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Tundra
Guest
Northerly said:
Do you believe that Seles could have won Wimbledon if she was not stabbed in 1993?
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williams planet
Guest
Northerly said:Tundra said:
3. 1980s: Martina Navratilova[/B]
On the gentlemen's side, John McEnroe won three singles championships in this era, as did Boris Becker, who showed up in 1985 to become the youngest player to win Wimbledon, doing it as an unseeded player. But the competition was too fierce (throw in Borg and Connors at the beginning of the 80s, and Edberg, Cash, and Lendl at the end) for any player to truly dominate. In the Ladies tournament, Ms. Navratilova won an incredible nine times in thirteen years. Here's the judgement call: Navratilova's reign is considered superior to Steffi Graf's five titles in six years (1988-1993). Why? Navratilova, who was 8-0 in her first eight Wimbledon Finals, was miles above the rest of the field. Graf won three of her titles (1993, 1995, 1996) almost immediately after the world's number one player — Monica Seles — was stabbed by an obsessive fan of Steffi's.
Yep, Tundra was right. There are indeed asterisks.
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wtaplayerz
Guest
Warriorroger said:Northerly said:Right
Right.
Monica Seles as a teenager was #1 for 1991, 1992 and for the part of 1993 before she was stabbed in the back with a knife by a German man who was a jealous fan of Steffi Graf.
During the 30 months before the stabbing of Seles in the back with a sharp knife by a Graf fan, Seles won 9 of the 11 biggest singles tournaments played in women's tennis from the end of 1990 through the early part of 1993 -- of the 2 events out of those 11 that Seles did not win, she did not enter one of those events and was runnerup in the other.
There is absolutely no doubt that the #1 player of the first half of the 1990s was Monica Seles ... she was the best player in terms of her singles titles won and she was #1 in terms of her ranking during that time. She accomplished these things as a teenager when Steffi Graf, the former #1 at that time, was in her 20s for the most part.
Warriorroger
Hall of Fame
The year 2050
Yeah Grandma, what happened to you was terrible, but why did you pull out Wimbledon 90, you could have won that, and why did you get so out of shape in 1995 and the rest of your career, jazz and jaden mom has won 7 wimbledons.
Yeah Grandma, what happened to you was terrible, but why did you pull out Wimbledon 90, you could have won that, and why did you get so out of shape in 1995 and the rest of your career, jazz and jaden mom has won 7 wimbledons.
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Tundra
Guest
Warriorroger said:
Admit it...your Graf couldn't get to the number one and win 11 more slams without the stabbing.....it is an historical fact......
Warriorroger
Hall of Fame
Tundra said:
The only slams which are hollow are the 1993/4 slams. In 1995, Seles came back strong (winning Montreal and reaching the fina U 95), Graf won the remaining of her slams. Had Seles stayed away from the game, you had a case, but she came back and was ready to play, lost to Graf twice, Graf went on winning in 1996, with Seles there, aging Graf won RG 99 and got to the final of W 99, so where was Seles.
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wtaplayerz
Guest
Warriorroger said:
Seles would have easily surpassed Graf.
Seles was winning 3 Grand Slam singles titles per year in 1991, 1992 and then had won the first Slam of 1993.
Seles had also won the Tour Championships in 1990, 1991 and 1992.
With Seles winning 2 Slams more per year than Graf was winning, it was only a matter of times before the lines crossed --- unless, of course, a fan of Graf's took a knife to Seles' back -- when she was not expecting it.
Warriorroger
Hall of Fame
wtaplayerz said:
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Tundra
Guest
Warriorroger said:
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williams planet
Guest
Northerly said:
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wtaplayerz
Guest
Seles came on to win 11 out of 15 of the major singles titles in 1990, 1991, 1992 and 1993 before the stabbing ...
