years, I'm yet not sure if "dead poly" is really any different from "notched poly". I mean... Even if some tension is lost, you wouldn't call a poly freshly strung at a lower tension "dead", right? It's actually (slightly) more lively than the tighter one. And I don't think polyester loses any elasticity over time –it actually gains some after the break-in period, but after that it shouldn't. Apart from "lateral" bending of the strings (and snapback), which is actually killed by notching.
So yes, the feeling changes. You may start getting less spin from the string, balls flying high and long, you lose confidence, start under-hiting. Your overall technique is the same, but you're trying different things to keep the ball in the court. You may start to swing more aggressively upwards. You may even, as a consequence of the change in your strokes, or tactics if you will, feel like the string has lost "power", because you may be driving less the ball (even if swinging faster).
That's why "dead" polys are described in so many different ways by players, some of them apparently contradictory.
Tennis is a very subjective, feed-back founded, sport. And players are often changing their strokes from one minute to the next depending on the feed-back they are getting from the racket and the ball's trajectory, even if inadvertently.

 

[tele]

After much research over the years, I'm yet not sure if "dead poly" is really any different from "notched poly". I mean... Even if some tension is lost, you wouldn't call a poly freshly strung at a lower tension "dead", right? It's actually (slightly) more lively than the tighter one. And I don't think polyester loses any elasticity over time –it actually gains some after the break-in period, but after that it shouldn't. Apart from "lateral" bending of the strings (and snapback), which is actually killed by notching.
So yes, the feeling changes. You may start getting less spin from the string, balls flying high and long, you lose confidence, start under-hiting. Your overall technique is the same, but you're trying different things to keep the ball in the court. You may start to swing more aggressively upwards. You may even, as a consequence of the change in your strokes, or tactics if you will, feel like the string has lost "power", because you may be driving less the ball (even if swinging faster).
That's why "dead" polys are described in so many different ways by players, some of them apparently contradictory.
Tennis is a very subjective, feed-back founded, sport. And players are often changing their strokes from one minute to the next depending on the feed-back they are getting from the racket and the ball's trajectory, even if inadvertently.

As you will be aware, the literature published about the relationship between tennis and lateral epicondylitis is very limited, and racquet/string stiffness is still hypothesized as a contributing factor to tennis elbow. According to the TWU article on "dead poly", as you stated, poly actually does not lose elasticity in the way many think. However the stringbed will transmit more shock when the poly can no longer slide over itself. The stiffer the stringbed, the more shock and vibration will be transmitted to your arm. Yes, you also have to change technique, but a multifilament or syn gut also loses tension with wear and locks up, reducing spin and control, which also requires changes in technique. However, you don't hear the same number complaints about TE from "dead multi" or "dead syn gut". Perhaps the way you change technique is different with soft strings, and that is why TE seems less common, but I suspect the increased shock and vibration from increased stiffness also plays a role.

Therefore if Stan Smith can get TE through gut on wood rackets, or Navratilova can get TE off graphite racket using gut, and the tennis population was getting TE when syn gut and gut, doesn’t that speak volume about development of TE? For the players who are getting TE from poly, I’ll bet dollars for donuts they will still develop TE from switching strings. A mechanic can develop TE from turning a wrench too much, it has nothing to do with poly.

True stiffer rackets and strings plays some contributing factor, but someone needs to ask the question of technique and whether players are making technical changes to adjust to more powerful rackets and strings? Or are they still trying to load up with bad technique?

Moreover, if you’ve ever rehab from TE, your PT will tell you to work on grip strength, which is a major contributing factor to developing TE. The major cause of a tight grip? BAD TECHNIQUE.

I completely agree that technique can be a major, if not the major, factor contributing TE. However, to use your example, just because a mechanic can get TE through twisting, it does not mean that twisting is the only action that can damage the lateral epicondyle. Regarding tighter grips, of course more shock and vibration will be transmitted down the arm if the grip on a tennis racquet is too tight, and the muscles will be overworked as the arm tries to combat twisting. However, if stiffer strings contribute to more shock and vibration to the arm, especially on mishits, which occur even with the best technique, why would that shock and vibration not potentially cause damage to the elbow? And if that is the case, couldn't strignbed stiffness plausibly be the main culprit in some people with "decent technique" developing tennis elbow? I would imagine tendon resilience varies depending on the player, making some more vulnerable to the impact of strings than others, even if technique is held constant. Of course, I am assuming you don't define "decent technique" as "that which does not cause tennis elbow", which would just create a circular argument.

 

[Tan Tennis]

Of course poly is the biggest factor but it may or may not need something else as well such as racket, tension, and technique. But I think we should leave technique out of discussion.

Give two rackets to a guy who has mediocre technique, one is a stiff racket with stiff poly strung at 60 lbs, and one with probably a Clash with multi at 45 lbs. Which one do you think that guy will develop tennis elbow from? It’s pretty obvious.

Yes tennis elbow has been around before poly, but the use of poly increases the likelihood of injuries (when combines with something else). As a stringer myself, I saw clients who developed tennis elbow, 95% is from poly strung too high or a dead poly. Restring those with something else and it’s gone.

 

[johnmccabe]

Techniques, overuse, equipment. The combination of these three things cant cross certain threshold for elbow. Poly can make it worse for sure. My techniques are definitely not the problem. Had healthy elbow for well over a year with soft racquet. Switched to stiffer racquet with multi poly hybrid for 3 months. No problem. Put stiff poly in the mains and played intensely for 8 hrs in 5 days. I need Motrin to keep going today.

 

[anarosevoli]

After much research over the years, I'm yet not sure if "dead poly" is really any different from "notched poly". I mean... Even if some tension is lost, you wouldn't call a poly freshly strung at a lower tension "dead", right? It's actually (slightly) more lively than the tighter one. And I don't think polyester loses any elasticity over time –it actually gains some after the break-in period, but after that it shouldn't. Apart from "lateral" bending of the strings (and snapback), which is actually killed by notching.

