Do you consciously (intentionally) do a high back swing?

#1
On the FH and the BH?

I think most pros perform this fundamental. It can be difficult for us recreational players if you've never been trained.

Shots in rec games tend to be low. Many times players think a high back swing (or a loop) isn't necessary and never developed it.
 
#3
Can you explain what are the pros and cons if there are any of a high backswing vs low backswing? Thanks.
A high backswing by default can accommodate high or low incoming shots. Say, for a shoulder high shot, the racket is already there. For a low shot, you just need to drop the racket head to the same level.

In contrast, a low backswing can only accommodate low incoming shots. For a high bouncing ball, you have to wait for the ball to drop lower. You can't swing at a high ball without feeling disjoint in the swing.
 
#4
In contrast, a low backswing can only accommodate low incoming shots. For a high bouncing ball, you have to wait for the ball to drop lower. You can't swing at a high ball without feeling disjoint in the swing.
Then how do pros with low backswings handle high balls? Lleyton Hewitt [not only did he have a very low backswing on his BH, he was on the shorter side as well], Misha Zverev, Bernard Tomic, the Williamses, etc.

You can still hit a high ball with a low backswing: you have to swing upwards. It reduces the range of options you have vs a high backswing but it's certainly possible as the above examples show. Whether one feels "disjoint" is a matter of technique vs an inherent property of a low backswing, IMO.
 
#5
I use a semi-western grip, and personality wise, love to have my shots clear the net comfortably, like 1+ foot when hit from the baseline. For that I hit with a lot of topspin (for a rec player). I thought I had a high backswing and a decent size of a loop (big size is desirable for power naturally) which explained my power and topspin. How wrong I was when I saw my hitting on the phone.

I kept my racket at the waist level and had a very compact, stunt loop. Amazing that I still could muscle the ball with enough pace and topspin to beat a lot of people. It all made sense though since I compensated alot by being strong (muscling) and hitting very low to high (ie good for topspin).

The people that I play with are worse than me. They keep their racket pretty low and struggle to deal with my (or any) high bouncing shots. No wonder they kept telling me that my topspin shots were uncomfortable for them.

I'm done working on the serve. I'm revising my ground stroke forms. :)
 
#6
Then how do pros with low backswings handle high balls? Lleyton Hewitt [not only did he have a very low backswing on his BH, he was on the shorter side as well], Misha Zverev, Bernard Tomic, the Williamses, etc.

You can still hit a high ball with a low backswing: you have to swing upwards. It reduces the range of options you have vs a high backswing but it's certainly possible as the above examples show. Whether one feels "disjoint" is a matter of technique vs an inherent property of a low backswing, IMO.
LH's backhand's backswing is NOT low at all. He generally raises the racket head to his shoulder level. He bends down for lower shots and stands tall for higher shots but his racket head's level is consistently around/above shoulder.






This is a low back swing and a bad form from a rec player. I'd say it's quite typical. Me included.

Look at the guy in white shot, around 0:35 time. They tend to hit up more and get a loopy ball. Like me!!! :)

 
#8
My default takeback is high and straight vertical. The more time I have on the ball the more elaborate my takeback is, in the extreme case I may start with the racquet head pointed towards the net (eg. Thiem, Kyrgios). But if I'm adjusting my game to take more balls off the bounce and on the rise then I will skip the high takeback and go right into the sideways buttcap position (eg. Murray). It really depends on the ball I'm receiving, I actually adjust my stroke depending on my opponent/hitting partner.
 
#9
should adjust to the situation.. if the opp is always hitting low flat balls, having high take back you can get caught late.

rule of thumb is you want to start slightly higher than the contact point, so the initial part of the swing is a drop.
 

Dragy

Professional
#10
A high backswing by default can accommodate high or low incoming shots. Say, for a shoulder high shot, the racket is already there. For a low shot, you just need to drop the racket head to the same level.

In contrast, a low backswing can only accommodate low incoming shots. For a high bouncing ball, you have to wait for the ball to drop lower. You can't swing at a high ball without feeling disjoint in the swing.
This is generally correct, but I'd put it as follows:
- To efficiently and smoothly speed up the racquet the initial part of the swing should be from high to low, pendulum-like. Some shots use this phase for significant acceleration (e.g. 1HBH), some (ATP-style FH) more to have the things moving and not tighten and to align the arm and racquet with the intended swingpath.
- To ensure that during the high-to-low part of the swing arm and racquet travels down and forward and not backward it's optimal to get the arm (the elbow in focus, not hand and racquet head) as back as possible at the highest point - at least while learning. Further on such a takeback may evolve to be more compact - compare current Nadal to early years. However, it's crucial to have that higher-back to down-and-forward initial go.
- Having arm (elbow) around chest-to-shoulder height at the back-top-point of the backswing allows to go down and get just-under the ball for any contact point from knee to shoulder level. Just guide your U-shape forward swing through the intended levels.
- For slower balls higher takeback allows more room and time for alignment. Low takeback might make one tighten to hold the racquet at backswing position waiting for forward swing if the timing was imperfect. From high the arm can travel slower or faster with minimal effort to adjust.
- For faster shots at lower contact levels, obviously, one adjusts the takeback to be more compact. Personally it feels easier, as generally one would use the incoming pace in such a case and more compact backswing would fit very naturally.