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wtaplayerz
Guest
Northerly said:
SO WE LOOK AT THE 12 BIGGEST SINGLES TITLES IN WOMEN'S TENNIS DURING THE 30 MONTHS BEFORE THE STABBING:
1990 1991 1992 1993 1994
1990 WTA Championships MONICA SELES
1991 Australian Open MONICA SELES
1991 French Open MONICA SELES
1991 Wimbledon STEFFI GRAF
1991 U.S. Open MONICA SELES
1991 WTA Championships MONICA SELES
1992 Australian Open MONICA SELES
1992 French Open MONICA SELES
1992 Wimbledon STEFFI GRAF
1992 U.S. Open MONICA SELES
1992 WTA Championships MONICA SELES
1993 Australian Open MONICA SELES
Seles was just a teenager when she was stabbed ... however, she was the 3-time defending champion of the Australian Open ... the 3-time defending champion of the French Open ... the 3-time defending champion of the WTA Tour Championships ... and, 2-time defending champion of the U.S. Open.
In fact, no player in women's tennis history has won more than the 10 out of 12 major singles titles that Monica Seles won in those 30 months before being stabbed in April 1993.
Monica Seles was the ONLY player in women's tennis to win 2 of the 5 biggest singles titles in women's tennis in 1990 ... 1991 ... 1992 ... and the ONLY player to win a Grand Slam singles title in 1993 before she was stabbed.
Of course it is on the record books.... Gunther Parche is the ASTERISK on Graf's INFLATED record.
What should also be remembered was that Monica was not only the dominant player at the time of the stabbing but that she was getting better.
Her play at the Oz Open in '93 was some of the best ever seen at the time. Her movement was better than ever, her serve was improving massively and she was even serve-volleying a little.
Bottom line is: had she continued along the path she was on she would have had an excellent chance of winning wimbledon.
It's not Steffi's fault that Monica was stabbed and you know that Steffi would rather it had not happened so they could continue to compete - I find it strange that some Steffi fans are happy to claim that the history books will ignore the facts. (a) They don't and won't and (b) if you are such big fans of Steffi's then try emulating some of her class.
Her play at the Oz Open in '93 was some of the best ever seen at the time. Her movement was better than ever, her serve was improving massively and she was even serve-volleying a little.
Bottom line is: had she continued along the path she was on she would have had an excellent chance of winning wimbledon.
It's not Steffi's fault that Monica was stabbed and you know that Steffi would rather it had not happened so they could continue to compete - I find it strange that some Steffi fans are happy to claim that the history books will ignore the facts. (a) They don't and won't and (b) if you are such big fans of Steffi's then try emulating some of her class.
Wake up... There is no way Seles would have won Wimbledon 1993. She just doesn't have the game for it.
Reality: Seles won 9 slams. Graf 22. Forget about 'What if Seles weren't stabbed'. Both are great in their won rights. But saying that Seles is greater than Graf, it's a laughing joke.
I can simply say 'What if Graf did not retire just the US Open, she might have won the US Open. Don't forget, she had just won the French Open, and was the finalist in Wimbledon. She could carried the momentum to the US Open. She could have added another slam.
The point is, there's no point asking 'What if, this and that' - we'll never know. Reality: Seles won 9 Slams, Graf 22.
For your information, I like the both but I do not ask rhetoric question like 'What would happened if Seles weren't stabbed'. I just accepted the fact that that's life- nothing is fair in this world.
Reality: Seles won 9 slams. Graf 22. Forget about 'What if Seles weren't stabbed'. Both are great in their won rights. But saying that Seles is greater than Graf, it's a laughing joke.
I can simply say 'What if Graf did not retire just the US Open, she might have won the US Open. Don't forget, she had just won the French Open, and was the finalist in Wimbledon. She could carried the momentum to the US Open. She could have added another slam.
The point is, there's no point asking 'What if, this and that' - we'll never know. Reality: Seles won 9 Slams, Graf 22.
For your information, I like the both but I do not ask rhetoric question like 'What would happened if Seles weren't stabbed'. I just accepted the fact that that's life- nothing is fair in this world.
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Tundra
Guest
wtaplayerz said:
And someone needed to open the door back up for Graf ... Gunther Parche did that.
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Tundra
Guest
fererrodf said:
Warriorroger aka ferrerrodf
In the end, everyone will remember one thing......Monica was number one, Graf number two, and the stabbing changed that..
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wtaplayerz
Guest
fererrodf said:
OH ... I thought Seles had beaten Graf in the 1993 Australian Open final and I thought Monica Seles had also won the 1992 U.S. Open AND the 1992 Tour Championships (these happen to be the only 3 major events in women's tennis that were played within the 8 months leading up to the stabbing of Seles).
The Grafanatic must have FORGOTTEN about these results.
