Do you believe that Seles could have won Wimbledon if she was not stabbed in 1993?

[williams planet]

Do you believe that Monica Seles ( who was the #1 and dominant player at that time) could have won Wimbledon if she was not stabbed in April 1993 by a deranged Graf fan during a changeover in Hamburg, Germany?

 

[rommil]

Yes and potentially the greatest women's player ever.

 

[federerhoogenbandfan]

Naw, Graf crushed her in the 92 final, she was never as good on grass as other surfaces, pre-dominance, during dominance, or post-return. Either Graf or Novotna would have taken her down.

 

[wtaplayerz]

Naw, Graf crushed her in the 92 final, she was never as good on grass as other surfaces, pre-dominance, during dominance, or post-return. Either Graf or Novotna would have taken her down.

And Monica Seles CRUSHED Graf in the other surfaces which explains why she was number one and Graf was NOT. Seles' results on grass was getting better and better each year as she reached the finals in 1992 before falling to Graf. She also had MORE success than Graf ever had at the same age ( 19 years old--when she was stabbed).

However, we do know that Steffi Graf NEVER regained the number one ranking through her play and by beating Monica Seles. It was DEFACTO handed to her by Gunther Parche because of Seles' forced absence.

 

[federerhoogenbandfan]

And Seles CRUSHED Graf in the other surfaces that is why she was number one and Graf was NOT. Seles' results on grass was getting better and better each year as she reached the finals in 1992 before falling to Graf. She also had MORE success than Graf at the same age ( 19 years old--when she was stabbed).

However, we do know that Steffi Graf NEVER regained the number one ranking through her play and by beating Monica Seles. It was DEFACTO handed to her by Gunther Parche.

Actually Seles did not "crush" Graf on other surfaces, she won by scores along the lines of 10-8 in the 3rd, 6-2 in the 3rd, 7-6, 6-4. Yes she did win the biggest events on the other surfaces, and won many of their meetings, but your claim that she crushed her on other surfaces is fabrication on your part. The only surface either was crushed on was when Seles played Graf on grass.

You are also incorrect that Seles had more success than Graf on grass at the same age. Graf won Wimbledon at age 19, Seles was humiliated in the final at 19. Her results were better on grass in 92 than any other year since she did not even play the event the event in 1990, so her last Wimbledon was a full 2 years ago before she was even ranked #1, so that is hardly a surprise.

 

[wtaplayerz]

You are also incorrect that Seles had more success than Graf on grass at the same age.

Monica Seles had MORE SUCCESS at 19 years of age than Steffi Graf based on OVERALL results...Not just Wimbledon!!!

 

[rommil]

Uhoh, here we go again. I think it is better not to compare results between the two. Using words like "crush" and "dominate" would only incite unnecessary heated debates.We all know how phenomenal these two are in their own way. The results speak for themselves. Besides this issue is a dead horse getting beaten up over and over again. In response to the original post, yes I believe Seles would eventually win Wimbledon. Even though grass was here worst surface, you have to concede that she was still 19 and with her grit and determination you would think she would get better at it. Unlike most of the men that won the finals in Wimbledon, a lot of the women have won it by playing from the baseline.

 

[Grigollif1]

well , well well.. I see that the silly season is in full fligh now. That's the result of the off season...

 

[backhander]

Yes I think Monica would have won atleast one Wimbeldon title, I mean she got to the final in 92, then we weren't able to see if she could progress further the following years cause she was stabbed. I mean winning 3 grand slams and reaching the final of the other is an awesome feat. She definitely had momentum and the clear dominant player of the field.

As for the Seles / Graf thing, I thought it was an incredible rivalry. Though I personally thought Seles was the better player mentally and groundstrokewise, it was a rivalry cut short. I mean towards the end of 92 and beginning of 93, they were practically trading slam finals and head to heads. Seles won French92 over Graf, Graf won Wimby92 over Seles, then Seles won Aussie93 over Graf. I mean it was really a great rivalry and they played great matches. It just sucks that we never got to see more of it. I think it would have been a rivalry more exciting then Evert/Navratilova, and a much contested rivalry than any that we see today. They truly were greater than the players of today, in my opinion.

 

[williams planet]

Until the recent 5 years there was no such sharp surface differentiation in women's tennis (on the top). Only the last generation has clearly distinguished clay-court specialists or grass-court specialists.
Hence, Seles definitely had a very realistic chance to win Wimby. Also beating Graf on other surfaces would of feed her confidence even more (not that she had a lack of to begin with).

 

[williams planet]

Steffi Graf's First Five Wimbledon Record

1984

R16 - Durie def Graf (3 sets)

**Graf never made it to the quarters on her first Wimbledon**

1985

R16 - Shriver def Graf (3 sets)

***On her second attempt, Graf never made it to the quarters again**

1986

DID NOT PLAY **Graf OPTED to skip Wimbledon**

1987

FINAL - Navratilova def Graf (straight sets)

**On her third attempt, Graf finally made it to the finals but lost to Martina Navratilova***

1988

Graf won her 1st Wimbledon.


Monica Seles First Five Wimbledon record

1989

R16 Graf def Seles (straight sets)

**On her debut at Wimbledon, 15 year old rookie Monica Seles lost to Steffi Graf who was the top ranked and defending champion at that time.

