Do tennis coaches hate coaching adults?

[Cindysphinx]

Look at Andy Murray's 2 handed volley.
Looks like a 3.0

Coco Gauf was warming up her volleys quite nicely in her match today -- a 1HBH volley.

I guess no one ever told her that women were too weak and feeble to volley with one hand.

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

Group lessons are a total waste of money.

I don't even want to use the word lesson, since you're not taught jack.
They are entertainment for retired folks.

Serious players do not take group lessons.
They utilize 1-1 coaching.

I have never gotten a single useful tip in a "clinic"
What kind of analysis and feedback are you going to get with 7 other people standing around?
None, that's what.

Clinics are chaperoned point games, like babysitting kids.
A clinic can be run by someone who literally has never played tennis.
Total and absolute waste of time and money.

Further, if level is below 4.5,
you're just reinforcing broken strokes into muscle memory.
You're better off not even playing, at that point.

And even if you got a useful tip, it's useless unless you drill it for 100's of reps.
Otherwise, you do it twice, then go back to your old habits.

The proof?
People take 3.0 level clinics for decades and never leave 3.0
People take 3.5 level clinics for decades and never leave 3.5
If they do get better, it's never because of the clinic.

$50 clinic weekly is $2000/year. $10k in 5 years, with zero improvement. Same garbage strokes.
Take that same $2000, and allocate it toward 40 private lessons, and you will see a true difference.

IMHO, group lessons/clinics are a horrendous waste of money, assuming you're trying to become a better player

And, people get bad coaching (or none at all) and do not even know it.

Evert clinic I've ever observed shows to me the players are going backwards in their development
by grooving broken strokes into muscle memory, with zero correction or drill.
Just amusing games for bored kids and grannies.

The difference in private lessons is that you're drilling and isolating and doing the reps during the lesson.
I don't take lessons for "tips" That's idiotic after learning the basics.
Lessons are to do 100's of correct reps with live feedback!
So, you can take lessons and not do a lick of HW, and you will absolutely start to develop the right muscle memory.
That is assuming you have a decent coach.
Most coaches can't coach worth a **** since they do nothing but coach 2.0 level grannies and children all day.

This is the eternal debate I have in my head when I see people in groups/clinics.
On the one hand, your group kid is at least playing, so that's good.
On the other hand, he is developing junk mechanics, so he's going backwards.
Clinics only reinforce bad habits that will need to be broken later, if he ever gets serious.

The bottom line is that tennis is work. Very hard work.
Training a D1 bound college kid requires both: Playing, and playing correctly.
Very few people ever do both.

Let me be clear.
Being in a clinic run by Federer himself is a total and complete waste of time.
You will walk out with no difference in your game. None. Zero. Zilch.

Tennis is not about "tips"
Tips are 1%.
If tips meant anything, everyone who ever watched a YouTube video would be a 5.0

The 99% is doing 100,000,000 correct reps.

I've never seen any other kind of clinic or group lesson.
Even an "advanced" 4.5+ clinic I attended was exactly that: Ball feed and keep score.
A paralyzed librarian could have run the clinic.

I think the only people who should do clinics are those who are already experts
and simply want a venue for hitting balls. For that, I'd call it "group drilling"
But, for anyone who is still developing strokes, clinics is a waste of their time and money.
No feedback. No stroke correction. No drilling correct reps.
Just reinforcing bad habits. Utility is either zero or negative.

When I see kids in clinics, I see them arming the ball with zero guidance, training, or feedback.
Just ball feeds and keeping track of score.
I think to myself, they are going backwards, if they ever intend on playing real tennis.

If you're enjoying it, you're doing it wrong.
You know why pros break down and cry when they win?
B/c of the blood, sweat, and tears they shed to get there.
Not because they had fun clinics with friends.
Want to be great at tennis?
You need to leave your friends and family and move into a tennis camp in Siberia.
Or Florida. LOL!

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

Well . . . . I have rarely seen a group clinic that wasn't pretty much useless for improvement of any kind. When I started, I began with group clinics, but after about 9 months of that I realized I would never get any better with that sort of instruction.

The problems are numerous:

1. Players, who are usually strangers to one another, are of different levels. Weak players have to break form just to survive, and strong players look like bullies if they don't hold back.

2. Players, who are usually more than four to a court, become frustrated if they are "standing around," so drills must keep moving. As a result, errors in form or shot selection cannot be corrected, let alone repeated so the player gets a chance to fix it. Half the time, the pro is so busy feeding two pairs of students without losing an eye that he cannot possibly discern what is wrong with Student No. 6's stroke and what technique change will do the most to fix it.

3. Players are interested only in their own opportunity to hit a ball and do not care whether anyone else on the court gets to hit a ball. So they will blast away wildly, oblivious that the person across the net hasn't had a chance to hit a ball because they are all hitting the net.

4. Players are more concerned with winning the drill rather than challenging themselves to get out of their comfort zone. This leads some players to ignore shot selection conventions and instead pick on the weaker player of a pair of strangers who have been thrown together that day, guaranteeing that the strong player doesn't get a chance to hit.