This is completely idiotic. You don't even understand the fundamentals but feel the need to write insufferably lengthy posts.
We really can't start a discussion about if poly loses elasticity over time only because you don't believe it.

 

[Icsa]

Poly strings lose elasticity until there's none left, and this causes many cases of tennis elbow (TE) in recreational tennis. The string’s elasticity provides power, energy return, and shock absorption. When the strings are completely dead, all the shocks are transmitted to the racquet and your elbow. The lack of power also forces the player to hit harder, further amplifying the shocks. While other factors like racquet stiffness, grip tightness, shot technique, and string notching also play a role, a dead string that doesn't bend anymore is the primary source of TE.

Recreational players often don't realize that poly strings go dead after just a few hours, even if they still look "like new." Many continue using them for 6-12 months or longer, which leads to elbow, arm, or shoulder pain. Just pay attention to how many of them use a tennis elbow brace, confident that it will cure their pain. The simple solution is to restring often.

However, restringing costs can be a concern, which exacerbates the TE problem. In some areas, it costs $30 to restring a racquet plus $20 for the string because everyone wants Alu Power, plus taxes. This adds up quickly if you follow the frequent restringing schedule that more serious players recommend. For this reason, I started advising recreational players who don't hit hard to switch to synthetic strings. Once they find the right tension, synthetic strings can last a very long time without breaking. As long as they don't complain to me that the strings are getting stuck out of place

 

[Miguelin]

This is completely idiotic. You don't even understand the fundamentals but feel the need to write insufferably lengthy posts.
We really can't start a discussion about if poly loses elasticity over time only because you don't believe it.

No need to be disrespectful. I didn't say I don't believe it, as in refusing to believe the things I read. I said all the literature I've read led me to think it doesn't lose elasticity. If you have some source that claims something different other than your subjective impressions please share, I'll be genuinely thankful.
Sorry for the insufferable posts. I do enjoy reading and writing here, but I'll keep it brief in your case from now on.

 

[USPTARF97]

The only thing that surprises me is that people can’t tell the difference on which setups are more taxing on the arm. I can hit 3-5 balls and tell which one causes more stress on the arm.
Put RPM blast in your frame at 55 and then put Babaolat Touch in the frame at the same tension. One of these is much easier on your arm.

 

[Tan Tennis]

After much research over the years, I'm yet not sure if "dead poly" is really any different from "notched poly". I mean... Even if some tension is lost, you wouldn't call a poly freshly strung at a lower tension "dead", right? It's actually (slightly) more lively than the tighter one. And I don't think polyester loses any elasticity over time –it actually gains some after the break-in period, but after that it shouldn't. Apart from "lateral" bending of the strings (and snapback), which is actually killed by notching.
So yes, the feeling changes. You may start getting less spin from the string, balls flying high and long, you lose confidence, start under-hiting. Your overall technique is the same, but you're trying different things to keep the ball in the court. You may start to swing more aggressively upwards. You may even, as a consequence of the change in your strokes, or tactics if you will, feel like the string has lost "power", because you may be driving less the ball (even if swinging faster).
That's why "dead" polys are described in so many different ways by players, some of them apparently contradictory.
Tennis is a very subjective, feed-back founded, sport. And players are often changing their strokes from one minute to the next depending on the feed-back they are getting from the racket and the ball's trajectory, even if inadvertently.

I think it depends on what that poly is. For something like Hyper G for example, when it goes dead it just become very bouncy and powerful, in that case, more elasticity and I don’t think many people get injuries from it. But for something like RPM Blast, after it passes the trampoline tension loss period, it goes dead and becomes very stiff, so less elasticity?

 

[ppma]

If antything, dead polyester would prevent TE instead of causing of favouring it.

A used polyester is not a polyester that has increased its stiffness (lost part of its flexibility as read many times), but one that has lost tension due to having been permanently stretched over its original lenght, which in reality results in a more elastic feel at contact.

I've got TE and it always have come as a result of hitting with the arm in an unstable position causing an overuse of the tendons. Could've less severe with gut/syn? Maybe, but would have happened too.

 

[johnmccabe]

The only thing that surprises me is that people can’t tell the difference on which setups are more taxing on the arm. I can hit 3-5 balls and tell which one causes more stress on the arm.
Put RPM blast in your frame at 55 and then put Babaolat Touch in the frame at the same tension. One of these is much easier on your arm.

That's a great way to tell who is a new player. Just bouncing the ball up in the air a few times from outside the sweet spot usually will tell how arm friendly it is.

 

[fritzhimself]

I don't have a recipe for TE either. (apart from changing strings in good time)
What I observe with our seniors (70 and older) is that they only hit (rather push) in (super) slow motion anyway and play a poly (none of our oldies want Syn Gut!) for at least a year.
They like to use OS frames.
But they play doubles almost every day (at least 3 times a week) and push the balls to each other.
So watching it is more of a deceleration like an entertaining game of tennis. The serve is more of a throw-in, so there are no huge forces acting on the strings.
But what always amazes me - the string is definitely dead when it comes to stringing - I usually string when the thing is broken.
They must have been playing with a hammock for half the season (usually with old balls).
And I saved the best for last: until the start of Covid19, I had changed the grip tape every time I restrung.
I then stopped doing this and noticed that many older players never change the overgrip.
Recently someone asked if you can also change the overgrip and don't have to have a new string, they didn't look at the (dead) string, but when they need a new grip.
Some see on the sticker that the string has been in for 1 year and (have heard) that the string should then be replaced.
I would also like to add that the date and stringing stiffness of every newly strung racquet is clearly marked with a sticker on the frame.
It is therefore clear to me, and I have observed this over many years, that tennis elbow cannot occur with low ball acceleration and therefore only hard hitters may be affected.