1990

Quarterfinals Garrison def Seles (three sets)

**In only her second attempt, Monica Seles made it through the quarterfinals**


1991

DID NOT PLAY**Seles OPTED to skip Wimbledon**

1992

Graf def Seles(straight sets)

**In only her third attempt, Monica Seles made it through the FINALS beating the the Queen of Wimbledon herself, Martina Navratilova in the semi's before falling to Graf ( partly attributed to the Gruntometer controversy).**

1993

DID NOT PLAY **Monica Seles was stabbed 2 1/2 months after winning the 1993 Australian Open**


It's interesting to note that Monica Seles and Steffi Graf almost had an identical record in their first FIVE attempts playing at Wimbledon. Of course, Seles had a better result on her second attempt since she reached the Quarterfinals.

The only MAJOR difference : Monica Seles was stabbed at 19 years of age in April 1993 which forever robbed her the same opportunity to win Wimbledon when she was playing at the highest level. We all know that Monica Seles was never the same player after she came back in '95.

Its is completely a myth that Steffi Graf never struggled at Wimbledon when she first started. Steffi was not that great on grass during those first few years and was not even considered a grass court player at all...up until she dominated the grass in the late 80's after the decline of an aging Navratilova.

 

[Warriorroger]

No one wants tennisfans to forget what happened to Monica, but you guys are having double standards. Monica is the best in 1993, comes back in 1995, isn't so great according to you guys, never regained topform again. Therefore, she isn't the greatest female tennisplayer. Steffi had the same competition Monica had. She regrouped. Steffi of 1995/6 was better than Steffi from 1993, had a new modern racket, played better.The old Dunlop MAX200G is an old school racket. Steffi had a terrible 1997/8, came back at the end of 1998, beat Davenport, Hingis, Seles (twice), reached the final of RG, wins it, and then reaches the final of Wimbledon. Why wasn't that possible for Monica who was younger and who wasn't injured that much in 1997/8. Monica was mentally fit, you don't reach your first tournament final after being out for 2.5 years and a US Open final twice without being mentally fit. The quote about how the stabbing tragedy got milked is right on the money. You ask us to look at 1993, I looked everything up and Steffi was really close in the rankings and would have overtaken Monica eventually. I do agree that the number of grandslams Steffi would have won in 1993 would be less, but Steffi was catching up. You could also say that Steffi could have won more than 22, because of all the grandslams she didn't play. Monica is a great player, but has never won Wimbledon, has never won the grandslam, has never dominated Steffi (sorry 10-5 isn't in Monica's favour) and therefore you can't say she is better than Steffi. I don't, although you think I do, only look at the total of numbers, I actually think that Steffi had a prettier game, was 200 times more athletic and had more variety in her shots than Monica and that's why I think she is the greatest.

 

[Happyneige]

And Monica Seles CRUSHED Graf in the other surfaces which explains why she was number one and Graf was NOT. Seles' results on grass was getting better and better each year as she reached the finals in 1992 before falling to Graf. She also had MORE success than Graf ever had at the same age ( 19 years old--when she was stabbed).

However, we do know that Steffi Graf NEVER regained the number one ranking through her play and by beating Monica Seles. It was DEFACTO handed to her by Gunther Parche because of Seles' forced absence.

The question of the post is whether Seles would have won Wimbledon had she not been stabbed. I just find it hard to speculate a player's performance on grass based on their results on other surfaces. You can make a case that Seles was a dominant player at the time but her game never suited grass court style. Her serve was not a strong feature and she rarely played at the net. She might be quick but she was not as agile as Graf. Graf would take her out on grass easily. (And she did twice; 6-0, 6-1 in 1989 Wimby and 6-1, 6-2 in 1992 Wimby.)

 

[wtaplayerz]

Who can ever forget the most bizaare shocking moment in tennis history that altered the course of a sport ? A significant career/life altering event that will always play a huge part on Steffi and Monica's history.

http://www.thetennischannel.com/programs/SpecialsDetail.aspx?id=1419

 

[FedererUberAlles]

Stop typing in bold.

 

[wtaplayerz]

No one wants tennisfans to forget what happened to Monica, but you guys are having double standards. Monica is the best in 1993, comes back in 1995, isn't so great according to you guys, never regained topform again. Therefore, she isn't the greatest female tennisplayer. Steffi had the same competition Monica had. She regrouped.

There is essentially no way that Steffi Graf would have been the top women's tennis player of the 1990s without a fan of hers stabbing Monica Seles in the back with a knife.""

What's so heartbreaking about the Seles' tragedy was that she overtook Steffi Graf and was poised to take her game to the next level when that horrible stabbing took away her amazing fighting spirit. Tennis will never know a more grotesque tragedy than Seles'.

There's no denying monica was on her way to making the 90s her very own decade.

 

[roundiesee]

I think Monica would have figured a way of playing on grass if she had not been stabbed. She is such a determined and "stubborn" player that she would have persevered in improving on that surface. Whether she could have beaten an in-form Graf at her peak on grass is of course another question. I think if the draw was good, Seles would have figured out how to play on grass and win Wimbledon if she had not been stabbed.