For the record --- that was the THIRD CONSECUTIVE Australian Open Seles had won (1991-1992-1993) ...
it was the THIRD CONSECUTIVE WTA Tour Championship Seles had won (1990-1991-1992) ...
and, it was the SECOND CONSECUTIVE U.S. Open Championship Seles had won (1991-1992) ...
to go with a THIRD CONSECUTIVE French Open Championship for Seles (1990-1991-1992).
Enter Gunther Parche....
Scorch said:
In that much in the tournament shere Seles was so good, she beat Graf 4-6 6-3 6-2... hardly a scoreline that suggested "ownership" of Graf.
Even whilst Seles was red hot Graf could go with her all the way.
No-one can change what happened... was Graf supposed to retire or stop trying in sympathy?
History records the facts, not the ifs, buts and what ifs.
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wtaplayerz
Guest
fererrodf said:
What? Then, why was Seles the one WINNING all of these titles until she was stabbed by a Graf fan?
Of course, Seles was better than Graf during these years ... the #1 ranking and the fact that Seles won 9 out of the 11 biggest titles during those 30 months leading up to a Graf fan stabbing Seles in the back with a sharp knife. Of course, Seles was better than Graf.
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Tundra
Guest
fererrodf said:
Yes, Steffi Graf and Tonya Harding were the supposed beneficiaries of physical attacks on athletes in their sports who were higher ranked than they were.
Northerly said:
You can twist it all you like. The fact is that history will see Graf's amazing achievements in context. The fact is that the number 1 player was taken out of the game leaving the number 2 to win the slams.
Steffi did what she had to do, and her record is amazing, but you cannot deny the fact that her biggest rival was taken out of the game hence making her life far easier.
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wtaplayerz
Guest
Scorch said:
well said.
In fact, Graf was named in 2001 by the prestigious Sports Illustrated as the most overrated female tennis player in history. Their contention was that she could have not won anywhere near the 22 Grand Slams and record weeks at #1 had the Seles Stabbing never happened.
Yes, Seles was better than Graf during 91-93 before she was awfully stabbed. No question about that.
The fact and reality remains: Graf has amassed 22 Grands and Seles only 9. Nothing can changed that. Yes, Seles was robbed of those years. I'm not denying that.
The fact is, get over it because nothing can be changed at all. We can't turned back time. The fact remains as such.
I'm not diminishing Seles' career. She has had a good one. She had Graf's number. She was the dominant one (91-93). No one can deny that (not even Graf's fans). Can she win Wimbledon 93? No one knows but on that particular surface, you have to give the edge to Graf.
I'm in no way not a Seles fan. I hope she makes a return and give it a final sprint. I admire her game and what she brought and contribute to the game but let's face it - she has up- to-date only won 9 slams. Yes, she might and could have won more. No one knows. We can only spectulate.
The fact and reality remains: Graf has amassed 22 Grands and Seles only 9. Nothing can changed that. Yes, Seles was robbed of those years. I'm not denying that.
The fact is, get over it because nothing can be changed at all. We can't turned back time. The fact remains as such.
I'm not diminishing Seles' career. She has had a good one. She had Graf's number. She was the dominant one (91-93). No one can deny that (not even Graf's fans). Can she win Wimbledon 93? No one knows but on that particular surface, you have to give the edge to Graf.
I'm in no way not a Seles fan. I hope she makes a return and give it a final sprint. I admire her game and what she brought and contribute to the game but let's face it - she has up- to-date only won 9 slams. Yes, she might and could have won more. No one knows. We can only spectulate.
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Tundra
Guest
fererrodf said:
The fact and reality remains that Graf's legacy is this: a great player in the late 80's, a terrible ambassador to tennis, and a major beneficiary to one the greatest tragedies in sport, the stabbing of the true#1 Monica Seles.
The fact is, get over it because nothing can be changed at all. It's History.
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Tundra
Guest
wtaplayerz said:
She truly was overrated.
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williams planet
Guest
fererrodf said:
END RESULT: pure and simple : Graf's record was INFLATED while Seles' RECORD was DEFLATED by the Horrific Stabbing Tragedy in Hamburg that altered the course of women's tennis history.