 

[Miguelin]

I think it depends on what that poly is. For something like Hyper G for example, when it goes dead it just become very bouncy and powerful, in that case, more elasticity and I don’t think many people get injuries from it. But for something like RPM Blast, after it passes the trampoline tension loss period, it goes dead and becomes very stiff, so less elasticity?

We should first differentiate between stiffness and elasticity. They are not opposed terms. Both poliester and polyamide (such as nylon) tennis strings are almost equally elastic. That means they regain their shape at a similar rate after a deformation, losing a similar amount of energy in the process. In fact both strings would be almost equally powerful if the tennis ball was much more stiffer. 5% of energy is lost on the strings, but almost half is lost on the ball, so that means the one of the two that deforms the most (the less stiff) will dictate how much overall energy is lost. For an infinitely stiff ball, 95% of energy would be recovered after the collision.
Now, nothing is perfectly elastic. There is always some degree of plastic (permanent) deformation and hence energy loss. In tennis strings, that plastic deformation is translated into a longer length at rest, so for the same "strung" length, lower tension (as the relative deformation would be smaller). That's why strings lose tension after hundreds of hits (stretch-recovery cicles).
Lower tension means lower stiffness (the force needed to further deform the string is smaller, by Hook's law). Lower stiffness means more power.
So becoming more stiff after losing tension would actually be paradoxical.
Now, polys, even though they are stiffer than most strings, have the property that they are very slippery (partially because of their stiffness, that avoids strings to "bite" into each other), and so strings bend and recover both perpendicularly an parallel to the stringbed, giving a two dimensional elastic response so to speak, that may be perceived by the player as "softer" or more dampened.
RPM blast may become apparently more stiff when dead than Hyper-G because H-G manages to retain some slipperiness after notching better than RPMB. RPMB, like ALU-P, are "pro tier" strings, which is not necessarily a good thing for recreational players. They focus more in creating a coating for their strings that excels in performance rather than in durability, because pros bring 7-8 different freshly strung rackets to a match, and even can have the luxury of having their rackets strung mid-match in some tournaments, so they couldn't care less for the durability of their strings.
That's precisely why Hyper-G was such a big hit, because they managed to maintain it's playability for way longer than other Tier A strings, and suddenly all the semi-pro players and coaches were sporting this new and pretty recognisable neon-green string. Because they can't afford daily restringing, as can't most of us.

So yes, most likely RPM and HG both become softer after notching (going dead), but RPM feels stiffer or deader because it locks up the stringbed sooner, while HG maintains its slipperiness long enough for you to notice the drop in tension.

Also, even though it's true that polyester generally loses tension faster than nylon, the difference is not as bad as most people think. Tension loss actually varies a lot from some polys to others, but the better performers are pretty close to the polyamides, if not better than some. What is believed about polys though, is that there is a break-in period (true), which may be what you call the "trampoline tension loss period", and then they go close to flat-line for a time, and then they suddenly lose tension abruptly, or "go dead".
If you look at the data from tests in TW University, you can see that the first two phases are true not only for polys, but for all strings. The third "abrupt drop" phase though is not shown anywhere, even after several thousands of hits.
So the most likely reason for this "abrupt" change is that the threshold where the friction becomes enough to don't let the string recover its position (laterally) in the stringbed has been trespassed.

You may also see some analogies around explaining how when you stretch too much a spring, for example, there is a threshold where it loses its recovering (elastic) capacity. This is of course true, but I don't really think that is the case for tennis strings (of any kind), as, while they are losing tension, every tennis ball hit actually becomes softer and softer, as they induce a smaller relative (to rest) deformation in the string when the tension is lower (even if the actual stretch is greater relative to its tensioned state). So evey consecutive tennis hit is less and less likely of breaching that elastic threshold.

 

[anarosevoli]

So becoming more stiff after losing tension would actually be paradoxical.

Can you finally stop? All your insufferable bs is based on the fact that you don't understand that loss of elasticity leads to elongation of strings which means that both tension and elasticity become lower with time.
Learn this simple fact!

 

[ppma]

So becoming more stiff after losing tension would actually be paradoxical.

Yes. Thanks. At least some rational insight on the subject.

elasticity become lower with time.

What does that mean? That the amount of (elastic) deformation they can undergo while hitting is smaller? That is true for the material, but the constraints (the strung racquet at an initial tension) matters to. So, in polys the lower tension after long use leads to exactly the opposite, larger deformations under the same (ball) dynamic loads. The amount of available elastic elongation before rupture might be smaller, and usually so it is the young Modulus (you won't find many materials that experience an increase of Young modulus with stress load), which means a less stiff but less elastic string. In any case, the feeling of polys with time of use is softer, not harsher.

Don't fool yourselves. Frequent use of poly is good only for semi-pro and above hard hitters that need playability and feel consistency in their equipment. If any, frequent change of poly would make hitting more harsh to the arm/wrist than keeping the string form much time.

 

[Miguelin]

Can you finally stop? All your insufferable bs is based on the fact that you don't understand that loss of elasticity leads to elongation of strings which means that both tension and elasticity become lower with time.
Learn this simple fact!

1- Mate, if you don't like my insufferable bs, don't read it.
2- Maybe you speak from your personal experience, but I'm an engineer in Materials Science and I can tell you that's not how elasticity works. I could try to briefly explain why to you, but you don't deserve it and probably are not interested in the explanation anyway.
3- All the serious literature in the matter, like books/articles from Brody, Cross and Lindsay, or posts in the TWU, back my explanations. So look them up, stop bullying and let the rest of us merrily talk tennis.

 

[Icsa]

Now, nothing is perfectly elastic. There is always some degree of plastic (permanent) deformation

So becoming more stiff after losing tension would actually be paradoxical.

So much "science" talk ignoring the real data.