 

[Happyneige]

I think Monica would have figured a way of playing on grass if she had not been stabbed. She is such a determined and "stubborn" player that she would have persevered in improving on that surface. Whether she could have beaten an in-form Graf at her peak on grass is of course another question. I think if the draw was good, Seles would have figured out how to play on grass and win Wimbledon if she had not been stabbed.

It's funny how the logic applies to Seles and not Graf. To Seles' fans, had she not been stabbed, Seles would have found a way to win on grass. And Graf wouldn't have found a way to beat Seles??? I am an admirer of both players but Seles' fans seem to use the 'stabbing incident' as their trump card whenever Graf's fans try to defend her greatness. The most objective period to compare the two players is after Seles' return. Both had been through physical and mental adversities. (Granted, Seles more so than Graf. But she CHOSE to come back, okay? I can only look at it that she was ready for physical and mental competition of the game.) The results? Graf was 4-1 against Seles during that time. That's all I have to say.

 

[Tundra]

It's funny how the logic applies to Seles and not Graf. To Seles' fans, had she not been stabbed, Seles would have found a way to win on grass. And Graf wouldn't have found a way to beat Seles??? I am an admirer of both players but Seles' fans seem to use the 'stabbing incident' as their trump card whenever Graf's fans try to defend her greatness. The most objective period to compare the two players is after Seles' return. Both had been through physical and mental adversities. (Granted, Seles more so than Graf. But she CHOSE to come back, okay? I can only look at it that she was ready for physical and mental competition of the game.) The results? Graf was 4-1 against Seles during that time. That's all I have to say.

Was Steffi stabbed by a lunatic Monica Seles fan in April 1993 when she was clearly the #1 player and dominating women's tennis? I dont think so...

Before the stabbing, Seles was the greater player...she wasn't losing to Navratilova and Arantxa and Novotna in Grand Slams like Graf was...forget the H2H because Graf was losing to just about anyone. She didn't make a HARDCOURT GS final in 1991-92, and she didn't make the final of the YEC either! While Seles was WINNING them....Seles was winning 7 of the last 8 GS she played...

 

[williams planet]

Was Steffi stabbed by a lunatic Monica Seles fan in April 1993 when she was clearly the #1 player and dominating women's tennis? I dont think so...

Before the stabbing, Seles was the greater player...she wasn't losing to Navratilova and Arantxa and Novotna in Grand Slams like Graf was...forget the H2H because Graf was losing to just about anyone. She didn't make a HARDCOURT GS final in 1991-92, and she didn't make the final of the YEC either! While Seles was WINNING them....Seles was winning 7 of the last 8 GS she played...

true.

Seles came into her own in 1990 when she won her first GS and won the WTA championships.

1990 Seles led 2-0
1991 Graf 2-0
1992 SeleS-Graf tied 1-1
1993 Seles 1-0

So from 1990 to 1993 Seles led 4-3, and led 3-1 in GS final matches before she was stabbed.

 

[Dan007]

she was never good on grass.

 

[wtaplayerz]

she was never good on grass.

Monica Seles was still a teenager and just turned 19 when she was stabbed by a deranged Steffi Graf fan. She was already dominating the rest of the surfaces and her results on grass was getting better and better each year--unless of course you have forgotten that the young Seles was a already a FINALIST ('92) in only her third attempt at Wimbledon.

 

[wtaplayerz]

Was Steffi stabbed by a lunatic Monica Seles fan in April 1993 when she was clearly the #1 player and dominating women's tennis? I dont think so...

Before the stabbing, Seles was the greater player...she wasn't losing to Navratilova and Arantxa and Novotna in Grand Slams like Graf was...forget the H2H because Graf was losing to just about anyone. She didn't make a HARDCOURT GS final in 1991-92, and she didn't make the final of the YEC either! While Seles was WINNING them....Seles was winning 7 of the last 8 GS she played...

Seles won 10 out of the 12 major tournaments played between November 1990 and the stabbing in April 1993.

Yes, the teenage Seles had the head-to-head winning edge over Graf during those years (as Navratilova in her mid 30s did as well).

But on top of Seles having a winning record head to head vs. Graf in the years 1990-1993 when Seles was only 16 to 19 years of age, Seles also managed to win 10 of the 12 biggest events in that span of November 1990 through April 1993 regardless of if it was Graf - or players who had beaten Graf - who advanced far enough for Seles to beat in those finals.

 

[Happyneige]

Was Steffi stabbed by a lunatic Monica Seles fan in April 1993 when she was clearly the #1 player and dominating women's tennis? I dont think so...

This is exactly what I was talking about the trump card. You (and wtaplayerz) just proved my point. Thank you.

 

[wtaplayerz]

Was Steffi stabbed by a lunatic Monica Seles fan in April 1993 when she was clearly the #1 player and dominating women's tennis? I dont think so...

This is exactly what I was talking about the trump card. You (and wtaplayerz) just proved my point. Thank you.

You have proved NOTHING except by being a Graf fanatic fan.

 

[Tundra]

Seles won 10 out of the 12 major tournaments played between November 1990 and the stabbing in April 1993.

