Do tennis coaches hate coaching adults?

Badmrfrosty

Rookie
That D1 UTR13 college player thats been playing tennis for 15 years and was coached since early by experienced coaches and developed using a systematic and long term development plan throughout many many years....

He wouldnt even be UTR9 if he had no coaching and no development plan, but simply played matches lol....

But nevermind, TTW 3.0 players say coaching is a waste of time and money, just play matches and you will develop into the best player possible, gg lol...

Some people here truly are completely nuts
Exactly ideally, I'd like to find a coach that wants to develop a longer term plan and not just change this technique or that technique and play matches.

But I totally get it if I was a coach I'd want to coach juniors with a long term plan and get them scholarships. Not some clown like myself who's UTR 2-3 with a ceiling of hopefully UTR 6-7. I personally would just go for juniors unless I needed the cash.

Great replies though. Seems it really just depends, but from responses, this is what it feels like it is averaging out to (I realize some people think all coaches are terrible). 50% of tennis coaches are terrible, 40% are good but would rather invest in juniors but still likely 10% are good and would invest in old people.
 

FiReFTW

Legend
Exactly ideally, I'd like to find a coach that wants to develop a longer term plan and not just change this technique or that technique and play matches.

But I totally get it if I was a coach I'd want to coach juniors with a long term plan and get them scholarships. Not some clown like myself who's UTR 2-3 with a ceiling of hopefully UTR 6-7. I personally would just go for juniors unless I needed the cash.

Great replies though. Seems it really just depends, but from responses, this is what it feels like it is averaging out to (I realize some people think all coaches are terrible). 50% of tennis coaches are terrible, 40% are good but would rather invest in juniors but still likely 10% are good and would invest in old people.
In my experience only 5-10% of coaches are actually really good and also willing to invest time and effort to make a development plan and actually want to make you better, and its probably still high.
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
In my experience only 5-10% of coaches are actually really good and also willing to invest time and effort to make a development plan and actually want to make you better, and its probably still high.
Only 5-10% of people in any profession are actually really good.
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
Exactly ideally, I'd like to find a coach that wants to develop a longer term plan and not just change this technique or that technique and play matches.

But I totally get it if I was a coach I'd want to coach juniors with a long term plan and get them scholarships. Not some clown like myself who's UTR 2-3 with a ceiling of hopefully UTR 6-7. I personally would just go for juniors unless I needed the cash.

Great replies though. Seems it really just depends, but from responses, this is what it feels like it is averaging out to (I realize some people think all coaches are terrible). 50% of tennis coaches are terrible, 40% are good but would rather invest in juniors but still likely 10% are good and would invest in old people.
Honestly it's not any more fun to coach better players.

J
 
That is a very low threshold. I am talking about a threshold of 80 mph first serve with a 75% rate, and a second serve of 65 mph at 2000 rpm with a 95% rate.

And no foot faulting please.
Shift goalposts much? You said you had yet to find a pro that could improve serves in adults. Going from a waiter's tray push to a proper grip and adding spin is an improvement. I've never collected data on speed and spin rate of my student's serves, so I can't say they passed your arbitrary criteria... but even going from 40mph to 60mph would be improvement and not reach your numbers.
 

ChaelAZ

Legend
Only 5-10% of people in any profession are actually really good.

There are elite professionals, which might be the top 10%, but there are plenty of solid journeymen/women who make up the bulk of the workforce who are also very good. I would actually say that only the last 20% would be considered "bad". In tennis, I find that is pretty much in line as well.
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
Shift goalposts much? You said you had yet to find a pro that could improve serves in adults. Going from a waiter's tray push to a proper grip and adding spin is an improvement. I've never collected data on speed and spin rate of my student's serves, so I can't say they passed your arbitrary criteria... but even going from 40mph to 60mph would be improvement and not reach your numbers.
Truth is that many people with pancake grip serve better and faster than those with conti grip. The coach's challenge is to get the student's grip right AND effective.

And without foot faulting and with a high percentage.

Your challenge will not be conti and waiter's tray, which any adult can glean from innumerable free videos, but rather proper toss, balance and coordination in a non-athletic adult who will put it only so many hours of play a week (typically 3 to 4 hour max, with maybe half an hour total for serve practice). Simply saying place your toss where you want it and hit out and high on the ball and all those cliches are already known to the student. And he is NOT going to toss 1000 times to see the toss land in front of him. He will do it 3 times to humor you, that is all.