Remarkable, pendulum-like initiation of forward swing is used by whole range of players, from WTA pros like Garcia to Nadal, who currently has a very compact loop in his backswing (I'd call it "around the elbow" loop, while most other players loop "around the shoulder"), but still has his forearm, hand and racquet go down before torso picking up the lead in acceleration.
 
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Dragy

Professional
#11
Also some stronger guys playing with lighter sticks can get away with direct takeback (I mean rec level, but who knows if it's relevant for some pros as well?). But we all know downsides:
- Less stable frames get pushed around by heavy hitters.
- Using smaller muscles and more effort to creat power, rather than big muscles, efficient sequences and racquet mass, makes for more tear and wear, leading to injuries in matchplay, as well as limiting practice time for those taking it more serious.

Technics is king, not just to hit a good ball, but to do it over and over, whole match, whole season, practicing to get better or maintaining ability during tournament.
 

Dragy

Professional
#13
Just no. You cannot time it so perfect every time that it's a continuos loop from split hands. You can pause or slow down as long as this pause takes place high, the extreme example being Goffin.

Add: or I better call it not "Just no" - he has some correct insights, but the "no hitch" thing is very impresise and misleading. It's actually a case where you cannot get how the hell your shadow swing is perfect, but you cannot replicate it with live ball.

Add 2: completely wrong with the "disconnect from body part". Or outdated. Modern forehands include evident pause in torso rotation before contact and arm "release".
 
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#14
On the FH and the BH?

I think most pros perform this fundamental. It can be difficult for us recreational players if you've never been trained.

Shots in rec games tend to be low. Many times players think a high back swing (or a loop) isn't necessary and never developed it.
user92626

I use an extreme eastern grip on my forehand. I keep the elbows up at shoulder height with the racquet pointing towards the net with the face of the racquet pointing at the ground. If I had a semi-western grip, the string bed would point slightly towards the side fence, but elbows still up shoulder height. The position is almost like a basketball player guarding a rebound, elbows up an out to guard the ball, and positioned to pass the ball.

Now for the take back, I don't use a true looping motion. The take back is best described as the letter "D" laying on it's belly. The take back is just the forearm straightening with a slight upper arm moving slightly back. This motion leads to the racquet back, but out in front, not behind my back. The flat leg of the letter "D" makes for a very short quick take back and positions the racquet string bed facing down in the pat the dog position. All I need do from this position is throw the racquet.

The initial throw motion causes wrist lag and using the kinetic chain from the very beginning causes tremendous racquet head speed. It's
almost like the arm becomes like a whip. So yes, on the forehand getting the racquet head higher will help build racquet drop momentum,
but you don't need a loop to accomplish this. The loop (circular motion) uses to much time.

You are right that keeping the racquet head higher, with the head pointing up slightly above head height or pointing forward at shoulder height towards the net, allows for handling high bounces easier.

Aloha
 
#15
user92626

One thing I would like to add to the above. If you practice using a high elbow high racquet head take back and it becomes a true habit.
Once it is habit, you will find you can set up lower because you will recognize at what height the ball will bounce because you will see the approaching ball clear the net. The more clearance say 3 feet to 5 feet above the net tape the higher the ball will bounce. The lower
clearance above the net tape 6 inches to 2 feet the lower the ball will bounce. It just becomes natural if you are focused on the ball height
above the net.

Aloha
 
#17
user92626

One thing I would like to add to the above. If you practice using a high elbow high racquet head take back and it becomes a true habit.
Once it is habit, you will find you can set up lower because you will recognize at what height the ball will bounce because you will see the approaching ball clear the net. The more clearance say 3 feet to 5 feet above the net tape the higher the ball will bounce. The lower
clearance above the net tape 6 inches to 2 feet the lower the ball will bounce. It just becomes natural if you are focused on the ball height
above the net.

Aloha
I want to keep my elbow naturally raised, maybe the upper arm and the body form a 50 degree angle or so. Not 90 degree.

I notice that pro's do more or less one height for their racket take back and their adjustment to the shot's height is done with their knee bending. Not different take back heights. The Nadal clip above is a great example. He was hitting very different bouncing shots but his takebacks for all of them were the same.

Because of my bad habit of having a low take back I notice that it takes me a conscious effort to perform a flatten shot from the baseline. I have the tendency to do topspin all the time!
 