Yes, the teenage Seles had the head-to-head winning edge over Graf during those years (as Navratilova in her mid 30s did as well).

But on top of Seles having a winning record head to head vs. Graf in the years 1990-1993 when Seles was only 16 to 19 years of age, Seles also managed to win 10 of the 12 biggest events in that span of November 1990 through April 1993 regardless of if it was Graf - or players who had beaten Graf - who advanced far enough for Seles to beat in those finals.

I agree. Monica ruled women's tennis and was on her way to becoming the greatest of all time.

She has two careers in tennis ( pre-stabbing and post stabbing)...and she did well in both. A great champion no doubt... and she could have won many Wimbledons had the horrifying incident never happened.

 

[Warriorroger]

I agree. Monica ruled women's tennis and was on her way to becoming the greatest of all time.

She has two careers in tennis ( pre-stabbing and post stabbing)...and she did well in both. A great champion no doubt... and she could have won many Wimbledons had the horrifying incident never happened.

Have you guys ever seen her play on grass. She sucked on grass. Sentimal s-h-i-t, saying she would have won wimbledon. She never won it, and never will. Where is she now you guys? Graf still won a GS at a month shy from 30, beating Davenport-Seles-Hingis, with an aging body. Monica can't do that, her body has to take 13 years to get over a minor injury. Selesfanatics make me lose all respect for the tennisplayer Monica. Carillo was right: she sucked the incident dry. Where is she now, great fans, has she ever told you fans where she is now, why she isn't playing, why she didn't play Wimbledon 1990? Mysterious, mysterious.

22 - 9.

 

[Northerly]

With two hands on both sides, Seles was always going to be vulnerable on grass.

A few weeks after she squeeked past Graf 10-8 in the third on clay she was dismantled easily by Graf on grass.

Unless Graf's totally fell apart, Seles would never have beaten her on grass.

How many times did Graf's game totally fall apart?

 

[Tundra]

Have you guys ever seen her play on grass. She sucked on grass. Sentimal s-h-i-t, saying she would have won wimbledon. She never won it, and never will. Where is she now you guys? Graf still won a GS at a month shy from 30, beating Davenport-Seles-Hingis, with an aging body. Monica can't do that, her body has to take 13 years to get over a minor injury. Selesfanatics make me lose all respect for the tennisplayer Monica. Carillo was right: she sucked the incident dry. Where is she now, great fans, has she ever told you fans where she is now, why she isn't playing, why she didn't play Wimbledon 1990? Mysterious, mysterious.

22 - 9.

Yep, Steffi Graf was the BETTER player as long as Monica Seles was stabbed in the back with a knife by one of Graf's fans.

22-9? EVERYBODY knows that 11(half) of Steffi's slams INCLUDING her 377 weeks at #1 have ASTERISKS written all over it.

Warriorroger--your post is a very typical of a GRAFANATIC.

 

[williams planet]

Yep, Steffi Graf was the BETTER player as long as Monica Seles was stabbed in the back with a knife by one of Graf's fans.

22-9? EVERYBODY knows that 11(half) of Steffi's slams INCLUDING her 377 weeks at #1 have ASTERISKS written all over it.

Warriorroger--your post is a very typical of a GRAFANATIC.

Steffi won 11 Slams since the Seles Stabbing.

Take away the ones she had not been able to win with Seles competing before having her career devastated by the knife of one of Graf's fans and you only have 3 since Seles was stabbed. That would leave Steffi with 14.

Monica Seles was never the player after her return that she was before the stabbing ... and anybody who has paid attention to tennis in these last 15 years would know that the only Slam that Graf had a good chance of winning with Seles in the form she was in during those years 1991, 1992 and 1993 before the stabbing was Wimbledon .. so, a good argument could be made that Graf at her best and Seles at her best throughout the 1990s would have brought Graf only a total of 14 Slam -- the 9 Slams Graf won before Seles' dominance began + the 5 Wimbledons Graf won after Seles' dominance began.

 

[wtaplayerz]

With two hands on both sides, Seles was always going to be vulnerable on grass.

A few weeks after she squeeked past Graf 10-8 in the third on clay she was dismantled easily by Graf on grass.

Unless Graf's totally fell apart, Seles would never have beaten her on grass.

How many times did Graf's game totally fall apart?

Seles lost mostly to Graf by knife.

Seles was DOMINATING women's tennis before the stabbing incident took place in Hamburg, Germany at the end of April 1993.

Although the head-to-head record between Seles and Graf will not show just how dominant Seles was in women's tennis in the 30 months leading up to the stabbing ... the fact that Seles won 10 of the 12 biggest tournaments during that time says it all. Seles was beating the players who were beating Graf (or beating the players who beat the players who beat Graf) in these biggest events.

Hard to blame Seles for winning events that Graf could not reach the final round of in order to meet up with Seles.

During the years 1990-1993 both Martina Navratilova in her mid 30s and Monica Seles as a teenager had winning records vs. Steffi Graf.

Steffi Graf turned 21 on June 14, 1990.
Steffi Graf turned 22 on June 14, 1991.
Steffi Graf turned 23 on June 14, 1992.
Steffi Graf turned 24 on June 14, 1993.