5. I suspect that teaching group lessons is where newer pros who lack a client base start. As a result, group lessons sometimes have a pro who doesn't know how to construct a drill that is challenging for everyone but is still something that everyone on the court has the skill to execute.

I love group instruction, but only with a group of players who are the same level, a pro who knows what he is doing, and players who have been vetted to exclude nut job and divas.

It seems most of your downsides have more to do with clinics than lessons.

The group lesson I attend has a fairly tight spread of skill level, everyone knows most everyone else, and if we do something that's counter to the lesson being taught for the sake of winning the point, the instructor yells at us. We're not there to win points; we're there to work on a specific skill.

I don't expect any instruction at a clinic; those are to have fun. Even then, the skill level is pretty even and the weirdos stop coming.

 

[Cindysphinx]

I’m talking about the group experience many clubs offer.

So . . . Sign up at the desk, 90 minutes, at least six people per court, participants change based on who signed up that week.

You can take that clinic the rest of your life and you won’t get anywhere.

I like private clinics, where the pro knows the individuals, all of whom have a common goal.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

I’m talking about the group experience many clubs offer.

So . . . Sign up at the desk, 90 minutes, at least six people per court, participants change based on who signed up that week.

You can take that clinic the rest of your life and you won’t get anywhere.

I like private clinics, where the pro knows the individuals, all of whom have a common goal.

Got it. I've primarily [95%+] done what you describe as private. I've done a few "customer appreciation" type events or vendors hyping a new line of racquets and those are a very mixed bag. But I don't go to those with the expectation of improvement or instruction.

 

[ChaelAZ]

Group lessons are great for rec players through 4.5 for general instruction and play. You just have to have a good coach, like anything. There is a 4.0 and up group in Vegas my son and I got to attend and it was hopping, great fun, and had great tips and instruction along through situational play. The pro there enjoyed challenging us as much as we liked to be challenged. Had similar experiences at clubs around the US and such.

Good classes are well worth the $10-$25 I have been charged. Especially those that limit enrollment and make sure everyone is of a certain level.

I guess if you think you are going to get a pro to stop class and give you one-on-one lessons in the middle of a group class you will be disappointed, but I don't know what kind of special snowflake thinks that.

 

[OnTheLine]

Yes the strategy style group lessons are as @S&V-not_dead_yet described. Group of same level, often a team and working on shot selection, positioning, strategy and point building. Incredibly beneficial. This is not for individual stroke correction ... nor is it going to be a cardio work out .... this is Wardlaw's Directionals in a clinic with specific drills that ingrain it. Good stuff!

I also agree with @ChaelAZ ... a $15 clinic that is fast paced is worth it for what it is. An opportunity to hit a lot of balls, get a decent work out .... and if you are new to an area a great way to meet other players at your level. That point in and of itself is priceless. And if you need individual stroke instruction .... pay up for an actual lesson, don't think that for $15 you are going to get it in a group class.

If you are only looking to have all of your tennis outings be ideal for your own improvement, well, you are either going to be spending much more than your budget may allow or you are going to be playing a lot less than you could be.

@Cindysphinx I am glad that I don't take clinics with the people you describe. My club's clinics are level specific. 4 levels are available so there is a spot for nearly everyone. (honestly, the over 5.0 don't really have a spot though perhaps they don't need one) Most of the time pros will kick out players that are at the wrong level (too low or too high) and will separate players within the clinic group further by level.

It sounds like the clinic you are describing is a true all-comer clinic ... I wouldn't be interested in that either. No rhythm if you have 2.5s and 4.0s on the same court. No rallies could even be possible.

These clinics can be beneficial for improvement. But you have to bring the right attitude, and you have to learn to bring your own intensity ... kinda like in a match. In a live-ball drill if you are working on your slice, then work on it. Force yourself to play slice on every ball .... it puts you in match play situations sometimes the ball is in an uncomfortable position .... isn't that a pretty good opportunity for improvement?

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

These clinics can be beneficial for improvement. But you have to bring the right attitude, and you have to learn to bring your own intensity ... kinda like in a match. In a live-ball drill if you are working on your slice, then work on it. Force yourself to play slice on every ball .... it puts you in match play situations sometimes the ball is in an uncomfortable position .... isn't that a pretty good opportunity for improvement?

Totally agree on this one: attitude dominates outcome.

A wise volleyball teammate once told me that every time he steps out on the court, he has an individual game plan as well as being part of the team. I apply that to situations like group settings with uneven competition. Heck, it could even happen in a league/tournament where there is a large mismatch.

 

[Cindysphinx]

Well, let me be clear.

Is attending a random group clinic better than sitting on the couch? Of course. Any time you can hit is an opportunity to hit.

My point is that I know many people who take clinics often, and these people do not improve. That is because clinics can make sure your existing strokes do not get rusty, but they cannot help you fix flaws, and they do not give you the reps needed to groove things into muscle memory.