Can you improve his serve? That is the challenge, and so far not a single coach I have seen has delivered.
 
Truth is that many people with pancake grip serve better and faster than those with conti grip. The coach's challenge is to get the student's grip right AND effective.

And without foot faulting and with a high percentage.

Your challenge will not be conti and waiter's tray, which any adult can glean from innumerable free videos, but rather proper toss, balance and coordination in a non-athletic adult who will put it only so many hours of play a week (typically 3 to 4 hour max, with maybe half an hour total for serve practice).
You can get the info from a free video of course, there are few if any actual secrets out there. There is a huge difference between knowing what a continental grip is and actually using it properly though. If you think my lessons involve me just telling a student what to do, then you are sorely mistaken. You have to change the entire movement of the arm to facilitate the change in grip. I have several exercises and progressions that facilitate learning those movements, and over time they work. Most of my adults would take one hour long lesson a week and play maybe once or twice a week.
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
Truth is that many people with pancake grip serve better and faster than those with conti grip. The coach's challenge is to get the student's grip right AND effective.

And without foot faulting and with a high percentage.

Your challenge will not be conti and waiter's tray, which any adult can glean from innumerable free videos, but rather proper toss, balance and coordination in a non-athletic adult who will put it only so many hours of play a week (typically 3 to 4 hour max, with maybe half an hour total for serve practice). Simply saying place your toss where you want it and hit out and high on the ball and all those cliches are already known to the student. And he is NOT going to toss 1000 times to see the toss land in front of him. He will do it 3 times to humor you, that is all.

Can you improve his serve? That is the challenge, and so far not a single coach I have seen has delivered.
Somebody poast the gif.

J
 
I have not yet found a pro who can improve serves in adults.
There is truth here.

This is the only thing I have not learned anything from a coach.
It seems impossible to teach, in a rec setting.

I got some internet advice, and just kept trying stuff.
My serve is good enough to get free points on both 1st and 2nd against some players.
But, it is still all messed up.
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
There is truth here.

This is the only thing I have not learned anything from a coach.
It seems impossible to teach, in a rec setting.
I knew somebody would speak the truth. Not ONE player, not one, has improved his serve above his plateau level since I have known him (or her). Lessons or no lessons, camps or no camps, doesn't make a difference.
 
I knew somebody would speak the truth. Not ONE player, not one, has improved his serve above his plateau level since I have known him (or her). Lessons or no lessons, camps or no camps, doesn't make a difference.
Well, that's not what I meant.
My serve has taken a strong step up in the last year.

First serve is faster.
I can now control placement by rotating my address position.
I have even more kick on my 2nd, and can swing 100% on my 2nd serve.

There is much work to be done, but as it stands, my serve is well above the average 4.0 serve.

What I did mean was that none of this happened because of lessons.
It seems to be the only part of the game one can figure out themselves.
 
  • Like
Reactions: FRV
F

FRV

Guest
Well, that's not what I meant.
My serve has taken a strong step up in the last year.

First serve is faster.
I can now control placement by rotating my address position.
I have even more kick on my 2nd, and can swing 100% on my 2nd serve.

There is much work to be done, but as it stands, my serve is well above the average 4.0 serve.

What I did mean was that none of this happened because of lessons.
It seems to be the only part of the game one can figure out themselves.
This is why I was joking about becoming a coach. If no coach has been able to improve a player's serve, I could make a fortune just by giving them the same instructions they can get from videos on YT, namely FYB.
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
I knew somebody would speak the truth. Not ONE player, not one, has improved his serve above his plateau level since I have known him (or her). Lessons or no lessons, camps or no camps, doesn't make a difference.
My serve got better from taking lessons. I've also gotten people's serves better by giving lessons.

J
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
Well, that's not what I meant.
My serve has taken a strong step up in the last year.

First serve is faster.
I can now control placement by rotating my address position.
I have even more kick on my 2nd, and can swing 100% on my 2nd serve.

There is much work to be done, but as it stands, my serve is well above the average 4.0 serve.

What I did mean was that none of this happened because of lessons.
It seems to be the only part of the game one can figure out themselves.
I have figured out all the strokes by myself and am constantly improving. Sometimes even I am amazed at how elegant my strokes are.

It is the serve I am still unable to crack. It comes and goes. it is the best when I am coming back from a vacation and have no expectations. The body is relaxed and the serve flows, for about 5 minutes. Once I realize this has happened, I try to repeat it consciously, and the flow is gone.
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
This is why I was joking about becoming a coach. If no coach has been able to improve a player's serve, I could make a fortune just by giving them the same instructions they can get from videos on YT, namely FYB.
That is the right way to go with adults.