If there is always some degree of permanent deformation, then by the same logic, the string will reach a point where it lost most of its elasticity. Nobody denies that the string will first experience tension loss and thus feel more "powerful". But that process of permanent deformation doesn't stop. Once the elasticity is lost, that is when the string will stop returning energy to the ball translating into loss of power and higher shocks transmitted to the person holding the racquet.

We don't need "science" that tries to tell us otherwise. The fact is if I hit with a racquet with an old poly, there is less power, it is harsh and it hurts badly. When I restring the racquet with the same type of string and same initial tension, power is back and the pain is gone.

You may be a science engineer, and maybe there is some conflicting terminology - maybe what we call elasticity loss, you call material fatigue. But you are missing the point. The question is: do poly strings contribute to tennis elbow? The answer is undeniable yes based on real data. If you want to shows us that you are a good material science engineer then demonstrate to us why the answer is yes rather than trying to deny reality.

 

[Shroud]

So much "science" talk ignoring the real data.

If there is always some degree of permanent deformation, then by the same logic, the string will reach a point where it lost most of its elasticity. Nobody denies that the string will first experience tension loss and thus feel more "powerful". But that process of permanent deformation doesn't stop. Once the elasticity is lost, that is when the string will stop returning energy to the ball translating into loss of power and higher shocks transmitted to the person holding the racquet.

We don't need "science" that tries to tell us otherwise. The fact is if I hit with a racquet with an old poly, there is less power, it is harsh and it hurts badly. When I restring the racquet with the same type of string and same initial tension, power is back and the pain is gone.

You may be a science engineer, and maybe there is some conflicting terminology - maybe what we call elasticity loss, you call material fatigue. But you are missing the point. The question is: do poly strings contribute to tennis elbow? The answer is undeniable yes based on real data. If you want to shows us that you are a good material science engineer then demonstrate to us why the answer is yes rather than trying to deny reality.

I think you might be talking about when a poly bed notches and locks. If a string is stretched too much it gets more and more powerful. If it locks the strings don’t snapback, its harsher and launch angle is lower giving the impression of less power.

 

[esgee48]

@Shroud, many posters confuse our phrase 'removing permanent elongation' means removing all elongation. What we imply is you stretch the string until it cannot be stretch any more by the hardest ball impact you can generate. The string still has elasticity in it cuz you can't it deform any more via ball impacts. Stiffness goes way up which is expected. So you have to decrease tension which logically follows. For example 4G 1.30 has stiffness rating in excess of 300 #/in. Stiffening it to 350 #/in hits the range where only the most powerful pros could perhaps stretch it permanently via hitting.

 

[Icsa]

I think you might be talking about when a poly bed notches and locks. If a string is stretched too much it gets more and more powerful. If it locks the strings don’t snapback, its harsher and launch angle is lower giving the impression of less power.

While some strings do get notches and lock, further contributing to harshness, I'm lucky enough to discover a string that doesn't notch for me, at least the crosses are not notching allowing the mains to freely move side-to-side. So the harshness I'm talking about is from material fatigue after long usage. I don't know what is the correct term for it - loss of elasticity, brittleness, loss of playability etc - the fact is an old beat-up poly does hurt and it feels harsh.

While some poly users change poly early because the strings got loose and they lost control, a larger number recommend frequent restringing to avoid injury. Why would they do that if it wasn't true?

PS: I'm not here to win an argument. At the end of the day anyone can play with the same poly string for as long as they want without restringing if they choose to do so. But it will be unfair for a new player to be disinformed that the pain they are experiencing playing with that 1 year old poly is only because they don't have a good technique. Poly is stiff to start with but it will get worse when it reaches its end of life.

 

[esgee48]

I tell my experienced clients to track the number of hitting sessions. Most come back to me around session 16-20 saying strings are not snapping back. I look at the stringbed and see if there is notching or damage. if none, i will clean the stringbed and move the strings manually. Then check tension with RT. If RT says tension is 40# and original was 48#, I tell them these facts. Sarcastically I ask them why they dont break strings the way they use to. Some opt not to restring for another week; others want more feel so ask for restring.

Good clients know from experience when to restring even if strings are still showing signs of life.

 

[Miguelin]

So much "science" talk ignoring the real data.

Real data is called science. I'm not saying players feedback is not true or useful, it is both things. But it's also subjective, and when we share our impressions without isolated testing of measurable magnitudes, and/or objective data collection and correlation, sometimes we arrive at conclusions that don't really explain the matter, they may turn into myths accepted by most, and maybe jump into further inaccurate conclusions.

We don't need "science" that tries to tell us otherwise. The fact is if I hit with a racquet with an old poly, there is less power, it is harsh and it hurts badly. When I restring the racquet with the same type of string and same initial tension, power is back and the pain is gone.

That is absolutely right. Your personal experience is by far the most accurate guideline for your own game, which is a complex and unique system formed by gear, technique, physique and psyche.
Nevertheless other players may experience it differently (like OP), and even if they are a minority, I think this raises and interesting and relevant question.

You may be a science engineer, and maybe there is some conflicting terminology - maybe what we call elasticity loss, you call material fatigue. But you are missing the point. The question is: do poly strings contribute to tennis elbow? The answer is undeniable yes based on real data. If you want to shows us that you are a good material science engineer then demonstrate to us why the answer is yes rather than trying to deny reality.

No, I don't think I'm missing the point, that's the first thing I tried to address. You claim the answer is "undeniably yes based on real data". I'm not sure what real data you're talking about. Has there been any study correlating TE injuries and polyester monofilament use? Or do you mean there is an immense amount of testimonies saying poly is harsh on their elbows/arms, and changing to something softer automatically solves the problem?

As there are some testimonies saying otherwise (like OP's), I think there may be some relation between gear, personal technique and TE beyond poly = bad that would be interesting to understand.