OnTheLine gives an example that you can force yourself to slice every ball even in uncomfortable positions, so it's a good opportunity for improvement. Mmmmm . . . . Not if your slice sucks. Hitting 50 bad slices isn't going to help you improve your slice. It will make sure your existing sucky slice doesn't get rusty and become an even worse sucky slice, but it won't help your slice go from, say, 3.5 to 4.0.

I'm not saying clinics are not a good value for the money. I'm not saying they are worse than sitting on the couch. I'm not saying they cannot be good exercise or a fun time or a way to spend the afternoon.

I'm saying they are a poor way to improve. If your goal is to get better and you want to work on your tennis, it is better to save your $15 until you have enough for a private or semi-private lesson, then go out and drop feed or hit with a buddy to practice what you learned.

As you might imagine, I have a running disagreement with a particular person who wonders why she has been at a low level for ten years despite taking a lot of clinics. I've actually been to these clinics, and they are consistent with what OnTheLine describes. But they aren't nearly enough to ingrain the technique and habits this person needs to move up.

I'm afraid to say it, but . . . TimeToPlaySets is right about this.

 

[tennis tom]

WORST KIND OF CLINIC :

* Joke "coach's" web-site schedule is two years out of date.
* Dead balls in "joke coach's" shopping cart that are so dirty they are stealth and can't be seen. Attendees donate their good used balls, but he doesn't put them into his basket--maybe he pawns them to buy pharma.
* No tips, no communication, except warnings not to step on balls, which would raise insurance rate and lose customers.
* Clinic over : grab money and run off to do whatever between next clinic.
* Day is done--"joke-coach" pockets another $200.00
* A Roomba vac could do this job.
* Pluses : good way to meet like-minded players--no need to focus on new stuff. Lots of good info garnered on latest movies, restaurants, merlots/chardonnays, golden labs, Range Rovers and safaris to Kenya.

 

[Dartagnan64]

Serious players do not take group lessons.
They utilize 1-1 coaching.

I watch the high performance juniors and the Tennis BC juniors clinics at our club from time to time. All of them are group lessons and all are attended by one or two top tier coaches. All these kids can hit with solid strokes and are not getting one on one sessions. But the coaches do point out things and frequently tell the kids what they are doing wrong. These kids are just talented enough to fix it. If they are told to get their elbow up on their FH, they start getting their elbow up.

If you tell a 2.5 lady in a drill what she's doing wrong, odds are she won't be talented enough to fix it.

So its very possible to develop tennis players in groups. You just need the right clay to mold.

 

[Cindysphinx]

Were those juniors playing queen of the court?

Were they hitting three forehands and going to the back of the line?

Were they hitting three FH volleys while running across the net and then going to the back of the line?

Was a pro standing on the center line feeding two students at once?

I see the juniors drilling before our league matches start, and they are, you know, drilling.

Clinics are supposed to be entertaining and fun, and they are, as the clinic players are smiling. Those juniors are not smiling.

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

I watch the high performance juniors and the Tennis BC juniors clinics at our club from time to time. All of them are group lessons and all are attended by one or two top tier coaches. All these kids can hit with solid strokes and are not getting one on one sessions. But the coaches do point out things and frequently tell the kids what they are doing wrong. These kids are just talented enough to fix it. If they are told to get their elbow up on their FH, they start getting their elbow up.

If you tell a 2.5 lady in a drill what she's doing wrong, odds are she won't be talented enough to fix it.

So its very possible to develop tennis players in groups. You just need the right clay to mold.

I will reiterate what I wrote above:

I think the only people who should do clinics are those who are already experts
and simply want a venue for hitting balls. For that, I'd call it "group drilling"
But, for anyone who is still developing strokes, clinics is a waste of their time and money.
Just reinforcing bad habits. Utility is either zero or negative.

 

[Matthew ATX]

I have made tremendous progress via clinics.

I'm not out there playing with 3.0 Social Sally though. I'm playing with other 4.0-4.5 (after moving up from 3.5 clinics) players and with coaches who know me/my game. There is plenty of feedback and instruction to be had.

 

[ChaelAZ]

I watch the high performance juniors and the Tennis BC juniors clinics at our club from time to time. All of them are group lessons and all are attended by one or two top tier coaches. All these kids can hit with solid strokes and are not getting one on one sessions. But the coaches do point out things and frequently tell the kids what they are doing wrong. These kids are just talented enough to fix it. If they are told to get their elbow up on their FH, they start getting their elbow up.

If you tell a 2.5 lady in a drill what she's doing wrong, odds are she won't be talented enough to fix it.

So its very possible to develop tennis players in groups. You just need the right clay to mold.

Yeah, there are several 4.5+ group classes at different clubs around town that are packed with players. Super solid play and a great way to meet other players and learn/hone skills.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Dartagnan64]

Were those juniors playing queen of the court?

Were they hitting three forehands and going to the back of the line?