There is room for innovation with juniors, though. A coach at my club made a junior boy stand close to the fence at a distance slightly more than an arm's length, and then attached a hoop to the fence at a certain height, and made him toss through the hoop from below, like the opposite direction from basketball. I had never heard of this.

Now you can borrow the idea from this post and incorporate it into your lessons and pass it off as your own.
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
So? My serve is better now than when I was 35.

J
As I said, your foundation was laid as a junior. You are just building on it, like Federer's backhand went from a weak slice to decent topsin as he trained for facing Nadal.. That is not true for the true rec player.
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
As I said, your foundation was laid as a junior. You are just building on it, like Federer's backhand went from a weak slice to decent topsin as he trained for facing Nadal.. That is not true for the true rec player.
We should all endeavor to have such a weak slice...

J
 
That is the right way to go with adults.

There is room for innovation with juniors, though. A coach at my club made a junior boy stand close to the fence at a distance slightly more than an arm's length, and then attached a hoop to the fence at a certain height, and made him toss through the hoop from below, like the opposite direction from basketball. I had never heard of this.

Now you can borrow the idea from this post and incorporate it into your lessons and pass it off as your own.
I did that drill in the two weeks of group lessons I took over two summers when I was a kid. Those were the only lessons I've ever had. I'll be sure to tell my friend that was the coach that he's a genius. This was about 26 years ago by the way...
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
I did that drill in the two weeks of group lessons I took over two summers when I was a kid. Those were the only lessons I've ever had. I'll be sure to tell my friend that was the coach that he's a genius. This was about 26 years ago by the way...
The suggestion was for FRV. He wants to become a coach and do innovative things
 
  • Like
Reactions: FRV
F

FRV

Guest
Wait so who is on these YouTube videos where you are “teaching yourself”?

A tennis coach maybe. I’m totally guessing.
Are you talking to me? That still qualifies as being self-taught, no?

self-taught
/ˈˌself ˈtôt/
adjective

  1. having acquired knowledge or skill on one's own initiative rather than through formal instruction or training.

Edit: I see you may have been in a discussion with sureshs... carry on.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

sureshs

Bionic Poster
So your saying when the coach is in person they are less qualified and do a worse job than recording a video. Interesting. Wonder what other skills are like tennis serving where this is true.
You don't get it all.

The best lessons will make their way into top searches. What you are getting is a crowd-curated list of the best - but of course with possible exceptions due to self-promotion etc. And you get it for free. Is it fair? Maybe not. But then again when we shop at TW, we are agreeing that it is better than most retail shops. And don't forget that the coaches also have access to these videos to improve themselves, and also access to free pro videos to learn from. So their free education options have also expanded. Federer can't complain that coaches are teaching techniques based on his videos without paying for one-on-one sessions with him. Similarly, coaches cannot complain that students can get better information from the Internet than they can provide.
 

Chadalina

Hall of Fame
Adults are more critical than kids. They ask more questions, some pro's cant answer these questions because they are basically reading a script after getting certified.
 
  • Like
Reactions: FRV

sureshs

Bionic Poster
The main advantage of a real-life pro over a free Internet video is the ability of the coach to find out what your basic problem is and suggest a fix. There are some video-based services out there on the Internet and I don't know how good they are, but a good coach can quickly point out the main flaws and suggest ways to fix them. This is something that self-taught parents who teach kids sometimes miss out on. The ability to spot the important problem is related to the "sensitivity" level for a stroke used by a coach - how far from the textbook can the stroke vary before he has to call it unacceptable.

Having said that, people post videos in the Tips section for free crowd-sourced analysis and excellent comments are posted there. That may be better than a single live coach who is just interested in having you around for a long time and does not really address your deficiencies.
 
  • Like
Reactions: FRV

sureshs

Bionic Poster
I used to take lessons in Table Tennis when I was in Orlando with a women who was formerly on the Chinese Olympics team. She was full of praise for me and I never improved. I stopped going.