#18
nugget i got from oscar...
i try to track the incoming ball height with my hand... so my overall prep height depends...
i think pros tend to "always" prep high because they are typically receiving alot of ballls with really heavy heavy topspin, that tends to bounce up to shoulder height
You are right that pros tend to always prep high, even for low balls. This is great for consistency and shot variation by them, ie you can choose to do topspin or flatten shots.

I want to get rid of doing different forms depending on the shot height.
I don't think it's necessary for us to track the incoming ball height or amount of topspin, etc.

For me I only need to track the general direction of the incoming ball and its speed.
 

ChaelAZ

Hall of Fame
#19
I don't think a higher or lower takeback is the critical component there, but that whatever takeback a player does, is done early to prep for the shot. So the unit turn and drop play the bigger roll to me. You have Goffin with one of the highest take backs and Ferrer with a very low takeback, and both have played the same competent level.
 
#20
...and Ferrer with a very low takeback, and both have played the same competent level.
Once again, fake news!!! :)



Ferrer's takeback is NOT low. You people should get your eyes checked.

Rackethead is at or above shoulder in the takeback/backswing:







Poster tlm is a good example of a very low takeback. I'm the same but I'm moving away from it. The change already cost me a match today :)

https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/hitting-lower-trajectory-video.619449/





I haven't seen any pro does a low takeback
 

ChaelAZ

Hall of Fame
#21
Your definition of a high backswing is different than most I guess. Goffin is a high take back and big loop. Monfils is too, as well as Delpo. All above the head. Ferrer in match play and fast hitting is below the shoulder and more of that back/forward swing with a very small loop. Prototypical ATP players are about head level. Guess your mielage will vary.
 
#22
I want to keep my elbow naturally raised, maybe the upper arm and the body form a 50 degree angle or so. Not 90 degree.

I notice that pro's do more or less one height for their racket take back and their adjustment to the shot's height is done with their knee bending. Not different take back heights. The Nadal clip above is a great example. He was hitting very different bouncing shots but his takebacks for all of them were the same.

Because of my bad habit of having a low take back I notice that it takes me a conscious effort to perform a flatten shot from the baseline. I have the tendency to do topspin all the time!
user92626

I agree with you. Use the knees, but keep the racquet high. I would say in my case the elbows are not quite parallel with the shoulder height, instead the elbows are slightly below the shoulders, but the forearms angle up which keeps the racquet shoulder to chin height.

Aloha
 
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#23
@ChaelAZ
Strange argument!

Ferrer's takeback ensures the racket head is at his shoulder so he can hit any ball that high. Most balls they play should fall in the range between the hip and the shoulder. His takeback isn't low by any definition, except maybe the arrogant one!

If Ferrer's take back is "very low" by your definition, I guess rec player takeback that never goes above their navel is what? extremely, unplayable low? But recreational level takeback is playable. Whatever, man.

Anyway, my definition, if anyone cares, of a good takeback is one where the racket head is around the player's shoulder level. An insufficient, too low takeback is one that is well below the shoulder. It would be tough to hit shoulder-level or higher balls with it.

Definitions and explanations don't get simpler than this.
 
#24
user92626

I agree with you. Use the knees, but keep the racquet high. I would say in my case the elbows are not quite parallel with the shoulder height, instead the elbows are slightly below the shoulders, but the forums angle up which keeps the racquet shoulder to chin height.

Aloha
Very good observation for the FH mechanic.

I remember you said your takeback and the swing is like the letter D on its back. Question: how do you ensure your takeback is high and level, as opposed to you lowering your elbow as you take your racket back, which is my tendency? Is there a cue for you to use?

Or, is it that by the virtue of keeping the elbow high/away from the body as you do unit turn, the takeback is automatically kept high?
 
#27
Very good observation for the FH mechanic.

I remember you said your takeback and the swing is like the letter D on its back. Question: how do you ensure your takeback is high and level, as opposed to you lowering your elbow as you take your racket back, which is my tendency? Is there a cue for you to use?

Or, is it that by the virtue of keeping the elbow high/away from the body as you do unit turn, the takeback is automatically kept high?

user92626

Yes toyoto, you got it!!! In the uni-turn the forearm which is bent with the racquet head pointing at the net, straightens. This means the
take back is like the straight leg of the letter "D". As the forearm becomes straight the upper arm rotates slightly back and down to gain
racquet drop momentum. This is caused by the bent weighted rear leg straightening (unloading) which causes the racquet to drop. Try this sometime. Hold the racquet back with the string bed pointing down. Weight the rear leg with the rear knee bent. Now quickly straighten the the knee and you will find the arm and racquet will drop down without any effort on your part, if and only if, the racquet arm is relaxed. The forward throwing motion is achieved by the straighten (unloading) of the back leg knee and the back hip snapping around forward towards the net. This uncoiling first causes the wrist to lag and then the arm to accelerate forward from the shoulder through the hand . If the motion is made to travel out away from the body, the arm makes contact with the ball straight with the wrist bent back. So, for lack of a better word, the forward is like the "U" shaped side of the letter "D" after the racquet drop has traveled down one side of the "U". this makes for simple, quite quick flattened loop. No big elongated shoulder circle, which takes too much time.