Were they hitting three FH volleys while running across the net and then going to the back of the line?

Was a pro standing on the center line feeding two students at once?

I see the juniors drilling before our league matches start, and they are, you know, drilling.

Clinics are supposed to be entertaining and fun, and they are, as the clinic players are smiling. Those juniors are not smiling.

No the kids were working at learning tennis. They had some fun touch drills at the net, but a lot was working on groundstrokes and developing points. That being said, there's some competitiveness in the juniors that leads to some positive and negative outbursts even during drills.

But, for anyone who is still developing strokes, clinics is a waste of their time and money.
Just reinforcing bad habits. Utility is either zero or negative.

Yes. Right clay to mold.
It frustrates me the few times I've gone to clinics and the women there are so hapless with their strokes that they can't fundamentally complete the drill.

I watched a clinic this morning as I was practicing with my wife in an adjacent court. The drill was to hit CC, move to the service line, split step, hit an overhead then move into the net and put away a volley. Coach was feeding these balls and even with these patty cake feeds, some of the women couldn't even execute any of the strokes. CC bunt into the net, shanked frying pan Overhead into my court, 2 handed volley dribble over the net. Over and over. These people need one on one coaching to learn how to hold a racquet. They are too weak for clinics and just drag everything down.

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

It is laughable to see anything under 4.5 try to do those "alley" drills.
Just like warm up for doubles, they want to do 2 balls at once.
Who are you kidding? Quickly, it turns into a criss cross schitshow

And yes, a great example of why clinics are a complete waste of time for anyone under 4.5

 

[Cindysphinx]

It frustrates me the few times I've gone to clinics and the women there are so hapless with their strokes that they can't fundamentally complete the drill.

Wait. What?

*The women* are hapless? Yes, low-level women in clinic cannot execute a drill above their level.

But why are you singling out the women? The men are hapless too. Oh, the number of times I have attended a clinic with a man, and he was *crushing* the ball into the back curtain. Execute a drill requiring control? Not gonna happen.

Hapless indeed.

 

[tennis tom]

*The women* are hapless? Yes, low-level women in clinic cannot execute a drill above their level.

Just maybe there were ONLY women in that particular clinic. In my experience women outnumber men in clinics by 20 to 1. In the clinics I attend, I'm the ONLY male there, (I'm on my own time), and the women are participating in-between picking up and dropping off the kids--(can I say that or is that misogynistic and/or sexist?)--maybe in other areas that's not true and nannies do that.

 

[Cindysphinx]

Gender has nothing to do with whether the players in that clinic are hapless.

So all of the players were women, eh? What if all the players had been black? Would you write, “The blacks there were so hapless with their strokes”? Gosh, I hope not. I would hope that, regardless of race or gender, you would write that the *players* were hapless.

Let’s stop denigrating women for no reason, shall we?

 

[Cindysphinx]

Oh, and let’s not assume every woman in a day clinic is participating between picking up and dropping off kids.

Maybe these women work from home, control their own work schedule, have a day off during the week, are wealthy or retired, and/or are childless.

Why I am I hearing these sexist assumptions? It’s 2019, right?

Just checking . . .

 

[Matthew ATX]

Some of the coaches at the place I play at run the alley rally clinics with like 10 people on two courts. I don't go to those. I'm not paying $25 to do something I can do for free with a buddy. If that's all clinics were, I'd agree that they're pretty useless. There is none of that in the ones I go to.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

Just maybe there were ONLY women in that particular clinic. In my experience women outnumber men in clinics by 20 to 1. In the clinics I attend, I'm the ONLY male there, (I'm on my own time), and the women are participating in-between picking up and dropping off the kids--(can I say that or is that misogynistic and/or sexist?)--maybe in other areas that's not true and nannies do that.

It's not misogynistic or sexist if A) it's true; and B) you didn't mean it as a generalized putdown of an entire group.

 

[kramer woodie]

It's not misogynistic or sexist if A) it's true; and B) you didn't mean it as a generalized putdown of an entire group.

S&V-not_dead_yet

Seems to me that a group was left out. That group too cheap to pay for an individual lesson, taking advantage of discounted rates offered to groups.
From a coaches perspective teaching groups leads to a higher pay for a one hour lesson. Using just hypothetical numbers: a one hour individual lesson cost 40$, put 8 people in a group lesson at a charge of 10$ each for that same hour, and the coach make 80$ verses a measly 40$.

Could that be the reason coaches offer discounts for group lessons? Naw, coaches are just being mindful of those who have less money.

Aloha

 

[tennis tom]

Why I am I hearing these sexist assumptions? It’s 2019, right?

Because EVERY woman in MY clinic was talking about picking up their kids--your results may vary.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

Because EVERY woman in MY clinic was talking about picking up their kids--your results may vary.

OK: so it passes the truth test. Whether it passes the putdown test is open to debate. Hard to interpret tone in a text message.

 

[Cindysphinx]

OK: so it passes the truth test. Whether it passes the putdown test is open to debate. Hard to interpret tone in a text message.