Martina Navratilova turned 34 on October 18, 1990; and she turned 36 on October 18, 1992.

Monica Seles did not turn 20 until December 2, 1993 (over 7 months after the stabbing occurred).


1990-1993:
35-36 year old Navratilova 2-1 vs. Graf


September 1991
U.S. Open Semifinal
Hardcourt
35-year-old Martina Navratilova beat Steffi Graf 7-6, 6-7, 6-4

October 1992
Zurich Final
Indoor Carpet
Steffi Graf beat a 36-year-old Martina Navratilova 2-6, 7-5, 7-5

February 1993
Tokyo Semifinal
Indoor Carpet
36-year-old Martina Navratilova beat Steffi Graf 4-6, 6-3, 6-3


-------------------------------------------

1990-1993:
16-to-19-year-old Monica Seles was 4-3 vs. Graf


May 1990
Berlin Final
Clay
16-year-old Monica Seles beat Steffi Graf 6-4, 6-3

June 1990
Roland Garros Final
Clay
16-year-old Monica Seles beat Steffi Graf 7-6, 6-4

March 1991
San Antonio Final
Hardcourt
Steffi Graf beat 17-year-old Monica Seles 6-4, 6-3

May 1991
Hamburg Final
Clay
Steffi Graf beat 17-year-old Monica Seles 7-5, 6-7, 6-3

June 1992
Roland Garros Final
Clay
18-year-old Monica Seles beat Steffi Graf 6-2, 3-6, 10-8

July 1992
Wimbledon Final
Grass
Steffi Graf beat 18-year-old Monica Seles 6-2, 6-1

January 1993
Australian Open Final
Rubber (Rebound Ace)
19-year-old Monica Seles beat Steffi Graf 4-6, 6-3, 6-2

 

[Warriorroger]

Seles lost mostly to Graf by knife.

Seles was DOMINATING women's tennis before the stabbing incident took place in Hamburg, Germany at the end of April 1993.

Although the head-to-head record between Seles and Graf will not show just how dominant Seles was in women's tennis in the 30 months leading up to the stabbing ... the fact that Seles won 10 of the 12 biggest tournaments during that time says it all. Seles was beating the players who were beating Graf (or beating the players who beat the players who beat Graf) in these biggest events.

Hard to blame Seles for winning events that Graf could not reach the final round of in order to meet up with Seles.

During the years 1990-1993 both Martina Navratilova in her mid 30s and Monica Seles as a teenager had winning records vs. Steffi Graf.

Steffi Graf turned 21 on June 14, 1990.
Steffi Graf turned 22 on June 14, 1991.
Steffi Graf turned 23 on June 14, 1992.
Steffi Graf turned 24 on June 14, 1993.

Martina Navratilova turned 34 on October 18, 1990; and she turned 36 on October 18, 1992.

Monica Seles did not turn 20 until December 2, 1993 (over 7 months after the stabbing occurred).


1990-1993:
35-36 year old Navratilova 2-1 vs. Graf


September 1991
U.S. Open Semifinal
Hardcourt
35-year-old Martina Navratilova beat Steffi Graf 7-6, 6-7, 6-4

October 1992
Zurich Final
Indoor Carpet
Steffi Graf beat a 36-year-old Martina Navratilova 2-6, 7-5, 7-5

February 1993
Tokyo Semifinal
Indoor Carpet
36-year-old Martina Navratilova beat Steffi Graf 4-6, 6-3, 6-3


-------------------------------------------

1990-1993:
16-to-19-year-old Monica Seles was 4-3 vs. Graf


May 1990
Berlin Final
Clay
16-year-old Monica Seles beat Steffi Graf 6-4, 6-3

June 1990
Roland Garros Final
Clay
16-year-old Monica Seles beat Steffi Graf 7-6, 6-4

March 1991
San Antonio Final
Hardcourt
Steffi Graf beat 17-year-old Monica Seles 6-4, 6-3

May 1991
Hamburg Final
Clay
Steffi Graf beat 17-year-old Monica Seles 7-5, 6-7, 6-3

June 1992
Roland Garros Final
Clay
18-year-old Monica Seles beat Steffi Graf 6-2, 3-6, 10-8

July 1992
Wimbledon Final
Grass
Steffi Graf beat 18-year-old Monica Seles 6-2, 6-1

January 1993
Australian Open Final
Rubber (Rebound Ace)
19-year-old Monica Seles beat Steffi Graf 4-6, 6-3, 6-2

Seles fans, I hope you take the challenge and answer my questions, 1 by 1.

Question one
How is it possible that Seles stays away for 2.5 years, wins the first tournament she enters, reaches the final of the first grandslam year she enters?

Question two
How come that after losing the final, you guys say that she isn't in the best of shape? (I think you are pretty good when you reach a final after a 2.5 year absence)

Question three
When did Monica dominate Graf?