But first of all, let me clarify something: a stiffer string always means more shock, a harsher feel, and definitely can produce pain and most likely, injuries. I've felt it myself.
Now, tennis elbow is a very specific injury. One I also experienced. My TE was relatively mild. It didn't impede me from playing (so I also got a good feedback of which things hurt and which didn't). I worked hard on the recovery for months, and also tried lighter rackets (I think heavy rackets + bad technique was my personal ticket to TE), lower tensions, hybrid setups. None of my strings has more than 5-6 hours of play.
And even though I've been playing almost pain-free for months already, sometimes if I clench the fingers too tight, I still feel a little sting from time to time.
So, when anyone claims he got TE and it magically/automatically went away after changing gear, I'm inevitably suspicious.
Sometimes people feel pain in the elbow while playing tennis, and assume (understandably) it's TE. Sometimes people complain about pain in the elbow, and others would assume or understand erroneously it's TE. That's why I think the "real world data" about poly giving TE may need a revision, if this data is based on individual testimonies, rather than a correlation between diagnosed injuries vs. gear used.

TE is like dreaming/real life: if you're feeling pain, you have doubts whether it may be or not. If you have TE, you have no doubts it is.
I've definitely had it, and in my experience, no gear change will magically cure it. Gear changes may surely help avoid it and recover. Which gear changes may vary on each player's level and technique though.
I'm no doctor, but from what I've read (and experienced), TE is caused by excessive and repetitive muscular stress. It is unclear shock and vibrations play any role in TE in particular, although I find reasonable to think that shock and vibrations may be more painful when some injury is already present, whether they played any role in its causing or not.
The discussion about gear and TE has been around for ages. People don't seem to come into a general agreement. That makes me think there isn't one perfect solution, and that it may depend on each individual's game.

If I had to give one recommendation (based 90% in personal experience) it would be to use lighter rackets. But there are physicians out there claiming heavy rackets will help because they absorb more shock and/or they are gripped more loosely as they are more stable at impact. Same for racket stiffness and strings. The correct answer may need to be tailored for each of us.

But I think it's important to understand that TE comes mainly from muscle stress, i.e. the way you swing and hold you racket. Gear of course has an impact on this as well.

--Fun fact: the harshest racket I've played with lately, if not so far, was an old wooden racket strung (I'd say) with old natgut spoiled down to ~14kg (31 lbs). It was the softest strinbed I've pumped my hand into. Of course the harshness came from me swinging it like it was an aero for fun and not being able to get more than 1 in every ~20 balls on the centre of the ~67 in² head.

 

[Shroud]

While some strings do get notches and lock, further contributing to harshness, I'm lucky enough to discover a string that doesn't notch for me, at least the crosses are not notching allowing the mains to freely move side-to-side. So the harshness I'm talking about is from material fatigue after long usage. I don't know what is the correct term for it - loss of elasticity, brittleness, loss of playability etc - the fact is an old beat-up poly does hurt and it feels harsh.

While some poly users change poly early because the strings got loose and they lost control, a larger number recommend frequent restringing to avoid injury. Why would they do that if it wasn't true?

PS: I'm not here to win an argument. At the end of the day anyone can play with the same poly string for as long as they want without restringing if they choose to do so. But it will be unfair for a new player to be disinformed that the pain they are experiencing playing with that 1 year old poly is only because they don't have a good technique. Poly is stiff to start with but it will get worse when it reaches its end of life.

For one I think the rec to restring is just the industry driving business. They are promoting strings that die fast and need to be restrung. They are also promoting light stiff racquets and small grips. Its all a recipe for te imho…

As far as arguments, no one wins on TT .

Fwiw I play with kev/4g at 86lbs in stiff racquets 70+ Technique is not the best as a rec player but no arm issues. Often restring just the cross when balls start to fly. I manually prestretch strings to elongation before stringing. So on one hand I should have arm issues from string/tension and bad technique but I don’t.

My 2 cents is that my huge grip and super high swingweight protect me and I could play with almost any string with no elbow issues.

 

[Shroud]

@Shroud, many posters confuse our phrase 'removing permanent elongation' means removing all elongation. What we imply is you stretch the string until it cannot be stretch any more by the hardest ball impact you can generate. The string still has elasticity in it cuz you can't it deform any more via ball impacts. Stiffness goes way up which is expected. So you have to decrease tension which logically follows. For example 4G 1.30 has stiffness rating in excess of 300 #/in. Stiffening it to 350 #/in hits the range where only the most powerful pros could perhaps stretch it permanently via hitting.

Thanks man. Yeah I don’t understand…

 

[Icsa]

Fwiw I play with kev/4g at 86lbs in stiff racquets 70+ Technique is not the best as a rec player but no arm issues. Often restring just the cross when balls start to fly. I manually prestretch strings to elongation before stringing. So on one hand I should have arm issues from string/tension and bad technique but I don’t.

My 2 cents is that my huge grip and super high swingweight protect me and I could play with almost any string with no elbow issues.

Well, but you confirmed that you are restringing often, so you are not playing with dead poly...

Also, not sure if your experience can be generalized since you are playing with Thor's hammer:

 

[Shroud]

Well, but you confirmed that you are restringing often, so you are not playing with dead poly...

Also, not sure if your experience can be generalized since you are playing with Thor's hammer:

Often? Not sure how to define that and not sure jow often I restring. Its months for sure.

Its like when the chick could use his hammer. She didn’t quite look like him…

 

[Fintft]

I tell my experienced clients to track the number of hitting sessions. Most come back to me around session 16-20 saying strings are not snapping back. I look at the stringbed and see if there is notching or damage. if none, i will clean the stringbed and move the strings manually. Then check tension with RT. If RT says tension is 40# and original was 48#, I tell them these facts. Sarcastically I ask them why they dont break strings the way they use to. Some opt not to restring for another week; others want more feel so ask for restring.

Good clients know from experience when to restring even if strings are still showing signs of life.