Right.

This board has a long history of disrespecting female pros, coaches, and rec players. Me, I grew tired of it years ago.

I was a stay at home mom for years, and I don’t recall standing around in tennis clinics talking about the rather mundane task of kid pick up and drop off.

If that’s all every single one of these players can think to talk about, they sound like a deadly dull bunch.

 

[J011yroger]

Right.

This board has a long history of disrespecting female pros, coaches, and rec players. Me, I grew tired of it years ago.

I was a stay at home mom for years, and I don’t recall standing around in tennis clinics talking about the rather mundane task of kid pick up and drop off.

If that’s all every single one of these players can think to talk about, they sound like a deadly dull bunch.

The funny part is that most of the people doing the disrespecting are 3.5 40+ men with beer guts.

J

 

[Dartagnan64]

The women* are hapless? Yes, low-level women in clinic cannot execute a drill above their level.

But why are you singling out the women? The men are hapless too. Oh, the number of times I have attended a clinic with a man, and he was *crushing* the ball into the back curtain. Execute a drill requiring control? Not gonna happen.

Hapless men are too self conscious to attend a clinic. Haplessness is seen on both sides of gender equation. It's just that men are too fragile with their egos to show a pro how useless they are. Hapless men are seen at 6 am on the ball machine flailing away with the same miserable strokes.

 

[Dartagnan64]

The funny part is that most of the people doing the disrespecting are 3.5 40+ men with beer guts.

J

Hey I resemble that remark. But I'm the hapless guy trying to fix his strokes by himself or with his wife at 6 am in the morning.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

Hey I resemble that remark. But I'm the hapless guy trying to fix his strokes by himself or with his wife at 6 am in the morning.

Then that's not hapless...more like hapful.

 

[BounceHitBounceHit]

Has anyone here ever been to a college team practice? They are, in fact, a form of “group lesson“. [emoji56]

However what you will see in this environment, as well as in clinics run by experienced, well informed coaches for advanced players (4.5-5.0 and above) is quite different from the customary “group lesson“ run by an ordinary teaching pro.

Specifically, in college team practice and advanced “clinics“ there is less emphasis on isolating a specific stroke (simply not possible, as someone else pointed out earlier in the thread) or for that matter on “just hitting a lot of balls“ (which is in all likelihood simply going to reinforce poor mechanics for most people)rather on specific matchplay situations. For example, the focus might be on looping the ball deep and then dropping it short, or approaching down the middle and taking the net, or perhaps on returning strategies, such as chipping a big serve back low so as to reduce the chance of an aggressive first shot by the server. In clinics run for amateur adult players, there is a lot of running around, giggling, and slapping at balls. It can be a lot of fun, but you are VERY unlikely to meaningfully improve your tennis.

If you’re serious about getting better the combination is individual instruction to hone specific strokes perhaps supplemented by clinics with matchplay specific drills and scenarios. But before any of that will matter you need to be in excellent physical shape, at an ideal weight, and working on strength and flexibility to prevent injury.

Without all of these ingredients, advancing beyond the 4.0 level is, in my experience, nearly impossible. You can still play and enjoy tennis, as enjoyment is not at all level dependent. In fact, some of the most avid tennis fans and players I know play at a middling 3.5 level. But advanced play is a whole other thing!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[tennis tom]

Why I am I hearing these sexist assumptions? It’s 2019, right?

Because you're looking for them.

This board has a long history of disrespecting female pros, coaches, and rec players.

AND also disrespecting MALE pros, coaches, and rec players.

I was a stay at home mom for years, and I don’t recall standing around in tennis clinics talking about the rather mundane task of kid pick up and drop off.

"Mundane"?--I would think picking up the kids and making sure their not kidnapped, or worse, by some perv running around loose, who should be in jail or worse, would be VERY important!

If that’s all every single one of these players can think to talk about, they sound like a deadly dull bunch.

Was playing next to a group of 4.0+ woman yesterday, and guess what they were talking about during their mini-tennis warm-up? I'm too afraid to say it in case the PC Police are listening. It involves sending the kids off to ------ ----. (fill in the blanks). Actually they weren't "dull" at all--quite hot mommas.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

Because you're looking for them.

One needn't be looking when things are blasted out on a megaphone.

AND also disrespecting MALE pros, coaches, and rec players.

But that disrespect is usually generic [ie "that person [who happens to be male] has a sucky FH" vs "women have sucky FHs"].

It's all in the tone, not the literal interpretation. You, of course, are perfectly aware of this and can hide behind literal truth when pressed.

 

[Pro Kenneth]

This board has a long history of disrespecting female pros, coaches, and rec players. Me, I grew tired of it years ago.

The same board that in an adjacent thread is bordering on public worship of Navrotalova in the 1075th argument about slam counts?

 

[Pro Kenneth]

it is better to save your $15 until you have enough for a private or semi-private lesson,

You talking group lessons or a (2d) movie? Damn cheap.

