Do tennis coaches hate coaching adults?

I've seen 4.5 female teams that patty cake the ball like a 2.5 men's team.
So, that rating is fairly meaningless in the context of tennis stroke development
Getting to men's 4.5 is a different universe of development.

In fact, I have never even seen one adult woman who can hit the tennis ball correctly.
Just 100's of the identical bunting ping pong grandma frying pan game, regardless of 3.0 or 4.5

I've hit with insanely great female players, but they were juniors. Amazing and insanely talented, who would crush any male 4.0
Obviously adult female players who are freaking awesome exist.
For example, the ladies in the TTW racket demo videos have insane strokes, and would also crush any 4.0 male.
But they are former juniors, and we're talking adult learners.

I would love to see video of these supposed players that rose to a high level of tennis skills.
Otherwise, I'm with Suresh. Very few adults ever get good at this game, in the way we are discussing.
It requires the perfect storm of daily hitting, no responsibilities, undemanding job, money for a real coach, and lack of injury.
 
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jm1980 said:
Of course the overwhelming majority of players will float in the 3.0 to 4.0 range for their entire rec "careers"
But I expected more people to be able to make big jumps on a national level, even in a 6 year time frame

These stats actually make suresh's experience of not having seen anyone make the leap somewhat plausible. Especially if you don't hang out with players who are likely to do it (i.e.: relatively young and athletic)
Click to expand...

Yeah maybe I miss this crowd and see them again only when they are down by 0.5 and wear knee braces. I do not consider young players to be rec players. Rec players must have family and have gone through job and financial issues and become somewhat cynical about life.
 
schmke said:
Well, perhaps I missed it, but @sureshs statement wasn't about 3.0 to 4.5.

This statement is clearly not true. There are thousands of . players that have moved up to 4.5 "from below" as being bumped up from 4.0 would count. Over 17K qualify here.

Even looking at at least 3.5 to 4.5 in the past 6 years there are over a thousand.
Click to expand...

You must be wrong because @sureshs hasn't observed it. :p
 
sureshs said:
Yeah maybe I miss this crowd and see them again only when they are down by 0.5 and wear knee braces. I do not consider young players to be rec players. Rec players must have family and have gone through job and financial issues and become somewhat cynical about life.
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Lol, is this cynicism a requirement?

Admittedly older players are generally outside of my tennis circle. But I have seen a 55+ lady start at 2.5 three to four years ago who got to play at a solid 3.5 level. She was super gung ho and played almost every day. Sadly she ended up getting an elbow injury, but I can see her getting to 4.0 some day
 
jm1980 said:
Lol, is this cynicism a requirement?

Admittedly older players are generally outside of my tennis circle. But I have seen a 55+ lady start at 2.5 three to four years ago who got to play at a solid 3.5 level. She was super gung ho and played almost every day. Sadly she ended up getting an elbow injury, but I can see her getting to 4.0 some day
Click to expand...

Cindy did that years ago
 
Dartagnan64 said:
I started getting into tennis 4 years ago. Previously tennis was a sport I played with my wife bunting balls around and running to get exercise. I had no serve other then a flat pancake serve to the middle of the box. I have always been scared to really swing at the ball because of prior shoulder surgery. I tried to just get the point started. Then I joined a club and decided I should try to learn this game. Watched a lot of videos on youtube, took a few lessons to understand the basics, and practiced with my wife 3x a week.

My serve has gone from a 30 mph bunt to a solid 70 mph (still a bit scared to really swing). I've learned to get power from the legs, core and forearm to compensate for the lack of shoulder input. I hit topspin, slice and flat serves and can direct to either corner of the box. It is possible to get better and improve your serve as an adult but it's taken a lot of practice.