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Tundra
Guest
fererrodf said:
However, due to the stabbing being such a unique, one off tragedy that skewed the course of tennis history, Graf fans cant simply say 'Steffi won 22 slams and all 4 slams at least 4 times' without the stabbing coming into the discussion.
Because the simple fact, for any reasonable, NON Graf fan, is that Graf benefitted immensely of Seles forced abscence.
Thats the effect the stabbing will always have on Graf's career. Its not Steffi's fault, but she has to live with that just like Monica has to live with the years at her peak that were stolen from her.
Even if one were to say Seles would never beat Graf at Wimbledon she still had a great chance at winning Wimby if not stabbed in the back.
Consider 1994. Graf lost to Lori McNeil in the 1st round. The semifinalists included old Navratilova, Cowchita Mootinez, Gigi, and Tauziat. Seles would have had her way against ANY of those 4. She certainly would have crushed Conchita in the final. Conchita was her pigeon.
Consider 1994. Graf lost to Lori McNeil in the 1st round. The semifinalists included old Navratilova, Cowchita Mootinez, Gigi, and Tauziat. Seles would have had her way against ANY of those 4. She certainly would have crushed Conchita in the final. Conchita was her pigeon.
federerhoogenbandfan
Banned
scoot said:
I was not going to enter this thread, but there is one thing I would like to say in regard to speculating who somebody would have to beat to win slam titles between 93-96 or 93-95, whichever period.
If Monica had not suffered the tragic stabbing, draws would not neccessarily have been the same as they were. If Monica indeed kept the #1 ranking, even more likely the draws would have been different. If Monica had played Wimbledon 94, and been the #1 seed quite likely, or even if the other event she was the #2 seed behind Graf, how do you know Graf would have even played McNeil in the first round, or would have lost to any particular player before a potential final with Monica; or on the other hand what Monica's exact draw would have been as well, in the event there was somebody possably to upset her(Novotna maybe, or nobody, either way you probably see my point).
I am not speaking as to whether Monica would have won Wimbledon 94 or not, or any particular event, just that I dont see how it can be assumed what draws of any particular slam would have been, since wouldnt all the draws have been re-arranged from what they were, especialy with Monica potentialy being the #1 seed at many/all of them?
You do have a point. We can only assume. But let's give Seles credit too. She was the dominant force 92/93 but the discussion here is about her chances of winning Wimbledon 93. I would say a good chance but you have to favour Graf as the favourite more so than Seles on this surface.
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wtaplayerz
Guest
#1 Monica Seles
1990 WTA TOUR CHAMPION
1991 AUSTRALIAN OPEN CHAMPION
1991 FRENCH OPEN CHAMPION
............................................................. Seles skipped the 1991 Wimbledon.
1991 U.S. OPEN CHAMPION
1991 WTA TOUR CHAMPION
1992 AUSTRALIAN OPEN CHAMPION
1992 FRENCH OPEN CHAMPION
............................................... Seles was runnerup at the 1992 Wimbledon.
1992 U.S. OPEN CHAMPION
1993 AUSTRALIAN OPEN CHAMPION
Seles was EASILY the best player of 1991, 1992 and 1993 until the stabbing took place.
The ONLY way for Graf to have retaken #1 from Seles was career-ending injury of Seles or terminal and career-ending illness or stabbing.
Enter Gunther Parche.
1990 WTA TOUR CHAMPION
1991 AUSTRALIAN OPEN CHAMPION
1991 FRENCH OPEN CHAMPION
............................................................. Seles skipped the 1991 Wimbledon.
1991 U.S. OPEN CHAMPION
1991 WTA TOUR CHAMPION
1992 AUSTRALIAN OPEN CHAMPION
1992 FRENCH OPEN CHAMPION
............................................... Seles was runnerup at the 1992 Wimbledon.
1992 U.S. OPEN CHAMPION
1993 AUSTRALIAN OPEN CHAMPION
Seles was EASILY the best player of 1991, 1992 and 1993 until the stabbing took place.
The ONLY way for Graf to have retaken #1 from Seles was career-ending injury of Seles or terminal and career-ending illness or stabbing.
Enter Gunther Parche.
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Tundra
Guest
wtaplayerz said:
TRUE...At the 93 Australian Open Finals (last GS match Seles played before the stabbing); wasn't that close....Graf even admitted so. she was totally blown away the last two sets, 6-3, 6-2......