 

[sureshs]

Lots of good info garnered on latest movies, restaurants, merlots/chardonnays, golden labs, Range Rovers and safaris to Kenya.

Safaris IN Kenya. I don't think any safari starts in the US and goes to Kenya.

 

[sureshs]

Just maybe there were ONLY women in that particular clinic. In my experience women outnumber men in clinics by 20 to 1. In the clinics I attend, I'm the ONLY male there, (I'm on my own time), and the women are participating in-between picking up and dropping off the kids--(can I say that or is that misogynistic and/or sexist?)--maybe in other areas that's not true and nannies do that.

Question is why are you attending clinics with a 20-1 female to male ratio?

Are you also spotted in Zumba and Yoga classes on the last row allowing maximum view of the women?

 

[sureshs]

I developed two important tips on the serve over the long weekend, but I think I will post them in a new thread in the Tips section to ensure maximum dissemination of quality instruction.

 

[sovertennis]

I’m talking about the group experience many clubs offer.

So . . . Sign up at the desk, 90 minutes, at least six people per court, participants change based on who signed up that week.

You can take that clinic the rest of your life and you won’t get anywhere.

I like private clinics, where the pro knows the individuals, all of whom have a common goal.

Agree entirely.

At the last (and final) club where I worked, I was assigned a 3.5-4.0 clinic, which would have a max of 6 players. Not an issue for me, because I've been coaching a long time and have a vast inventory of drills/exercises/ activities and can keep a group moving, moving, moving. Problems arose when the women at the desk would let anyone they liked sign up, so the level got diluted quickly and it became pretty complicated to coach (for example, how to do a drill where the 68 year old 3.0 woman has to take her turn at the net against a 30 year old 3.5 guy, and so on). Within weeks, players stopped signing up for the clinic.

Now, I coach a lot of team clinics, in which the team captain enlists players and we practice based on what's occurring in their matches.

 

[Erlang]

Group lessons are a total waste of money.

I don't even want to use the word lesson, since you're not taught jack.
They are entertainment for retired folks.

Serious players do not take group lessons.
They utilize 1-1 coaching.

I have never gotten a single useful tip in a "clinic"
What kind of analysis and feedback are you going to get with 7 other people standing around?
None, that's what.

Clinics are chaperoned point games, like babysitting kids.
A clinic can be run by someone who literally has never played tennis.
Total and absolute waste of time and money.

Further, if level is below 4.5,
you're just reinforcing broken strokes into muscle memory.
You're better off not even playing, at that point.

And even if you got a useful tip, it's useless unless you drill it for 100's of reps.
Otherwise, you do it twice, then go back to your old habits.

The proof?
People take 3.0 level clinics for decades and never leave 3.0
People take 3.5 level clinics for decades and never leave 3.5
If they do get better, it's never because of the clinic.

$50 clinic weekly is $2000/year. $10k in 5 years, with zero improvement. Same garbage strokes.
Take that same $2000, and allocate it toward 40 private lessons, and you will see a true difference.

IMHO, group lessons/clinics are a horrendous waste of money, assuming you're trying to become a better player

And, people get bad coaching (or none at all) and do not even know it.

Evert clinic I've ever observed shows to me the players are going backwards in their development
by grooving broken strokes into muscle memory, with zero correction or drill.
Just amusing games for bored kids and grannies.

The difference in private lessons is that you're drilling and isolating and doing the reps during the lesson.
I don't take lessons for "tips" That's idiotic after learning the basics.
Lessons are to do 100's of correct reps with live feedback!
So, you can take lessons and not do a lick of HW, and you will absolutely start to develop the right muscle memory.
That is assuming you have a decent coach.
Most coaches can't coach worth a **** since they do nothing but coach 2.0 level grannies and children all day.

This is the eternal debate I have in my head when I see people in groups/clinics.
On the one hand, your group kid is at least playing, so that's good.
On the other hand, he is developing junk mechanics, so he's going backwards.
Clinics only reinforce bad habits that will need to be broken later, if he ever gets serious.

The bottom line is that tennis is work. Very hard work.
Training a D1 bound college kid requires both: Playing, and playing correctly.
Very few people ever do both.

Let me be clear.
Being in a clinic run by Federer himself is a total and complete waste of time.
You will walk out with no difference in your game. None. Zero. Zilch.

Tennis is not about "tips"
Tips are 1%.
If tips meant anything, everyone who ever watched a YouTube video would be a 5.0

The 99% is doing 100,000,000 correct reps.

I've never seen any other kind of clinic or group lesson.
Even an "advanced" 4.5+ clinic I attended was exactly that: Ball feed and keep score.
A paralyzed librarian could have run the clinic.

I think the only people who should do clinics are those who are already experts
and simply want a venue for hitting balls. For that, I'd call it "group drilling"
But, for anyone who is still developing strokes, clinics is a waste of their time and money.
No feedback. No stroke correction. No drilling correct reps.
Just reinforcing bad habits. Utility is either zero or negative.