I have looked it up for you"

1989:3 matches: Graf won all 3 (winner is Steffi Graf) 3 - 0 Graf
1990:2 matches: Seles won all 2 (winner is Monica Seles) 3 - 2 Graf
1991: 2 matches: Graf won all 2 (winner is Steffi Graf) 5 - 2 Graf (Seles peak year by your stats!!!!!)
1992: 2 matches: tie 1 - 1 (no winner) 6 - 3 Graf
1993: 1 match: Monica won match (winner Monica Seles) 6 - 4 Graf
1995: 1 match: Steffi won match (winner Steffi Graf) 7 - 4 Graf
1996: 1 match: Steffi won match (winner Steffi Graf) 8 - 4 Graf
1998: 1 match: Steffi won match (winner Steffi Graf) 9 -4 Graf
1999: 2 matches: tie 1 - 1 (no winner) 10 - 5 Graf

Question 04
Who is older Steffi or Monica?

Question 05
Let us say that Steffi is 5/6 years older. How come she could still be a contender at an older age than Monica, who is such a great player if I beleive you guys?

If the fans can up with answers to my questions instead of the:
stats of matches and the chris evert quote, they wil get my greatest respect.

 

[Tundra]

THE world of sport is a world that is rich in metaphors. A great tragedy is often a goal conceded a few seconds before the final whistle or a dropped catch in the 49th over of a one-day international.

A terrible disaster is often nothing more than a missed putt on the 18th green of the Augusta National or a 13-second pit stop in a Formula One race.

In truth, there is nothing tragic about such tragedies and the tragedy itself is a sort of a metaphor. There is nothing terrible, too, about such disasters.

It is in this world that, on the odd occasion, we come face to face with real tragedies, we struggle to deal with events that are at once terrible and shocking. Death, life threatening injuries, stabbing...

Ah, stabbing. Who can ever forget the back stab that practically brought an end to one of the greatest chapters in the history of women's tennis?

Who can forget April 30, 1993, the day Gunther Parche plunged a meat cleaving knife in Monica Seles's back as she sat during a changeover in the Hamburg WTA tournament?

As tragedies go, the world of sport has seen nothing quite like this before, or after. Not only did it change the course of the history of women's tennis but also it opened our eyes to the sort of dangers that nobody might have foreseen.

Yes, worse things have happened in the sporting arena. People have actually lost their lives while performing. Formula One racing has seen more death that any other sport.

In fact, exactly a year after the Seles stabbing, the greatest driver of all time, Aryton Senna, died following a crash on the Imola circuit in Italy.

Boxing too has had its share of tragedies and several so-called "extreme'' sports have cost practitioners their lives. But the big difference is, when you choose to become a Formula One driver or a boxer or an addict of some sort of extreme sport, you do so with the knowledge that you are getting into a dangerous business.

But you don't expect parents of girls stepping out to play a game of tennis to caution their wards with the words: "Hey, watch your back during changeovers!'' Maybe they do, after April 30, 1993.

That dark day changed the course of the history of the women's game. Seles, playing the most authoritative tennis any woman has ever played, had won eight Grand Slam titles while still in her teens, including the Australian and the French three times in a row and the U.S. title twice in two years.

No woman had dominated Steffi Graf as completely as did Seles whose only weak moments came at Wimbledon where Graf's experience and skills prevailed.

In the event, it appeared that Seles had the world at her feet and would go on to rewrite all the records in the women's game.

Then came the madman with the knife, seeking to put an end to Seles's dominance and allow his idol Graf a second innings as a world beater. And he accomplished just what he wanted and got away with a two year "suspended'' sentence on the grounds of mental imbalance!

The physical wound healed in time. But, for Seles, life had changed once and for all. The mental scars left by that incident never really healed. In an exclusive interview to Tennis magazine's Peter Bodo Seles says she does not want to revisit Hamburg.

Twelve years is a long time and time heals many a wound. But the few years immediately after the stabbing were years of agony for Seles.

There was a time when she considered quitting but finally decided to resume her career.

She came back strongly too, making the U.S. Open final in 1995 and winning her fourth Australian Open in January 1996. But that turned out to be a false dawn. For the great lady never again scaled the heights in her career.

How many Grand Slam titles would Seles have won if Parche had not intervened in her life and career?

She was only 19 when the stabbing happened and even if she had managed to remain at the helm for five or six years after that, until age 25, she might have won at least 20 Grand Slam titles, perhaps a lot more.

On the other hand, there is NO DOUBT at all that Steffi Graf would not have won anywhere near the 22 that she did if the Seles tragedy had not taken place.

 

[williams planet]

Seles fans, I hope you take the challenge and answer my questions, 1 by 1.

Here we go again. it is very sad that you simply cannot discuss Seles without this partisan nonsense. we have gone through this time and time again, and each time you lose this debate, but you just can't help yourself...

Once again, Steffi lost her number one ranking to Monica. Once again, Graf never regained that ranking through her play. Once again, Steffi lost 3 out or four Grand Slam matches to Monica. Once again, Graf won her first three matches to Monica, and then LOST the next four of seven.......

Once again, Graf was simply not good enough to EVER PLAY Seles at the US Open or the Virginia Slims championships pre stabbing....

and Once again, Graf admitted she simply "could not figure out" how to beat Seles after she was swept off the court at the Aussie 93 final......

Enter Gunther Parche and his knife and Graf becomes number one again...

 

[BaselDazzle]

Hey... where's grandslamchamp and tennisballz when you need them?

