Do you agree that Rafa´s serve is weak for top 10 player?

Do you agree that Rafa´s serve is weak for top 10 player?

  • Yes

    Votes: 36 48.6%
  • No

    Votes: 38 51.4%

  • Total voters
    74

Romismak

Rookie
Rafa improoved his serve over the years, but still his serve is i think not a weapon like many other top players have their serves as weapon. He had some great matches or tournaments- US open 2010 where his serve was great, or he can use his lefty-wide serve, but overall when you look on his serve and statistics it doesn´t look so good. When we look on aces, only Ferrer is hitting less aces average per match than Rafa - and we all know what height Ferrer has - so it is logical that his serve isn´t big weapon. But funny is that Ferrer is above Rafa in category - points won on 1st serve - 73% Ferrer, Rafa 72%. This is funny, because we can assume that Rafa has 2nd best groundgame after Nole so it is interresting that Ferrer won more 1st serve points % than Rafa. Only Monfils is currently worse in this category - also has 72% points won on 1st serve, but RAfa is above him in statistics. So Rafa is 9th from 10 guys from top 10 in points won on 1st serve- we can assume that Monfils had pretty bad season so far, only last few HC tournaments were good, - but i think Monfils 1st serve is much better than RAfa´s and he most likely will be ahead of Rafa too in this category. So in aces and points won on 1st serve Rafa is one of worst if not worst from top 10 players. Rafa is good on points won on 2nd serve - what is logical, because after 2nd serve there are more often rallies so it is pretty clear that Rafa would be doing great in this. He is 1st in this category. In category SERVICE GAMES WON - Rafa is 15th overall and 7th from top 10 - this is again thanks to rallies after serves-and RAfa´s great 2nd serve statistics. But overall i think his serve is 2nd worst after Ferrer´s in top 10 and this is bad for his game. For example Federer or Djokovic have better serves and it is not so logical like in Berdych, Soderling case- big hitters with powerfull serves, but Federer- has the same toss, great motion and is skillfull and talented and has great serve variety, Djokovic thanks to his confidence has much better serve than he had last season and now better than Rafa´s. Even small Almagro has great quick motion which gives him many free points on 1st serve.
 

BULLZ1LLA

Banned
(Nadal owns the record for fewest breaks by a US Open champion. Roddick and Nadal actually, 5 breaks each.
Nadal.jpg

His serve is definitely better on hardcourt than at Wimbledon. Hadn't dropped a set at the Australian Open this year until the QF injury vs Ferrer
108283889_display_image.jpg

)
 
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Both, first serve is good for a top 10, second serve is not. His shared record for USO also includes playing one of the easiest draws ever to the final.
 

Manus Domini

Hall of Fame
(Nadal owns the US Open record for fewest breaks. Roddick and Nadal actually, 5 breaks each)

Also, the fact that he is tied with Djoker and Fed for 2nd serve points won, and played more matches than they, shows it isn't weak. Sure, he's only 26 at first serve percentage, but only 5 others played over 50 matches this year.

And the #1 first server only played 32 matches
 

Manus Domini

Hall of Fame
Both, first serve is good for a top 10, second serve is not. His shared record for USO also includes playing one of the easiest draws ever to the final.

Yeah, who has a better 2nd serve point win record? No one. 61 matches so far, and 57% win on the 2nd serve. Who else has both of those? No other player. Federer and Djokovic also are at 57%, but they don't have his # of matches...
 

TennisCJC

Legend
Both serves are not strong for top 10 player. He backs it up well with his ground game. I have often said if Nadal played right handed, he would not be anywhere near as effective as he is without drastic improvements to his game. His lefty serve wide is his bread and butter serve and his cross court lefty forehand is go to ground stroke. If he were right handed both of these strokes would be going into the strength of a right handed opponented. His serve would get spanked if it was the same quality and he was right handed. His forehand also would not be quite as effective as he leaves it short a lot and a right handed forehand would attack it far more often.
 

PimpMyGame

Hall of Fame
Yeah, who has a better 2nd serve point win record? No one. 61 matches so far, and 57% win on the 2nd serve. Who else has both of those? No other player. Federer and Djokovic also are at 57%, but they don't have his # of matches...

I have to agree with this. Why would you need a booming second serve when more often than not you can either outrally your opponent or "tease" them into swinging wildly on the return.

I have watched Nadal many times and wondered why he has so much success with his service games but the stats speak for themselves in this instance...
 

Tammo

Banned
No, Nadal's serve is good enough to be in the top ten. In terms of speed it's probably as fast as Federer's.
 