Speaking about cleaning: My poly crosses seemed dead last week, but I've ...waxed the gut mains (something I used to do to clean it of chips) and the crosses and it felt better.
Meanwhile I got 3 more racquets, 2 of which are in my rotation and freshly strung, so I haven't restrung the crosses in the orginal one(also after consulting with the certified stringer).

 

[Miguelin]

While some strings do get notches and lock, further contributing to harshness, I'm lucky enough to discover a string that doesn't notch for me, at least the crosses are not notching allowing the mains to freely move side-to-side.

It's the mains that get notched. Crosses get filed (multis) or "polished" (polys). Soft crosses may get a little dent, but not because of use, just for stringbed tension.
A notched main will always get eventually "locked", even if you strung new crosses, due to greater friction. When I say "lock", I don't mean they don't move at all, only that they don't snap back. So for me, the way to tell a dead poly is when the stringbed gets "messy" (out of place mains).
Some oil infused strings like Poly Tour Fire/Rev or ReString Zero/Sync actually manage to retain the snapback for quite long, and they feel softer when old, I'd say.
What's that string that you found?
And do you feel like it gets stiffer even if the mains are coming back into place?

Well, but you confirmed that you are restringing often, so you are not playing with dead poly...

I guess he meant that when he restrings, he often just did the crosses. He also said he restrung the (4G poly, I assume) crosses when balls started flying. So, poly goes soft?
Also I would be surprised if a guy that plays with Kevlar and 4G is really restringing often.
And also, he's playing with Kevlar at 86 lbs! For the love of god! I don't think dead poly can beat that...

My 2 cents is that my huge grip and super high swingweight protect me and I could play with almost any string with no elbow issues.

Please, we (or at least I) need to know the numbers for grip size and SW.
I can see why SW would protect you from the monstrous setup (kev/4g at 86 lbs!!! and 70+ RA), but the grip size... I have an L5 and had a really difficult time serving with it. It slipped from my hand everytime. And I usually play with L4 + overgrip or L3 + 2 ogs, not like I'm used to bare L2. Do you use a very flared buttcap a la Gasquet?

And definitely, grip pressure makes TE worse, so I'd say your case defies almost every opinion regarding TE prevention, so I'm not sure what to do with it! Lol. Maybe you don't have as bad technique as you think (at least the relevant parts to not hurt yourself), maybe you're a beast of an athlete, maybe you don't play as often to get hurt (seriously doubt this last one for a guy using kevlar). Or maybe you're just trolling us for fun haha!

Oh and regarding restringing just the cross, I would really recommend to (just don't do that but if you really want to) put the racket in the machine to fix the hoop before you cut the crosses, if you are not already doing it. Maybe with very stiff frames, you won't notice head deformation, but I'd say with the mains at 86 lbs there is a serious risk of your frame breaking.

 

[Kevo]

Heavy racquets are great for reducing shock. I have experimented with swing weights in the 400+ range a couple of times. It's great for ground strokes and volleys, but I can't serve the way I want with it and it's too much work when playing doubles and spending most of the time at net. So I tend to stick around 325-330 on swing weight. I got to say though if you get a chance to hit with a monster stick like that you should try some groundies with it at least. It's definitely an experience to be had.

 

[Shroud]

It's the mains that get notched. Crosses get filed (multis) or "polished" (polys). Soft crosses may get a little dent, but not because of use, just for stringbed tension.
A notched main will always get eventually "locked", even if you strung new crosses, due to greater friction. When I say "lock", I don't mean they don't move at all, only that they don't snap back. So for me, the way to tell a dead poly is when the stringbed gets "messy" (out of place mains).
Some oil infused strings like Poly Tour Fire/Rev or ReString Zero/Sync actually manage to retain the snapback for quite long, and they feel softer when old, I'd say.
What's that string that you found?
And do you feel like it gets stiffer even if the mains are coming back into place?

I guess he meant that when he restrings, he often just did the crosses. He also said he restrung the (4G poly, I assume) crosses when balls started flying. So, poly goes soft?
Also I would be surprised if a guy that plays with Kevlar and 4G is really restringing often.
And also, he's playing with Kevlar at 86 lbs! For the love of god! I don't think dead poly can beat that...

Please, we (or at least I) need to know the numbers for grip size and SW.
I can see why SW would protect you from the monstrous setup (kev/4g at 86 lbs!!! and 70+ RA), but the grip size... I have an L5 and had a really difficult time serving with it. It slipped from my hand everytime. And I usually play with L4 + overgrip or L3 + 2 ogs, not like I'm used to bare L2. Do you use a very flared buttcap a la Gasquet?

And definitely, grip pressure makes TE worse, so I'd say your case defies almost every opinion regarding TE prevention, so I'm not sure what to do with it! Lol. Maybe you don't have as bad technique as you think (at least the relevant parts to not hurt yourself), maybe you're a beast of an athlete, maybe you don't play as often to get hurt (seriously doubt this last one for a guy using kevlar). Or maybe you're just trolling us for fun haha!

Oh and regarding restringing just the cross, I would really recommend to (just don't do that but if you really want to) put the racket in the machine to fix the hoop before you cut the crosses, if you are not already doing it. Maybe with very stiff frames, you won't notice head deformation, but I'd say with the mains at 86 lbs there is a serious risk of your frame breaking.

For the grip it measures 6” circumference which is L16 if you do the math I think. I have gone up since this vid but this shows the handle. Its more rectangular with the odd bevels being built up:

No flare.

So fwiw I don’t have to grip tight at all. Its a lose grip and it just fits in the hand. The shape probably helps. So that idea of my case defying TE is wrong. I don’t have to grip tight at all

Sw is 459 measured on the briffedi sw1 machine. Though recently i started skipping the crosses so its a bit less now.