No idea where my NTRP rating would be but I'd estimate i started as an average 3.0 and am now a good 3.5 - low 4.0 kind of player. I think getting to 4.5 would have been a possibility if I started this sport seriously at 30 or if I hadn't destroyed my shoulder playing football in my youth. But it would have taken a lot of work. Whereas golf I started playing at 15 and I got my handicap down to 7 without ever taking a lesson. I will always be a better golfer than tennis player. Starting something young really helps.
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Yes, because of neuroplasticity.....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 
ChaelAZ said:
What about 50+ year old players who still take lessons and over time have moved from 3.5 to solid 4.5? Or 60+ year olds?
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sureshs said:
No such person exists. Though tales are told of him, he remains elusive like the Yeti.
Click to expand...
I've seen players who were new to tennis, who were ex-pro athletes or excellent athletes in other sports, who progressed rapidly taking lessons followed by hard work.
 
kramer woodie said:
I have been thinking about your question, ("do you teach "the loop"?), for a couple days. First off I don't really know or understand what you mean by the loop.
Click to expand...

Thanks for elucidating your techniques in such detail and your generosity giving lessons for free! The video below is the "loop", Roger Federer is a great example of it along with all players "as seen on TV". Coaches who instruct their charges to take the racket back with a straight arm and hit "high to low", do not do that themselves when feeding the ball!

https://video.search.yahoo.com/sear...=7040c949232af7d32cf4a9854849d499&action=view
 
tennis tom said:
Thanks for elucidating your techniques in such detail and your generosity giving lessons for free! The video below is the "loop", Roger Federer is a great example of it along with all players "as seen on TV". Coaches who instruct their charges to take the racket back with a straight arm and hit "high to low", do not do that themselves when feeding the ball!

https://video.search.yahoo.com/sear...=7040c949232af7d32cf4a9854849d499&action=view
Click to expand...

Pretty sure I do, would have to video myself feeding.

J
 
Badmrfrosty said:
Maybe it's just the private lessons I've had but I always get the impression coaches really only want to coach juniors. Is this the case? Seems tough to find a coach that is invested in improving adult rec play.
Click to expand...

I really like coaching adults who are seriously curious about becoming a better singles and/or doubles player and are willing to put in the time.

I've found that the first thing I have to evaluate is their instincts in match-play situations. So if a player comes to me, and I've never seen them hit a ball before, and he/she says they want to work on their forehand for example, I'll arrange for that player to play a set against a same level opponent so that I can see if their forehand technique truly is the problem.

Lots of times their stroke technique is fine but their instincts of where and when to play it need a different mindset. Brent
 
webtennis said:
I really like coaching adults who are seriously curious about becoming a better singles and/or doubles player and are willing to put in the time.

I've found that the first thing I have to evaluate is their instincts in match-play situations. So if a player comes to me, and I've never seen them hit a ball before, and he/she says they want to work on their forehand for example, I'll arrange for that player to play a set against a same level opponent so that I can see if their forehand technique truly is the problem.

Lots of times their stroke technique is fine but their instincts of where and when to play it need a different mindset. Brent
Click to expand...

That is wonderful. It is hard to have coaches take the time to watch match play .... and perhaps because too few are willing to pay for that time (?) ... a lot can be revealed in match play .... what looks good on the practice court falls to bits and pieces in a match due to footwork, positioning, decision making and of course match stress.
 
webtennis said:
I really like coaching adults who are seriously curious about becoming a better singles and/or doubles player and are willing to put in the time.

I've found that the first thing I have to evaluate is their instincts in match-play situations. So if a player comes to me, and I've never seen them hit a ball before, and he/she says they want to work on their forehand for example, I'll arrange for that player to play a set against a same level opponent so that I can see if their forehand technique truly is the problem.

Lots of times their stroke technique is fine but their instincts of where and when to play it need a different mindset. Brent
Click to expand...

You sound like a good coach.
Far too often, the opposite occurs.
100% focus on strokes, and zero focus on match smarts.
That's when you have people with decent strokes but still losing matches to much smarter pushers/junkers.
 
webtennis said:
I really like coaching adults who are seriously curious about becoming a better singles and/or doubles player and are willing to put in the time.

I've found that the first thing I have to evaluate is their instincts in match-play situations. So if a player comes to me, and I've never seen them hit a ball before, and he/she says they want to work on their forehand for example, I'll arrange for that player to play a set against a same level opponent so that I can see if their forehand technique truly is the problem.