Manus Domini

Hall of Fame
Both serves are not strong for top 10 player. He backs it up well with his ground game. I have often said if Nadal played right handed, he would not be anywhere near as effective as he is without drastic improvements to his game. His lefty serve wide is his bread and butter serve and his cross court lefty forehand is go to ground stroke. If he were right handed both of these strokes would be going into the strength of a right handed opponented. His serve would get spanked if it was the same quality and he was right handed. His forehand also would not be quite as effective as he leaves it short a lot and a right handed forehand would attack it far more often.

Federer backs his up with his ground game, as does Djokovic. Since when did having a steady serve mean being unable to back it up afterwards?
 

icazares

Semi-Pro
Nadal's serve is underrated. It's a very good serve, with a lot of kick. Check stats for how often he gets broken.
 

bluetrain4

G.O.A.T.
At times, it's a weapon, but overall, I'd say it's not a fantastic serve within the context of top players. But, it's still usually pretty good, though he has his off days. Being a lefty obviously helps immensely.
 

Crisstti

Legend
I have to agree with this. Why would you need a booming second serve when more often than not you can either outrally your opponent or "tease" them into swinging wildly on the return.

I have watched Nadal many times and wondered why he has so much success with his service games but the stats speak for themselves in this instance...

Well, he seems like he needs a stronger serve against Novak...

Commentators over here have been saying lately that Nadal "falls" to his right when serving, and that that isn't good at all. Does anyone notice that?. Should it be a problem?.

Also, Toni said that Rafa has coordination problems with his serve because he's right handed...
 

Manus Domini

Hall of Fame
Well, he seems like he needs a stronger serve against Novak...

Commentators over here have been saying lately that Nadal "falls" to his right when serving, and that that isn't good at all. Does anyone notice that?. Should it be a problem?.

Also, Toni said that Rafa has coordination problems with his serve because he's right handed...

Everyone needs a stronger serve against Novak right now ;)
 
Yeah, who has a better 2nd serve point win record? No one. 61 matches so far, and 57% win on the 2nd serve. Who else has both of those? No other player. Federer and Djokovic also are at 57%, but they don't have his # of matches...
That is a stacked stat, since he takes less chance on the first having a higher percentage, much easier to have a higher win percentage on a smaller amount of second serves. He also seems to be more like the women with when his double faults happen.
 

Manus Domini

Hall of Fame
That is a stacked stat, since he takes less chance on the first having a higher percentage, much easier to have a higher win percentage on a smaller amount of second serves. He also seems to be more like the women with when his double faults happen.

Nadal has 1% higher first serve percentage than Novak and 3% higher than Federer.

At the same time, that implies that if he would accept more faults, his serve would be much stronger, and thus, it isn't weak.
 

DRII

G.O.A.T.
I agree with the OP, as far as this year is concerned. Nadal is serving much worse than last year overall! The only tournament that Nadal served decently in was Wimbledon.
 
Nadal has 1% higher first serve percentage than Novak and 3% higher than Federer.

At the same time, that implies that if he would accept more faults, his serve would be much stronger, and thus, it isn't weak.
My mistake, I did not check stats. I assumed he was around 70%... Maybe why he is not doing as good this year? I only argued his ssecond serve is weak, not his first. For the generally high percentage it is good enough. Murray is the weaker of the top 4 especially on the 2nd. These two also seem to be more susceptible to the moment on 2nd serves.
 

BULLZ1LLA

Banned
I agree with the OP, as far as this year is concerned. Nadal is serving much worse than last year overall! The only tournament that Nadal served decently in was Wimbledon.

(At the Australian Open, Nadal did not drop a set until the QF when the injury took place [and even then he was I think 5-5 in 1st set playing with that injury, which took place in the 2nd game of the match]. And at Roland Garros it was by choice. Toni and Nadal both said that the plan was to spin the serve in on clay this year and simply out-last the opponents. Looks like he was trying to play the points as long as possible)
 

Clarky21

Banned
(At the Australian Open, Nadal did not drop a set until the QF when the injury took place [and even then he was I think 5-5 in 1st set playing with that injury, which took place in the 2nd game of the match]. And at Roland Garros it was by choice. Toni and Nadal both said that the plan was to spin the serve in on clay this year and simply out-last the opponents. Looks like he was trying to play the points as long as possible)

It does not matter that he had not dropped a set at the AO this year. He was obviously in some sort of physical distress. He looked pale,sickly,and was sweating profusely. He also did not play well throughout that tournie,either.
 

Clarky21

Banned
Lol. During the USO 2010 he hit his flattest serves ever.

Yep,and that's what made it so good. He flattened it out big time,and got extra pace on it in the process. He will most likely never come anywhere near serving that well again. It's just not natural to him as it seems all he wants to do is spin the mess out of the ball. People should hold a funeral for that USO serve,grieve,and get over it. It's gone for good.
 