Then a year ago I went for a meetup here at a large public center with tons of courts and old man "Steve" was offering group lessons for an hour for $5. He took me out of the group and hit for 5 minutes with me, and said you should be either on the forehand side or the backhand side, and rapidly switch between them. A neutral position at the center, which is the recovery position for tennis, is considered no-man's land in table tennis because the opponent will attack your elbow - meaning the ball will turn in such a way that you will be confused whether to use the FH or the BH. In 5 mins for $5, he had imparted a big secret. The second secret he told me was that it is enough for intermediate players to have a defensive FH or BH slice serve which keeps low over the net. Master that and face the returns before trying out the incredible pro serves, because the slow low slice serve is the foundation of all the others. All for $5!

But I haven't yet found my tennis "Steve."
 
If videos were of any help, the world would be filled with 5.0 ATP strokes.
Yet, these videos have millions of views. LOL.

No, the world is filled with people with grotesque strokes who have been working on tennis for a lifetime.
They have worse strokes than a new person who takes one summer of intensive lessons.

Watching a video is next to useless, since you have no ability to monitor and give corrective feedback.
What you THINK you're doing is nothing remotely close to what you're ACTUALLY doing.

Tips are 1%
Correct reps are 99%.

Ask Federer why he still pays a coach.
 
Last edited:

Cindysphinx

G.O.A.T.
This thread is epic. E.P.I.C.

We have tennis pros posting, saying why they like coaching adults. Saying of course they can coach someone to a better serve. Saying of course lessons help people improve.

And we have rec players telling these instructors that they are wrong.

That is exactly what a lot of adult lessons are like: Becky with her EF grip for volleys telling the pro that EF "works for her."

I am loving this. I really am.
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
This thread is epic. E.P.I.C.

We have tennis pros posting, saying why they like coaching adults. Saying of course they can coach someone to a better serve. Saying of course lessons help people improve.

And we have rec players telling these instructors that they are wrong.

That is exactly what a lot of adult lessons are like: Becky with her EF grip for volleys telling the pro that EF "works for her."

I am loving this. I really am.
TW where the people who can't do the thing tell the people who can do the thing that they are wrong.

J
 
F

FRV

Guest
I just like being part of discussions, even if I am the buffoon. Though I was not making an argument for coaches being unable to teach the serve.
 

Chadalina

Hall of Fame
This thread is epic. E.P.I.C.

We have tennis pros posting, saying why they like coaching adults. Saying of course they can coach someone to a better serve. Saying of course lessons help people improve.

And we have rec players telling these instructors that they are wrong.

That is exactly what a lot of adult lessons are like: Becky with her EF grip for volleys telling the pro that EF "works for her."

I am loving this. I really am.
Sadly today, being a pro means you took a class and paid your annual fee. Its not what it used to be, alot of paper pro's out there
 

Cashman

Professional
That is exactly what a lot of adult lessons are like: Becky with her EF grip for volleys telling the pro that EF "works for her."
I don't have an issue with coaches who rebuild strokes with obvious technique problems, like using an EF for volleys. I have a little bit of an issue with coaches who rebuild strokes simply because they are old-fashioned.

Not everyone wants to be playing the latest version of modern tennis. That doesn't mean they don't want to or can't improve the game they've got.
 
Ability to hit hard and not bunt and look good
I believe that is most rec players goal.

Match results are a whole different universe of tennis IQ than pretty strokes.
For match results, ironically, you never need to take a lesson.
Just learn to be a pusher/Junkers/Santoro, and you will dominate 3.5 and 4.0 level tennis
But never beyond 3.5-4.0 tennis.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 
Truth is that many people with pancake grip serve better and faster than those with conti grip. The coach's challenge is to get the student's grip right AND effective.

And without foot faulting and with a high percentage.

Your challenge will not be conti and waiter's tray, which any adult can glean from innumerable free videos, but rather proper toss, balance and coordination in a non-athletic adult who will put it only so many hours of play a week (typically 3 to 4 hour max, with maybe half an hour total for serve practice). Simply saying place your toss where you want it and hit out and high on the ball and all those cliches are already known to the student. And he is NOT going to toss 1000 times to see the toss land in front of him. He will do it 3 times to humor you, that is all.

Can you improve his serve? That is the challenge, and so far not a single coach I have seen has delivered.
I think the challenge you are describing is to change the student’s poor/defeatist attitude, not their grip or swing path.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 
This thread is epic. E.P.I.C.

We have tennis pros posting, saying why they like coaching adults. Saying of course they can coach someone to a better serve. Saying of course lessons help people improve.

And we have rec players telling these instructors that they are wrong.

That is exactly what a lot of adult lessons are like: Becky with her EF grip for volleys telling the pro that EF "works for her."

I am loving this. I really am.
And I am loving your response.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 
Top