1. Technique is ok but not great. When I post vids I always get the “hitting too late” comment and “prep earlier” among other things. Bh is one handed and I get all kind of crap about using esr on it but its one of my best strokes. Don’t switch grips between bh and fh so I actually hit some good drive returns. Here is a point where I am returning:

2. Old out of shape guy. Muscle loss is a thing and if you never had it its doubly bad…

3. True. Only play 1-2 times a week now. Sadly its been just 3-4 sets of doubles a week. Was playing more singles and miss it. Certainly helps with arm/ shoulder stress but its a double edged sword. Not playing makes it easier to get hurt too. Knock on wood.

4. Nah man its all true. No trolling

Been stringing just crosses for more than 10 years now and yes its good advice to mount the racquet before cutting the crosses. Kevlar doesn’t really stretch so the frames are all good. Only one frame died and it was from a pulled through grommet- was a profile and i stupidly thought tubing would work like a grommet. Not the only dude to have that happen on the Profile- even normal tension string jobs can pull through a Profile. Racquets are way tougher than they used to be.

Anyhow you are correct about not breaking strings. Used to all the time but kev/4g is tough to break and starts spraying before it breaks anyhow. I did have a full 4g bed and same with that. Restrung before it broke.

 

[mike schiffer]

So it goes....Complicated TE stories with no real conclusion....I must say that MASSAGE was the magic bullet for my chronic TE....a firm muscle lengthening kneading of the upper forearm that always gets super stiff after a tennis session is essential to elbow health......theres a video on YT....it cures my endless TE problem along with my use of 60 RA frames, soft multi string and espesh no poly for me....try massaging out that firm muscle on top of the arm all the way from the wrist to the elbow joint ...trying to seemingly lengthen and relaxing that muscle group....it will soften and relax with steady applied kneading of the tissues and that keeps me out of the doctors office....I play with heavy topspin on both sides and practice on the wall constantly to refine my technique so there's no pain and my footwork is correct......playing with pain is not an option for me(even a little)

 

[Miguelin]

For the grip it measures 6” circumference which is L16 if you do the math I think. I have gone up since this vid but this shows the handle. Its more rectangular with the odd bevels being built up:

No flare.

So fwiw I don’t have to grip tight at all. Its a lose grip and it just fits in the hand. The shape probably helps. So that idea of my case defying TE is wrong. I don’t have to grip tight at all

Sw is 459 measured on the briffedi sw1 machine. Though recently i started skipping the crosses so its a bit less now.

1. Technique is ok but not great. When I post vids I always get the “hitting too late” comment and “prep earlier” among other things. Bh is one handed and I get all kind of crap about using esr on it but its one of my best strokes. Don’t switch grips between bh and fh so I actually hit some good drive returns. Here is a point where I am returning:

2. Old out of shape guy. Muscle loss is a thing and if you never had it its doubly bad…

3. True. Only play 1-2 times a week now. Sadly its been just 3-4 sets of doubles a week. Was playing more singles and miss it. Certainly helps with arm/ shoulder stress but its a double edged sword. Not playing makes it easier to get hurt too. Knock on wood.

4. Nah man its all true. No trolling

Been stringing just crosses for more than 10 years now and yes its good advice to mount the racquet before cutting the crosses. Kevlar doesn’t really stretch so the frames are all good. Only one frame died and it was from a pulled through grommet- was a profile and i stupidly thought tubing would work like a grommet. Not the only dude to have that happen on the Profile- even normal tension string jobs can pull through a Profile. Racquets are way tougher than they used to be.

Anyhow you are correct about not breaking strings. Used to all the time but kev/4g is tough to break and starts spraying before it breaks anyhow. I did have a full 4g bed and same with that. Restrung before it broke.

Sweet mother of god. I was expecting something crazy and yet you managed to surprise me.
I would never recommend big handles or high Swingweights to anyone for preventing/curing TE. But I guess maybe your case is so exaggerated you get to the point where the handle is so big you are forced to grip it easily (low pressure), and the SW is so high you are forced to wield it like a flail. And that is how you avoid TE!
Regarding your BH, judging by the clip you shared, I don't think there is anything essentially bad with it, I don't think there is few ESR in it either. You let the racket swing freely after contact to the other side of your body (so for sure there is some ESR there, right?), which I think is basic for TE protection.
There are other videos in your channel in which you hit some clearly more awkward BHs keeping the wrist too locked and I'd say that is a killer for the elbow, specially with a 450+SW racket (particularly on the one hander).
And more than prepping earlier, I would advise to go into ready position sooner, to avoid holding that monster in front of you with your hitting hand (but yes I guess prep early is good advice for anyone).
Apart from all this, the part of your game that will be undoubtedly capped (in my non-coach opinion) is the serve. There is no way you will be getting the ball at your highest reach comfortably with a 460 SW racket, and no way you can get any speed out of it with an L16 handle without having it flying off your hand.
That's from my experience, of course. Maybe you've found a way around it.
But there is another video in which you are serving with a "light" racket and it looks quite better (both in terms of speed and spin) than your usual match serves (which, hats off, are pretty decent for a 460 SW racket –I'm a 37yo mildly athletic guy, with a solid ~100mph 1st serve, and I don't think I could pull them off).