Lots of times their stroke technique is fine but their instincts of where and when to play it need a different mindset. Brent
Click to expand...

@webtennis Are you the legendary Brent Abel? Photo seems to match. You were playing at the May Hard Court Nationals at LJBTC, right? I was a volunteer there working for Bill Kellogg.

People of your level are seldom seen on the board.
 
S&V-not_dead_yet said:
The general attitude is "I want to improve significantly but I don't want to change anything." The coach will think "Harry Potter and Roger Federer wouldn't be able to fix your game with that approach."
Click to expand...

Good call on the need for students to actually put in the work. There really aren't any quick fixes that have lasting results. I've always felt that my job is only about 20% of a student's overall improvement. I can dispense the info, but if they're not willing to put in the work, then it's not going to have any lasting effect. Brent
 
OnTheLine said:
That is wonderful. It is hard to have coaches take the time to watch match play .... and perhaps because too few are willing to pay for that time (?) ... a lot can be revealed in match play .... what looks good on the practice court falls to bits and pieces in a match due to footwork, positioning, decision making and of course match stress.
Click to expand...

And of course I'm assuming the a new student is a competitive player (tournament, league, etc.) who's open minded to learning more about "how to play the game" rather than just drilling stroke technique. There's no question though that some stroke technique tweaks can really help a player in certain match-play situations. Brent
 
Dartagnan64 said:
I'd say the numbers are what I expected. I wouldn't expect a lot of players to make huge strides. We all know people that did but was also know more people that stick within 1.0 NTRP their whole careers. There's a reason 3.0-4.0 make up the overwhelming majority of tennis players.
Click to expand...
Just to put a fine point how big that majority is. Men & women for the 3.0, 3.5, and 4.0 levels make up 84% of the people in USTA leagues.

Cindysphinx said:
I guess so. I became a 4.0 at 51, after starting as a 2.5 about 8 years earlier.
Click to expand...
Definitely using PEDs. I've heard adult women can't even swing rackets from a "reliable" source. :cool:

schmke said:
This statement is clearly not true. There are thousands of . players that have moved up to 4.5 "from below" as being bumped up from 4.0 would count.
Click to expand...
The line between willful ignorance and trolling is indiscernible to me from a few posters when it comes to the subject of player advancement.

Just this week my team played against a guy who's in his mid 50s. Five years ago he was playing 3.5, and he's currently appealed down from 4.5. He'll almost definitely be rated too high to appeal back down at the end of this year. He doesn't even take lessons. Likewise one of my regular doubles partners was bumped to 4.5 last year after a long time at 4.0.
 
BounceHitBounceHit said:
... neuroplasticity.....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Click to expand...
sureshs said:
That term is now used for the ability of the brain to rewire itself in old age!
Click to expand...

I'm going in for the new and improved version of neuroplastics--silicone--it's much more real feeling and flexible--I'm having the procedure done at one of the top teaching hospitals on the left coast--and, having them throw in a lobotomy as long as they have me open.
 
sureshs said:
People of your level are seldom seen on the board.
Click to expand...
Kudos to the OP for starting this thread! It's certainly attracted a lot of pros--wonder how they caught wind of it, or have they been lurking here looking to pick up some useful tips from the hackers and hackettes?
 
tennis tom said:
Kudos to the OP for starting this thread! It's certainly attracted a lot of pros--wonder how they caught wind of it, or have they been lurking here looking to pick up some useful tips from the hackers and hackettes?
Click to expand...

There have been pros in the Tips section for years
 
Well just found this which I thought this was a good break down of player types and coaches. Pros might be interested in hearing another current pro talk about his experiences and frustrations.

https://www.essentialtennis.com/find-perfect-tennis-pro-essential-tennis-podcast-277/

I don't remember exactly as the dude can be super long winded but good content. He gives his experience as a coach and makes the following observations which are paraphrased below.

I still don't get player 2 but he confirmed what others on this thread have said.