When I see kids in clinics, I see them arming the ball with zero guidance, training, or feedback.
Just ball feeds and keeping track of score.
I think to myself, they are going backwards, if they ever intend on playing real tennis.

If you're enjoying it, you're doing it wrong.
You know why pros break down and cry when they win?
B/c of the blood, sweat, and tears they shed to get there.
Not because they had fun clinics with friends.
Want to be great at tennis?
You need to leave your friends and family and move into a tennis camp in Siberia.
Or Florida. LOL!

Clinics here are 3.5 to 4 times cheaper than a private lesson, and I am not made of money.

You can definitely get something out of them, if you know how to approach them and you have an okay group of players. I personally use them as a practice session to reinforce (hopefully) good habits, with the added benefit of playing against new players, or players with different games than what I'm used to getting from my regular hitting partners. You can't expect to receive any meaningful instruction if there are 5+ other players on court. This means you probably should go in already knowing what you need to work on.

Ultimately, the players make or break the clinic. If you get guys or gals who can't get a ball into the court, or who are only interested in "winning" the drill by hitting winners on the weaker player, then you aren't going to get much out of it.

 

[Erlang]

Wait. What?

*The women* are hapless? Yes, low-level women in clinic cannot execute a drill above their level.

But why are you singling out the women? The men are hapless too. Oh, the number of times I have attended a clinic with a man, and he was *crushing* the ball into the back curtain. Execute a drill requiring control? Not gonna happen.

Hapless indeed.

Hapless men are worse, because a lot of them have big egos to boot. This means balls hit at a million miles an hour into the bottom of the net or into the curtain on the fly. I don't even get to hit another shot.

People take 3.0 level clinics for decades and never leave 3.0

People take 3.5 level clinics for decades and never leave 3.5

There is a kernel of truth in this. A lot of the players still doing 3.0 and 3.5 clinics in my club are making the same mistakes as they have been making since I met them.

But to be fair, I think many 3.0 and 3.5 players are just trying to maintain their level. Most of their tennis circle is going to be at that level anyway, and drastically improving would take them elsewhere.

 

[silentkman]

Group lessons are a total waste of money.

I don't even want to use the word lesson, since you're not taught jack.
They are entertainment for retired folks.

Serious players do not take group lessons.
They utilize 1-1 coaching.

I have never gotten a single useful tip in a "clinic"
What kind of analysis and feedback are you going to get with 7 other people standing around?
None, that's what.

Clinics are chaperoned point games, like babysitting kids.
A clinic can be run by someone who literally has never played tennis.
Total and absolute waste of time and money.

Further, if level is below 4.5,
you're just reinforcing broken strokes into muscle memory.
You're better off not even playing, at that point.

And even if you got a useful tip, it's useless unless you drill it for 100's of reps.
Otherwise, you do it twice, then go back to your old habits.

The proof?
People take 3.0 level clinics for decades and never leave 3.0
People take 3.5 level clinics for decades and never leave 3.5
If they do get better, it's never because of the clinic.

$50 clinic weekly is $2000/year. $10k in 5 years, with zero improvement. Same garbage strokes.
Take that same $2000, and allocate it toward 40 private lessons, and you will see a true difference.

IMHO, group lessons/clinics are a horrendous waste of money, assuming you're trying to become a better player

And, people get bad coaching (or none at all) and do not even know it.

Evert clinic I've ever observed shows to me the players are going backwards in their development
by grooving broken strokes into muscle memory, with zero correction or drill.
Just amusing games for bored kids and grannies.

The difference in private lessons is that you're drilling and isolating and doing the reps during the lesson.
I don't take lessons for "tips" That's idiotic after learning the basics.
Lessons are to do 100's of correct reps with live feedback!
So, you can take lessons and not do a lick of HW, and you will absolutely start to develop the right muscle memory.
That is assuming you have a decent coach.
Most coaches can't coach worth a **** since they do nothing but coach 2.0 level grannies and children all day.

This is the eternal debate I have in my head when I see people in groups/clinics.
On the one hand, your group kid is at least playing, so that's good.
On the other hand, he is developing junk mechanics, so he's going backwards.
Clinics only reinforce bad habits that will need to be broken later, if he ever gets serious.

The bottom line is that tennis is work. Very hard work.
Training a D1 bound college kid requires both: Playing, and playing correctly.
Very few people ever do both.

Let me be clear.
Being in a clinic run by Federer himself is a total and complete waste of time.
You will walk out with no difference in your game. None. Zero. Zilch.

Tennis is not about "tips"
Tips are 1%.
If tips meant anything, everyone who ever watched a YouTube video would be a 5.0

The 99% is doing 100,000,000 correct reps.

I've never seen any other kind of clinic or group lesson.
Even an "advanced" 4.5+ clinic I attended was exactly that: Ball feed and keep score.
A paralyzed librarian could have run the clinic.