I found a link that you guys might find interesting:

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/search.php?searchid=585877

 

[wtaplayerz]

Hey... where's grandslamchamp and tennisballz when you need them?

I found a link that you guys might find interesting:

---

And what's the relevance to that? kajonie aka Warriorroger....now the Grafanatic is really getting desperate. How sad and pathetic is that?

 

[williams planet]

Hey... where's grandslamchamp and tennisballz when you need them?

I found a link that you guys might find interesting:

---

And what's the relevance to that? kajonie aka Warriorroger....now the Grafanatic is really getting desperate. How sad and pathetic is that?

Second ranked Steffi Graf went from a 1-8 record in Grand Slams for the better part of the early 90's, as Seles went 7-8, and then, after the stabbing, IMMEDIATELY won four consecutive Grand Slams, eventually six of seven .....it was a total reversal of fortune for #2 Steffi Graf, and everybody knows it.....

Is this is mere coincidence???... that Second ranked Graf went from winning one Grand slam in three years to winning four consecutive in one year happens to be totally unrelated to the stabbing of World Number One Monica Seles????

Graf's career, and her INFLATED "lifetime career stats" that Warriorroger and his ALIASES keep on harping about, were tremendously aided by the stabbing of the #1 Monica Seles.

 

[Tundra]

I think Monica would have figured a way of playing on grass if she had not been stabbed.

I think Seles' background made her very adaptive.

She learned to play tennis in the parking lot of her family's apartment building in Yugoslavia. Her dad tied a string between two cars and they hit balls over it.

As a junior, she played on grass alot and excelled.

 

[Tundra]

She is such a determined and "stubborn" player that she would have persevered in improving on that surface. Whether she could have beaten an in-form Graf at her peak on grass is of course another question. I think if the draw was good, Seles would have figured out how to play on grass and win Wimbledon if she had not been stabbed.

You're right roundiesee.

She won Eastbourne, the historical warm-up grass tournament for Wimbledon.

I absolutely believe Seles could have won Wimbledon. The fact that she beat Navratilova in the semis is a testament to the fact that she could play on grass.

Some Graf fans always write this possibility off because she was such a great baseliner but they forget that one of Monica's most overlooked but outstanding attributes was her movement around the court. Seles not only got to the ball but with her compact swing she was almost always able to put some play on it. She was also the best returner of her era...Seles won matches on her return of serve.

 

[Tundra]

Seles fans, I hope you take the challenge and answer my questions, 1 by 1.

If the fans can up with answers to my questions instead of the:
stats of matches and the chris evert quote, they wil get my greatest respect.

btw, who are YOU that Seles fans will be so thrilled to get YOUR GREATEST respect?

you are one weird guy Warriorroger.

 

[Tundra]

You can make a case that Seles was a dominant player at the time but her game never suited grass court style.

They all say that before they get used to it and start to win. Didn't Navratilova say "the grass is for cows"?

 

[yixiang]

For whatever never happened, we can never come to a conclusion, though I would like to say Monica had 60% chance to win Wimbledon if she hadn't been stabbed.

 

[wtaplayerz]

For whatever never happened, we can never come to a conclusion, though I would like to say Monica had 60% chance to win Wimbledon if she hadn't been stabbed.

Oh really Warrioroger aka yixiang...

It used to be 100% but a jealous fan of second ranked Graf got JEALOUS and decided to stab Monica in the back during a changeover in Germany in 1993 to benefit the second ranked player.

 

[BaselDazzle]

Hey... where's grandslamchamp and tennisballz when you need them?

I found a link that you guys might find interesting:

---

And what's the relevance to that? kajonie aka Warriorroger....now the Grafanatic is really getting desperate. How sad and pathetic is that?

Hahaha, I post one post on here (which is a relatively neutral one, I refuse to touch this issue) and you insinuate that Warriorroger and I are the same person.

I have absolutely nothing to say about either Monica Seles or Steffi Graf and plenty about posters continually rehashing topics. I am just as impatient with 8 separate Sampras/Federer threads, 5 different polls on who your favourite male player is, who is the most/least attractive player in the WTA/ATP....

Well, Miss-my-legs-could-take-me-to-the-moon-because-I'm-that-good-at- jumping-to-ridiculous-conclusions, I actually posted that link for two reasons:

1) I actually did think you might be interested in seeing what other people have had to say on this debate since it's been debated before (which most Seles fans would find interesting to read through);

2) To illustrate why you should use the search function before posting threads of this variety, because it bores everyone (including said Seles fans) when the same discussion is brought up ad nauseum.

That's how it's relevant to the discussion. We're (I take the liberty of speaking for the majority of posters on this forum) tired of it.

 

[Tundra]

Hahaha, I post one post on here (which is a relatively neutral one, I refuse to touch this issue) and you insinuate that Warriorroger and I are the same person.

I have absolutely nothing to say about either Monica Seles or Steffi Graf and plenty about posters continually rehashing topics. I am just as impatient with 8 separate Sampras/Federer threads, 5 different polls on who your favourite male player is, who is the most/least attractive player in the WTA/ATP....

Then why do you keep responding to this thread? You are one transparent Graf fan.

moron.