For players:
1.Hit and Giggle, they just are having fun
2.Don't change my stroke,
3.Mastery seeking

Coachs:
1.Ring Master
2.Bolt on technique tweaker
3.Long term coach
 
schmke said:
There are thousands of . players that have moved up to 4.5 "from below" as being bumped up from 4.0 would count. Over 17K qualify here.

Even looking at at least 3.5 to 4.5 in the past 6 years there are over a thousand.
Click to expand...

That is a substantial move and kind of on par with the group I started with about 10 years ago. Most started 3.0 or 3.5 and most moved to 4.0 and have played there consistently since. We had our whoel 3.5 team setup with a couple pros to do drills and skills, and that helped a lot.

A smaller group has moved to 4.5, but stll quite a few. 4.5 is a smaller group, so most the guys/girls who move up to 4.5 always want to move back to our 4.0 sweet spot - the combo of good competition and still fun.
 
ChaelAZ said:
That is a substantial move and kind of on par with the group I started with about 10 years ago. Most started 3.0 or 3.5 and most moved to 4.0 and have played there consistently since. We had our whoel 3.5 team setup with a couple pros to do drills and skills, and that helped a lot.

A smaller group has moved to 4.5, but stll quite a few. 4.5 is a smaller group, so most the guys/girls who move up to 4.5 always want to move back to our 4.0 sweet spot - the combo of good competition and still fun.
Click to expand...

Is this singles or dubs?
 
webtennis said:
Good call on the need for students to actually put in the work. There really aren't any quick fixes that have lasting results. I've always felt that my job is only about 20% of a student's overall improvement. I can dispense the info, but if they're not willing to put in the work, then it's not going to have any lasting effect. Brent
Click to expand...

Love the "What's The Right Shot?" series, Brent!

Interestingly, I find that I sometimes come up with different answers when I view the freeze-frame vs playing in real-time. Usually, my freeze frame idea is too high-risk. And one cannot play an actual point in slow-motion.
 
J011yroger said:
I remember it like it was yesterday, a laundry basket of dead balls and one of those dreadful aluminum racquets.

J
Click to expand...

A wooden frame from the discount store, a cinder block wall rising two stories and a plane of manicured grass situated immediately behind my grandfather’s church. I used the same three balls for over a year. The first HS match I played was the first time I stepped on a real court. I quickly realized the chalk targets I’d been given begrudging permission to draw on that wall translated nicely to a real match (just as my Bobby Riggs tennis book assured me they would) I also learned I was a natural server and loved to compete. I won that match. [emoji6]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 
ChaelAZ said:
That is a substantial move and kind of on par with the group I started with about 10 years ago. Most started 3.0 or 3.5 and most moved to 4.0 and have played there consistently since. We had our whoel 3.5 team setup with a couple pros to do drills and skills, and that helped a lot.

A smaller group has moved to 4.5, but stll quite a few. 4.5 is a smaller group, so most the guys/girls who move up to 4.5 always want to move back to our 4.0 sweet spot - the combo of good competition and still fun.
Click to expand...

Moving up to 4.0 is ambiguous with respect to tennis development in context of the subject of this thread (lessons)

One can get to 4.0 by playing for say 10-20 years, and never taking a single lesson. It's called junker/pusher tennis, which I 100% respect, b/c it is so damn effective.
But, it does not require lessons, just brute force time spent on the court. Now, why do some junk strokes end up at 4.0 while other junk strokes stay at 3.0? Dunno.

The other kind of 4.0 is the "pretty" 4.5 style (ATP) strokes. That is much more a product of lessons, and more of what I think about when I hear "advanced strokes"
I am often told that I have 4.5 strokes, even though I am a 3.5 or low 4.0. And I will lose to a 4.0 junker every time.

So, it really depends what you're talking about with respect to tennis development.
Two people can be 4.0 and have nothing similar about their game, strokes, or development path.
Getting to 4.0 via junking and ugly strokes is much more common than someone who develops "advanced strokes."
The latter is basically a unicorn that is unheard of in adult tennis.
 