MichaelNadal

Bionic Poster
Yep,and that's what made it so good. He flattened it out big time,and got extra pace on it in the process. He will most likely never come anywhere near serving that well again. It's just not natural to him,as it seems all he wants to do is spin the mess out of the ball. People should hold a funeral for that USO serve,grieve,and get over it. It's gone for good.

Lol :twisted:
 

TTMR

Hall of Fame
I was in awe of that USO 2010 serve.

Having said that, Nadal was actually near the top of first service points won percentage for most of 2010, so it really wasn't a 'one tournament wonder' serve. He varied it well across surfaces (slice/kick on natural, flattened out significantly on the faster hard). I remember him being third in that category when I looked it up last year (summer 2010), and this year he is 26th. I am not sure what happened.
 

bluetrain4

G.O.A.T.
I was in awe of that USO 2010 serve.

Having said that, Nadal was actually near the top of first service points won percentage for most of 2010, so it really wasn't a 'one tournament wonder' serve. He varied it well across surfaces (slice/kick on natural, flattened out significantly on the faster hard). I remember him being third in that category when I looked it up last year (summer 2010), and this year he is 26th. I am not sure what happened.

I wonder why 2010 USO-style serving didn't continue. Clearly, he was focused on going for bigger serves and went out of his way to do so. Maybe he was slightly out of his comfort zone, though at least for that one tournament he went outside of the box spectacularly. Serving takes a lot out of you, so maybe he decided to not go for that much all the time.
 

BULLZ1LLA

Banned
Yep,and that's what made it so good. He flattened it out big time,and got extra pace on it in the process. He will most likely never come anywhere near serving that well again. It's just not natural to him as it seems all he wants to do is spin the mess out of the ball. People should hold a funeral for that USO serve,grieve,and get over it. It's gone for good.

(But he didn't serve fast in the US Open final, 2mph less than at Wimbledon final)
 

BULLZ1LLA

Banned
I wonder why 2010 USO-style serving didn't continue. Clearly, he was focused on going for bigger serves and went out of his way to do so. Maybe he was slightly out of his comfort zone, though at least for that one tournament he went outside of the box spectacularly. Serving takes a lot out of you, so maybe he decided to not go for that much all the time.

(But let's stick to the facts. He only served over 120mph twice at the 2010 US Open, and only 116mph in the final. And he served 118mph at Wimbledon final this year)
 

Caracalla

Rookie
I know a guy 6' 5" who usually returns for Rafa.. and serves to him. during US OPEN.. he said Rafa's serve is not only strong but weird to return.. he mentioned that he had problems keeping it strong because of his muscle flexibility or something.. but it can reach 140mph no problem..

I never witnessed 140mph by Rafa though.. but I believe him that he can do it especially during practise sessions..
 

DRII

G.O.A.T.
I was in awe of that USO 2010 serve.

Having said that, Nadal was actually near the top of first service points won percentage for most of 2010, so it really wasn't a 'one tournament wonder' serve. He varied it well across surfaces (slice/kick on natural, flattened out significantly on the faster hard). I remember him being third in that category when I looked it up last year (summer 2010), and this year he is 26th. I am not sure what happened.

Thank you for the stats!

I'm glad all these posts are bolstering my point (qualitative asessment), since early this year, that Nadal is just not playing as well as last year -- his form is not nearly as high!

This also suggest that the field is relatively weak this year, given Nadal's results - besides Nole for the most part!!!
 

Clay lover

Legend
Naw, Djoktards will continue to claim that Nadal is still playing his best tennis despite his crappy first serve this year.
 

DRII

G.O.A.T.
Yeah exactly...

Its not Nole's fault, but to deny that this year is weaker than last, in terms of tennis form and competition, is delusional!
 

TennisCJC

Legend
Federer backs his up with his ground game, as does Djokovic. Since when did having a steady serve mean being unable to back it up afterwards?

It's not a sin to back it up well. I believe Nadal wins high % of 2nd serves because he is excellent from the backcourt but not because his 2nd serve is excellent. Federer, Roddick, Lubi, Ivo, and Isner win points because of quality of service. Nadal serves intelligently using lefty spin wisely to setup points. But, his service speed and spin is not particularly great. This summer it appears to be worse than ever. Second serves were short and weak in Montreal and Cincy. If he were right handed which would allow right handed players to run around 2nd serves more easily, he would get killed with his 2nd serve. He did have his best service performance in 2010 USO.
 

Manus Domini

Hall of Fame
It's not a sin to back it up well. I believe Nadal wins high % of 2nd serves because he is excellent from the backcourt but not because his 2nd serve is excellent. Federer, Roddick, Lubi, Ivo, and Isner win points because of quality of service. Nadal serves intelligently using lefty spin wisely to setup points. But, his service speed and spin is not particularly great. This summer it appears to be worse than ever. Second serves were short and weak in Montreal and Cincy. If he were right handed which would allow right handed players to run around 2nd serves more easily, he would get killed with his 2nd serve. He did have his best service performance in 2010 USO.