 

[williams planet]

Then why do you keep responding to this thread? You are one transparent Graf fan.

moron.

True indeed. What the Grafanatics LOVE in this board are topics like this:

Warriorroger
New User


Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 55 And God created Steffi Graf and Roger Federer --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have discussed this on the Steffi Graf admiration thread and the Roger Federer web site. Are there more tennisfans who see similarities between Steffi Graf and Roger Federer. To me it's almost like Roger Federer is a male improved 'model'of the Steffi Graf tennisplayer 'model'.

Similarities:

Strokes:

Forehand
Although both had/have different techniques, the position on court from where they hit is almost identical. Both had/have awesome power and to both the forehand was/is the dominant stroke.

Slice backhand
Although Steffi used the sliced bakchand 98% of the time, Roger uses it a lot as wel.

(this underlines my believe that Steffi would have fared well in this era, cause Roger plays slice against powerplayers as well, slice can drive players crazy)

Offensive backhand:
Steffi hit a very good one early in her career, the shot disappeared and for good reason. The slice set up the big forehand. Roger has an amazing toppspinbackhand, but uses slice more often now.

Serve:
Both don't have the most powerful serve, yet a powerful and a difficult serve. Steffi at the end of her career still could hit very good serves. Roger's serve is awesome.

Footwork:
No one is better than Steffi in that department, but Roger is a very good mover as well, always on time. Both look like they are dancing on the court.

On court presence:
When Queen Steffi walked on court: you knew she was the boss. Roger has a lighter attitude, but because of his brilliance he looks like a King on court.

Mortality as a tennisplayer:
They could/can be beaten, but itwas/is, very , very difficult. Both are pretty point players and hate losing.

Mental:
Steffi has the edge on court, but Roger is much more relaxed on and off court, therebye appears to take a lose better than Steffi.

May posters think that Henin-Hardenne is Roger's female counterpart, but I think that player who comes around every 20 years is gone from Steffi to Roger.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I find it hilarious that these Grafanatics have no shame in comparing a Great talented player like Roger Federer to a one dimentional overrated player like Steffi Graf.

Federer became number one and won Grand Slams without the best player in men's tennis stabbed by one of his lunatic fans.

 

[Tundra]

True indeed. What the Grafanatics LOVE in this board are topics like this:

Warriorroger
New User


Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 55 And God created Steffi Graf and Roger Federer --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have discussed this on the Steffi Graf admiration thread and the Roger Federer web site. Are there more tennisfans who see similarities between Steffi Graf and Roger Federer. To me it's almost like Roger Federer is a male improved 'model'of the Steffi Graf tennisplayer 'model'.

Similarities:

Strokes:

Forehand
Although both had/have different techniques, the position on court from where they hit is almost identical. Both had/have awesome power and to both the forehand was/is the dominant stroke.

Slice backhand
Although Steffi used the sliced bakchand 98% of the time, Roger uses it a lot as wel.

(this underlines my believe that Steffi would have fared well in this era, cause Roger plays slice against powerplayers as well, slice can drive players crazy)

Offensive backhand:
Steffi hit a very good one early in her career, the shot disappeared and for good reason. The slice set up the big forehand. Roger has an amazing toppspinbackhand, but uses slice more often now.

Serve:
Both don't have the most powerful serve, yet a powerful and a difficult serve. Steffi at the end of her career still could hit very good serves. Roger's serve is awesome.

Footwork:
No one is better than Steffi in that department, but Roger is a very good mover as well, always on time. Both look like they are dancing on the court.

On court presence:
When Queen Steffi walked on court: you knew she was the boss. Roger has a lighter attitude, but because of his brilliance he looks like a King on court.

Mortality as a tennisplayer:
They could/can be beaten, but itwas/is, very , very difficult. Both are pretty point players and hate losing.

Mental:
Steffi has the edge on court, but Roger is much more relaxed on and off court, therebye appears to take a lose better than Steffi.

May posters think that Henin-Hardenne is Roger's female counterpart, but I think that player who comes around every 20 years is gone from Steffi to Roger.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I find it hilarious that these Grafanatics have no shame in comparing a Great talented player like Roger Federer to a one dimentional overrated player like Steffi Graf.

Federer became number one and won Grand Slams without the best player in men's tennis stabbed by one of his lunatic fans.

LOL.

 

[wtaplayerz]

Seles fans, I hope you take the challenge and answer my questions, 1 by 1.

Graf's greatest accomplishments was winning all four Slams at least four times, eventually totalling 22 GS titles overall.......

Graf won HALF (11) of those GS titles after the stabbing of world number one Monica Seles, and four in a row, coming of a drought of winning only 1 of 8, immediately after Seles' stabbing.......

Graf's second greatest feat? Weeks at number one......and guess what? Graf reclaimed the number, BY DEFAULT, because of Monica's absence....she did not EARN it through her play......it was defacto handed to her......Seles' points dropped off because of absence.....

 

[Northerly]

Then why do you keep responding to this thread? You are one transparent Graf fan.

moron.

Oh well, the record books say Graf won 7 Wimbledons and Seles won none... go figure!

 

[Warriorroger]

Oh well, the record books say Graf won 7 Wimbledons and Seles won none... go figure!

Right