I think the only people who should do clinics are those who are already experts
and simply want a venue for hitting balls. For that, I'd call it "group drilling"
But, for anyone who is still developing strokes, clinics is a waste of their time and money.
No feedback. No stroke correction. No drilling correct reps.
Just reinforcing bad habits. Utility is either zero or negative.

When I see kids in clinics, I see them arming the ball with zero guidance, training, or feedback.
Just ball feeds and keeping track of score.
I think to myself, they are going backwards, if they ever intend on playing real tennis.

If you're enjoying it, you're doing it wrong.
You know why pros break down and cry when they win?
B/c of the blood, sweat, and tears they shed to get there.
Not because they had fun clinics with friends.
Want to be great at tennis?
You need to leave your friends and family and move into a tennis camp in Siberia.
Or Florida. LOL!

everyone has a opinion. What don't you know about tennis? just amazing.

 

[silentkman]

Clinics here are 3.5 to 4 times cheaper than a private lesson, and I am not made of money.

You can definitely get something out of them, if you know how to approach them and you have an okay group of players. I personally use them as a practice session to reinforce (hopefully) good habits, with the added benefit of playing against new players, or players with different games than what I'm used to getting from my regular hitting partners. You can't expect to receive any meaningful instruction if there are 5+ other players on court. This means you probably should go in already knowing what you need to work on.

Ultimately, the players make or break the clinic. If you get guys or gals who can't get a ball into the court, or who are only interested in "winning" the drill by hitting winners on the weaker player, then you aren't going to get much out of it.

I have taken group before and no complaints. You have to find the right coach and that's the problem.

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

a practice session to reinforce (hopefully) good habits,
with the added benefit of playing against new players,
or players with different games than what I'm used to getting from my regular hitting partners.
You can't expect to receive any meaningful instruction if there are 5+ other players on court.
This means you probably should go in already knowing what you need to work on.
.

The above are all valid reasons for a clinic.
Note that none actually involve getting better.

I know a guy who tries to hit with 4.5 players.
He thinks this will make him 4.5
He has not improved in years.

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

But to be fair, I think many 3.0 and 3.5 players are just trying to maintain their level.

I have yet to meet a person who is just maintaining.
Unless they are 60+ and past their prime.

Everyone else?
They want to be better.
They just don't have the faintest clue how to go about doing that. (lessons)

 

[tennis tom]

Question is why are you attending clinics with a 20-1 female to male ratio?

Are you also spotted in Zumba and Yoga classes on the last row allowing maximum view of the women?

You're a genius sureshi! No zumba, yet, yoga--YES--definitely a back-row man. Happinis is being single! Just heard a great stat : the happiest people today are single women--I aim to please.

 

[Matthew ATX]

Agree entirely.

At the last (and final) club where I worked, I was assigned a 3.5-4.0 clinic, which would have a max of 6 players. Not an issue for me, because I've been coaching a long time and have a vast inventory of drills/exercises/ activities and can keep a group moving, moving, moving. Problems arose when the women at the desk would let anyone they liked sign up, so the level got diluted quickly and it became pretty complicated to coach (for example, how to do a drill where the 68 year old 3.0 woman has to take her turn at the net against a 30 year old 3.5 guy, and so on). Within weeks, players stopped signing up for the clinic.

Now, I coach a lot of team clinics, in which the team captain enlists players and we practice based on what's occurring in their matches.

It's a lousy position to be in for a coach. During the league seasons, most of the regulars in my 4.0-4.5 clinic are playing, so the club/coach will be a little more lax with the level of people they let sign up because they want to fill every clinic. When we all get back to coming every week though, we don't want to play with these lower level players, so the coach has to tell them to start coming to a lower level clinic, which irritates them because they've come to believe that they are 4.0-4.5 players, when they're not. So, the coach/club has to either lose the regulars, or offend the fillers.

 

[Dartagnan64]

I have yet to meet a person who is just maintaining.
Unless they are 60+ and past their prime.

Everyone else?
They want to be better.
They just don't have the faintest clue how to go about doing that. (lessons)

You can get better and still be a 3.0 or 3.5. We all tend to reach close to our athletic potential fairly quickly and the rest of our life is tweaking. Not necessarily enough to leave level unless you were on the cusp of a bump to begin with.

Only the most dedicated learners with strong athleticism are going to be making big strides. Those people are rare compared to the huge number of modestly athletic, strapped for time rec players out there. They can still improve but the gains will always be modest.

 

[blablavla]

Same with serves. A big serve gets many free points, but also many DFs. It's safer to dink serve and get zero DF's
Most people never develop a real serve since they care too much about winning.

yes and no.
at low level indeed, simply starting the point is ok, no need to serve, under-arm is fine.

the more you progress, you will find that solid spin on second service is a very safe option.
once a while you can of course miss the contact point, and the ball will fly somewhere, but if you consider: number of second serves related to how many rallies you started related to double faults against good opponents, spin is your best friend. When I say rallies started, I mean that your opponent couldn't simply crush a winner straight from your second serve, because it was a "dink" easy to put away.