 

[Shroud]

Sweet mother of god. I was expecting something crazy and yet you managed to surprise me.
I would never recommend big handles or high Swingweights to anyone for preventing/curing TE. But I guess maybe your case is so exaggerated you get to the point where the handle is so big you are forced to grip it easily (low pressure), and the SW is so high you are forced to wield it like a flail. And that is how you avoid TE!
Regarding your BH, judging by the clip you shared, I don't think there is anything essentially bad with it, I don't think there is few ESR in it either. You let the racket swing freely after contact to the other side of your body (so for sure there is some ESR there, right?), which I think is basic for TE protection.
There are other videos in your channel in which you hit some clearly more awkward BHs keeping the wrist too locked and I'd say that is a killer for the elbow, specially with a 450+SW racket (particularly on the one hander).
And more than prepping earlier, I would advise to go into ready position sooner, to avoid holding that monster in front of you with your hitting hand (but yes I guess prep early is good advice for anyone).
Apart from all this, the part of your game that will be undoubtedly capped (in my non-coach opinion) is the serve. There is no way you will be getting the ball at your highest reach comfortably with a 460 SW racket, and no way you can get any speed out of it with an L16 handle without having it flying off your hand.
That's from my experience, of course. Maybe you've found a way around it.
But there is another video in which you are serving with a "light" racket and it looks quite better (both in terms of speed and spin) than your usual match serves (which, hats off, are pretty decent for a 460 SW racket –I'm a 37yo mildly athletic guy, with a solid ~100mph 1st serve, and I don't think I could pull them off).

Wow is surprised someone!

Its something you just have to experience. The handle is not as big as it seems...I never had the racquet fly from serving. Never.

Anyhow my serve is a mess for reasons other than the racquet and in that serving with a light racquet vid, I can't get any pace. Compared to my heavy racquet there just isn't any pop with the light racquet. I just changed to platform and have zero power now. If you watched any of the recent match vid (which was just one day really) I couldn't toss at all. More consistent toss in platform but no pace. Long story and I am already polluting this thread.

Anyhow I wish you could feel it. Light stick no pace on serve. And fwiw I am too old for pace anyhow. I DO get more kick I think with the light racquet or at least spin. Not sure its as heavy as with the heavier racquet, and it def doesn't feel as heavy.

No TE here and not worried about getting it. At least not from tennis. Tree trimming is a recipe for ge if I am not careful, not getting te or ge from tennis.

100 mph is an accomplishment. IRRC I only got to 99mph using the frame method on this vid...which had full kevlar at 86lbs and a big handle, probably L13-14 and IIRC a 405sw and years younger ( no racquet flew in the filming of this vid): https://vimeo.com/170328248?autopla...6ZGVzY3x7InJlbW92ZV92b2RfdGl0bGVzIjpmYWxzZX0=

So my serve sucks as my elbow remains rock solid even with my questionable technique.

 

[AlexKangaroo]

I started advising recreational players who don't hit hard to switch to synthetic strings. Once they find the right tension, synthetic strings can last a very long time without breaking. As long as they don't complain to me that the strings are getting stuck out of place

I've been contemplating on switching strings to my Pro Staff. What synthetics (I assume synth gut?) do you mainly recommend. And are multifilament's a good option to a player who doesn't like restringing all the time and would like to avoid TE.

 

[tele]

I've been contemplating on switching strings to my Pro Staff. What synthetics (I assume synth gut?) do you mainly recommend. And are multifilament's a good option to a player who doesn't like restringing all the time and would like to avoid TE.

The answer to your last question is yes, as long as you do not break strings super fast.

A lot of people like head velocity, multifeel black, and babolat xcel as sort of one-size-fits-all multis.

If you want max power, try tecnifibre x-1 biphase. If you want max comfort, try isospeed professional classic.
If you want max control, but less comfort, try tecnifibre triax.



There are countless others, and if you want to jump down the rabbit hole, check out the the "Accepting you cannot use poly" and "Mikeler's Multis" threads.

 

[AlexKangaroo]

The answer to your last question is yes, as long as you do not break strings super fast.

A lot of people like head velocity, multifeel black, and babolat xcel as sort of one-size-fits-all multis.

If you want max power, try tecnifibre x-1 biphase. If you want max comfort, try isospeed professional classic.
If you want max control, but less comfort, try tecnifibre triax.



There are countless others, and if you want to jump down the rabbit hole, check out the the "Accepting you cannot use poly" and "Mikeler's Multi's" threads.

Thanks a lot for the response. Yeah I've been a bit firghtened by the amount of discussion around Poly and TE. In my mind I don't really think I should risk any of that stuff for some performance benefits from Poly. Babolat xcel sounds like a good place to start and I think my local stringer has Head velocity available. I don't think I have had that many strings break on me before losing their effectiveness anyways. I like the idea of starting with an all-rounder.

 

[Icsa]

I've been contemplating on switching strings to my Pro Staff. What synthetics (I assume synth gut?) do you mainly recommend. And are multifilament's a good option to a player who doesn't like restringing all the time and would like to avoid TE.

My favorite multifilament is PPC: https://www.tennis-warehouse.com/Prince_Premier_Control_16_130_String/descpageACTWABG-PPC16.html

A good synthetic gut is from Wilson: https://www.tennis-warehouse.com/Wi...er_16_130_String/descpageACWILSON-WSGP16.html

I also had good experience with Gamma Synthetic Gut.

Tip: Add a few of these in the areas of high wear to add longevity and spin: https://www.tennis-warehouse.com/Babolat_ElastoCross_2_String_Saver_Locks/descpageBAB-EC2.html

 

[Miguelin]

Thanks a lot for the response. Yeah I've been a bit firghtened by the amount of discussion around Poly and TE. In my mind I don't really think I should risk any of that stuff for some performance benefits from Poly. Babolat xcel sounds like a good place to start and I think my local stringer has Head velocity available. I don't think I have had that many strings break on me before losing their effectiveness anyways. I like the idea of starting with an all-rounder.

I have not a lot of experience with multis (except for some hybrids) but I recently got a used racket and it came with Duramix HD 1.35 (from TF). Despite showing clear signs of use, it's barely notched and still snaps back. I think if you're looking for a durable all-rounder this could be a great contestant. Seems like a budget version of the Triax.
I'm actually considering buying a couple sets myself to see how good it is freshly strung, and how durable it really is (can't know for sure how used is the string in said racket).
Also Velocity MLT is quite cheap for a multi, and also has good snapping and all-rounder qualities.