Monica Seles was hitting outright winners of Graf's serve, including on match point........
Steffi Graf was utterly stunned at the press conference.....Monica Seles hit more ACES, more forehand winners, more backhand winners, and totally dictated the match.....
In early 1993, Monica was awesome.....she had jumped up a level.....Parche must have seen it to, hence the stabbing......
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williams planet
Guest
The stabbing of Monica Seles would have been similar to a Jimmy Connors fan stabbing Bjorn Borg in the back in 1980 if Borg had won the U.S. Open or the Australian Open IN ADDITION TO the 1980 French and 1980 Wimbledon.
Of course, Connors has the record for 160 consecutive weeks at #1 UNTIL Bjorn Borg took that #1 ranking from him for one (1) week in 1977 .... then, Connors had the #1 ranking for another 84 consecutive weeks (a total of 244 weeks out of 245 with the #1 ranking belonging to Connors).
There is no way that Bjorn Borg ever dominated men's tennis in the manner that Monica Seles dominated women's tennis in that 30 month span from the end of 1990 until the stabbing in April 1993.
However, if a jealous Connors fan had stabbed Borg with the intent of removing him from the sport in 1980, that would have been about as close as we could come to it in men's tennis ...
Same would apply to a fan of Agassi stabbing Sampras when Sampras was clearly the #1 player ...
or a fan or compatriot of McEnroe or Lendl stabbing the other one when the player who was #1 being on the receiving end of the sharp knife ...
Of course, Connors has the record for 160 consecutive weeks at #1 UNTIL Bjorn Borg took that #1 ranking from him for one (1) week in 1977 .... then, Connors had the #1 ranking for another 84 consecutive weeks (a total of 244 weeks out of 245 with the #1 ranking belonging to Connors).
There is no way that Bjorn Borg ever dominated men's tennis in the manner that Monica Seles dominated women's tennis in that 30 month span from the end of 1990 until the stabbing in April 1993.
However, if a jealous Connors fan had stabbed Borg with the intent of removing him from the sport in 1980, that would have been about as close as we could come to it in men's tennis ...
Same would apply to a fan of Agassi stabbing Sampras when Sampras was clearly the #1 player ...
or a fan or compatriot of McEnroe or Lendl stabbing the other one when the player who was #1 being on the receiving end of the sharp knife ...
Joe Pike
Banned
williams planet said:
Yes, that would have almost as low an impact as the Seles stabbing.
We all know today that Borg won only 1 slams post-80.
Seles as well could have won 1 slam more without the stabbing. Maybe ....
Good example, williams planet!
That should silence those Seles nuts one and for all.
Just imagine - some of them even suggest that Seles would have won 3 or 4 more slams without the stabbing!!! LOOOOOOOOOOOL!!!!
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Tundra
Guest
Joe Pike said:
You are like a broken record... repeating the same thing over and over and over and over... Do you have anything else to say? Because repeating the same things over and over again only proves the Seles fans point that you have no stats to back up your claims.
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Tundra
Guest
williams planet said:
excellent post!
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wtaplayerz
Guest
Joe Pike said:
You realise that Graf won 11 more slams post April 1993?
With the stabbing of the #1 player in the world...
Joe Pike
Banned
wtaplayerz said:
McEnroe and Connors won 8 slams post-80. Borg only 1.
If Borg had been stabbed Mac/Jimbo would have won maybe 1 more.
Comparable to the Seles stabbing.
Thank you for this great analogy (Seles stabbing 93 - hypothetical Borg stabbing 80). This should silence those Seles nutsos once and for all.
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williams planet
Guest
Joe Pike said:
Bjorn Borg never got stabbed by a jealous fan of the #2 player. Big Difference.
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wtaplayerz
Guest
Joe Pike said:
Steffi Graf's Post April 1993 Career in a Nutshell...
Gunther Parche
and WEAK Competition once Seles was gone.
OBTW I would not now how to answer this question either if I was S. G
Q:Steffi say 20 years from now when someone looks at the record books and sees that you have won 3/4 slam. If someone mentions that to you would you say thank you or would you say yeah but I did it without the best player being around?
Graf: I dont Know
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wtaplayerz
Guest
Joe Pike said:
Steffi just could not beat Seles at a major event other than Wimbledon during those years.
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