One curiosity for me regarding adults who take lessons ..... adults who take lessons and don't actually play a match .... ever, not a league, tournament, ladder, pick-up ... no matches of any sort at all.

I know a handful of these players. Both male and female, as young as 30 ish as old as 60s. They go to clinics, take private lessons ... are at the club 3+ days a week. Although oddly, can't seem to remember ever seeing any of them serve.

This is so counter to my own mindset and drive. I push myself to improve, practice and work in order to be able to beat my opponents and to be able to challenge players that are at a higher level than I am currently.

I thoroughly enjoy any time on the court, practice or match. It annoys my husband, but I would prefer to be on the tennis court over just about anything else. But I do not think I would want to invest the money for lessons if I was never going to test those skills in a match. And I do not know if I would push myself as hard as I do if it wasn't in prep for playing matches.

I guess a part of me is envious of their attitude, although I wouldn't change my own mindset.
 
For them, "tennis" is hitting balls in a supervised clinic.
They are not preparing for a match, it is their form of a group activity.
This also shows that clinics have little to do with tennis development.
Taking private lessons does seem odd. Maybe they play at different times than you?
 
OnTheLine said:
One curiosity for me regarding adults who take lessons ..... adults who take lessons and don't actually play a match .... ever, not a league, tournament, ladder, pick-up ... no matches of any sort at all.

I know a handful of these players. Both male and female, as young as 30 ish as old as 60s. They go to clinics, take private lessons ... are at the club 3+ days a week. Although oddly, can't seem to remember ever seeing any of them serve.

This is so counter to my own mindset and drive. I push myself to improve, practice and work in order to be able to beat my opponents and to be able to challenge players that are at a higher level than I am currently.

I thoroughly enjoy any time on the court, practice or match. It annoys my husband, but I would prefer to be on the tennis court over just about anything else. But I do not think I would want to invest the money for lessons if I was never going to test those skills in a match. And I do not know if I would push myself as hard as I do if it wasn't in prep for playing matches.

I guess a part of me is envious of their attitude, although I wouldn't change my own mindset.
Click to expand...
Taking lessons and never playing makes total sense to me. Lots of people want to make up their story in their head and be able to avoid competing, it’s too painful. Image is everything. It’s why people get countless degrees and retreat into academia rather than compete. They can tell themselves (and fool some people) they have abilities of a higher level and not have to face reality, because they don’t enter the arena.
 
tennis tom said:
Thanks for elucidating your techniques in such detail and your generosity giving lessons for free! The video below is the "loop", Roger Federer is a great example of it along with all players "as seen on TV". Coaches who instruct their charges to take the racket back with a straight arm and hit "high to low", do not do that themselves when feeding the ball!

https://video.search.yahoo.com/sear...=7040c949232af7d32cf4a9854849d499&action=view
Click to expand...

tennis tom

I never said take the racquet back with a straight arm. By the time the forearm becomes straight with the upper arm, the racquet is all the way back, period. Take a piece of chalk and on a vertical chalkboard, put the chalk to the board with your elbow bent, then move the chalk to the side
using mostly your forearm becoming straight with your upper arm, you will find your arm is behind you and your arm is now straight. The chalk mark you drew will be a back (take back) and downward arc.

As for, starting with the head of the racquet pointing toward the net, I said there are no rules set in concrete. Starting with the racquet almost vertical is ok, but I use my way to get students to carry the racquet higher because today's game the ball bounces higher because of the spin and gritty court surfaces. Therefore, it is easier to start high and be quick to a high bounce than it is to carry the racquet head below you waist and have to move up for a high bounce. Also, I hope for my students to be able to learn to buggy whip for both high and low bounces. You can't buggy whip with a long take back. Plus, starting high you can slightly disguise a slice and gain racquet head speed momentum for more backspin.