I said a steady, as in not weak, serve. I would never say his serve is great like Roddick's is, but it's not weak is my point.
 

Romismak

Rookie
Interresting how many though his serve is good- i mean of course now- this season or last month- but really his serve for top 10 player is not good - ok guys like Berdych, Soderling, even Tsonga we can include- was top 10 last week - this guys are out of his league, their 1st serves are huge and 2nd serve depends from player how confident is he, how much he can risk or how safe serve he will play. But besides those guys with huge serves, other top 10 are also better- Almagro has great quick service motion and much bette serve, now confident DJokovic has better serve - with hitting pretty slow - only 200km are Novak´s 1st serves fastest serves in most matches, than Roger has great toss and is talented- his serve is great variable, even Murray on good day can hit 210km bombs on T all day and win many free points. Only weaker guy seems to be on serve DAvid Ferrer - who is we can say clay-courter and is shorter than Rafa. And than we have Monfils and Fish- both with quite better serves. Really Rafa in top 10 with quite week serve- overall comparing to top 100 it is not bad of course, but this thread is about him for top 10 player- compare him to other top 10 and you see yourself.
 

Clay lover

Legend
Interresting how many though his serve is good- i mean of course now- this season or last month- but really his serve for top 10 player is not good - ok guys like Berdych, Soderling, even Tsonga we can include- was top 10 last week - this guys are out of his league, their 1st serves are huge and 2nd serve depends from player how confident is he, how much he can risk or how safe serve he will play. But besides those guys with huge serves, other top 10 are also better- Almagro has great quick service motion and much bette serve, now confident DJokovic has better serve - with hitting pretty slow - only 200km are Novak´s 1st serves fastest serves in most matches, than Roger has great toss and is talented- his serve is great variable, even Murray on good day can hit 210km bombs on T all day and win many free points. Only weaker guy seems to be on serve DAvid Ferrer - who is we can say clay-courter and is shorter than Rafa. And than we have Monfils and Fish- both with quite better serves. Really Rafa in top 10 with quite week serve- overall comparing to top 100 it is not bad of course, but this thread is about him for top 10 player- compare him to other top 10 and you see yourself.

Weak FOR a top 10 player and weak COMPARED to other top 10 players are two seperate things.

Other top 10 players may have rocket serves but little other weapons to show for it. The question is if Nadal has a good enough serve to be in the top 10, not whether he has a better serve than other players currently in the top 10.
 

Manus Domini

Hall of Fame
Weak FOR a top 10 player and weak COMPARED to other top 10 players are two seperate things.

Other top 10 players may have rocket serves but little other weapons to show for it. The question is if Nadal has a good enough serve to be in the top 10, not whether he has a better serve than other players currently in the top 10.

Agree.

And plus, I am explicitly stating that his serve is steady for a top ten player. Not strong, not weak. I wonder, how many of these posters actually read the posts they comment on?

Yes, I should know the answer. /Sigh
 
N

NadalAgassi

Guest
The only current top 10 player who clearly has a better serve is Federer and maybe Soderling. Thus the answer is obviously no.

Murray btw does not have a better serve. He has a harder first serve but he serves a low percentage and his second serve sucks.
 

Carsomyr

Legend
The only current top 10 player who clearly has a better serve is Federer and maybe Soderling. Thus the answer is obviously no.

Murray btw does not have a better serve. He has a harder first serve but he serves a low percentage and his second serve sucks.

Djokovic has won the same percentage of second serve points, a higher percentage of first serve points, and has hit 40 more aces in less matches than Nadal.
 
N

NadalAgassi

Guest
I am not talking about just this year but in general. Djokovic last year served like a bad WTA player, worse than Nadal has ever served. He is probably serving better than Nadal this year, but his serve looked pretty bad in Cincinnati so who knows what we will see in the remaining months. Djokovic is playing better than anyone, including even Nadal, from the baseline so far this year, and that has alot to do with how many points he wins on his serve this year.
 

NLBwell

Legend
Guys like Rosewall and Riggs had serves that were weak for top ten players, too. Like Nadal, they were the best players in the world. Nadal's serve is effective enough.
 

Manus Domini

Hall of Fame
Guys like Rosewall and Riggs had serves that were weak for top ten players, too. Like Nadal, they were the best players in the world. Nadal's serve is effective enough.

Rosewall's serve was slower than a lot of women players' (If I read correctly). Nadal' serve ain't that weak...
 
M

monfed

Guest
Nadal's serve is INDEED weak for a top 10 player. But there are two reasons why it hasn't been fully exposed -

1) Left handed advantage

2) The slowing down of surfaces in all grand slams.

If he served right handed, any half-decent returner would've eaten it alive.
 
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