As for the Fed video of Brady explaining Fed's forehand, just look at Brady showing (dry swinging) the racquet take back. His demo shows the racquet strings on the hitting side of the face pointing towards the back fence. His elbow has pulled behind his hip. Really made me laugh! That is
an impossibly long swing path. The only good thing I saw in the video was when Fed himself was staring down his straight arm at contact point.
Everyone should learn that. As for Federer, his forehand style is a combination of both old-school and new modern technique. I should confess
Federer is my favorite player to watch other than Dustin Brown. However, it would be impossible and reckless to teach a student Brown's technique, nor would it be smart to try. It would take tremendous athletic ability and hand to eye coordination on the students part which so few people have. Brown a hugely naturally gifted athlete.

Now, yes, I am a believer is the Rick Macci style of forehand. It would not surprise me if Macci got some of his ideas from watching Jai Alai in Florida. Catching and absorbing the power of the ball with the elbow bent, hand in front, coiling the body and letting the arm move back to being straight then throwing the cesta forward straight armed with tremendous body uncoiling. That darn ball is moving 190 mph. That is fast, I hope you would agree.

Aloha
 
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TimeToPlaySets said:
If videos were of any help, the world would be filled with 5.0 ATP strokes.
Yet, these videos have millions of views. LOL.

No, the world is filled with people with grotesque strokes who have been working on tennis for a lifetime.
They have worse strokes than a new person who takes one summer of intensive lessons.

Watching a video is next to useless, since you have no ability to monitor and give corrective feedback.
What you THINK you're doing is nothing remotely close to what you're ACTUALLY doing.

Tips are 1%
Correct reps are 99%.

Ask Federer why he still pays a coach.
Click to expand...

Wow, You know everything about tennis. You need to have your own forum.
 
OnTheLine said:
One curiosity for me regarding adults who take lessons ..... adults who take lessons and don't actually play a match .... ever, not a league, tournament, ladder, pick-up ... no matches of any sort at all.

I know a handful of these players. Both male and female, as young as 30 ish as old as 60s. They go to clinics, take private lessons ... are at the club 3+ days a week. Although oddly, can't seem to remember ever seeing any of them serve.

This is so counter to my own mindset and drive. I push myself to improve, practice and work in order to be able to beat my opponents and to be able to challenge players that are at a higher level than I am currently.

I thoroughly enjoy any time on the court, practice or match. It annoys my husband, but I would prefer to be on the tennis court over just about anything else. But I do not think I would want to invest the money for lessons if I was never going to test those skills in a match. And I do not know if I would push myself as hard as I do if it wasn't in prep for playing matches.

I guess a part of me is envious of their attitude, although I wouldn't change my own mindset.
Click to expand...

I know a couple guys like that at our club. Part of the early morning crew with me and my wife. My wife and I have a morning session routine of mini tennis, CC groundies, volley and overhead practice, 1 set of regular singles and one set of one on one doubles. While we are doing this, the two guys are monotonously hitting mid court and NML rallies endlessly. Never seen either play a match or serve. Or even play outdoors for that matter.

Matches are crucial to figure out what you need to work on. Many times I come out of a match thinking, "If only I had that shot in my armamentarium I could have countered this guy." Then i go work on that shot. It's where I learned how important overhead practice was. Without facing an incessant string of lob kings and queens, I'd have never thought the overhead was a crucial stroke.
 
Badmrfrosty said:
Taking lessons and never playing makes total sense to me. Lots of people want to make up their story in their head and be able to avoid competing, it’s too painful. Image is everything. It’s why people get countless degrees and retreat into academia rather than compete. They can tell themselves (and fool some people) they have abilities of a higher level and not have to face reality, because they don’t enter the arena.
Click to expand...

That is not how academics work, but if you don't realize it already, you probably never will. If you have worked in industries where every single idea can be traced back to some Professor and its first implementors to the students of that Professor, you will realize how it is in reality. I am not one of them but work closely with such people.

Comparing them to rec tennis players who don't play matches is ridiculous.
 
Badmrfrosty said:
It’s why people get countless degrees and retreat into academia rather than compete.
Click to expand...

They're competing all right; they just use a different scoring system:
- peer review-published papers
- prestigious awards
- tenure track
- department head/chair status
- # of grad students
- funding
- the size/location of one's office
- rubbing shoulders with the elite
 
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