Now the follow through is aligned with the natural motion of the shoulder. The hand can only travel so far forward before the arm has to move upwards. I find the laid back hand can only get to my belly button before from the shoulder the arm naturally starts moving upwards. At which point ball contact has been made out in front of the front foot and the elbow is again bending and the wrist is going
back to a neutral position (or if you wish straight with the forearm).

Hope I painted a picture for you! Instead of confusing you. However, someone smarter than I, said, "a picture is worth a thousand words". The entire sequence is caused by the body's kinetic chain from the ground up all the way through the follow through.

Aloha
 
#29
Not sure I understand your meaning.

Look at Djokovic's FH. He takes back / back swings the racket high before he drops it. That's why he is #1

I don't think racquet head is the way to measure backswing ... I think it's the hand. I also think a key distinction is what @nvr2old referenced ... you either drop to slot (where your hand starts moving forward), or you go straight to slot without a drop (Radwanska 2hbh).

If you talk about the ATP flip FH, racquet orientation likely enters the fray ... think Sock vs Del Potro. So to keep it simple ... 2hbhs:

Picture A. Zverev and Djokovic's 2hbh backswings. Zverev has a way higher backswing right? But if you go look at hands at backswing, it's a lot closer than we picture in our head. The vertical racquet gives the illusion Zverev's hands must be much higher. The next (much more important imo) comparison is arms/hands at the back of the slot. All pros start to look very similar from the back of the slot to contact.

I think high drop to slot, low drop to slot, straight to slot (Rios 2hbh my favorite example) is all foreplay, preference, timing ... pick what works for you. They are all valid if a pro hits it. If Zverev's vertical racquet was not optional Djokovic would be hitting it. $ happens from back of slot to contact.

Edit: I have started to think "drop to slot" is not always the best description. Most 2hbhs get to slot with from an outside to in loop ... is that a drop? Even Fed's pat the dog drop is a small loop.

Slow motion from 00:05

 
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#30
You are right that pros tend to always prep high, even for low balls. This is great for consistency and shot variation by them, ie you can choose to do topspin or flatten shots.

I want to get rid of doing different forms depending on the shot height.
I don't think it's necessary for us to track the incoming ball height or amount of topspin, etc.

For me I only need to track the general direction of the incoming ball and its speed.
guess what, you're adjusting to varying shot heights no matter what...
question is whether you want to adjust prior to the execution of the stroke,
or whether you're adjust during the execution of the stroke

advantage of always prepping high... more rhs potential (ie. a bigger loop)
disadvantage of always prepping high.... a bigger loop == a longer path to contact (with enough reps, not a big deal)

that said, since i'm not practicing 20h a week, and/or hitting 2000 balls a day... i probably don't have enough reps/or talent (or both) to execute with a bigger loop... so i choose less rhs option, which hopefully makes clean contact easier...
this decision is essentially how "pushers" think... choose the simplest "stroke" to get the ball back, yet still win, given limited amount of practice/training. (on the flip side, folks with big looping ATP strokes,... might have the stroke but don't have the 10000 reps a week to support such a big stroke... then poo poo the pusher for "not playing right" - no, they are just correctly playing within themselves).

my $0.02
 
#31
nugget i got from oscar...
i try to track the incoming ball height with my hand... so my overall prep height depends...
i think pros tend to "always" prep high because they are typically receiving alot of ballls with really heavy heavy topspin, that tends to bounce up to shoulder height
lol ... another example of I think I am doing x, but actually y. Always check your video.

I was about to suggest the following ... might be true with pro FHs, definitely not mine.

"If one defined the loop as the path of the hand/s ... my guess is most of us vary at the bottom more than the top (ros maybe the exception). I think my rally ball prep doesn't vary much at the top, but a lot at the bottom depending on incoming ball, hitting flattish vs ts, etc."

Yeah right ... not even close to what I do. My hand loop varies a lot, both at top and bottom (obviously not consciously). Sometimes a tight (high to low) loop ... sometimes shoulders to below hip. I would really need to watch video playing points ... but looks like the loop gets bigger when going for more pace and more ts. I guess bigger could mean 1) loop height ... or 2) how far back your hand goes. I'm only seeing variations in height ... but don't have side view from baseline.

Maybe that is why I am a rec player. :p
 
#32
guess what, you're adjusting to varying shot heights no matter what...
question is whether you want to adjust prior to the execution of the stroke,
or whether you're adjust during the execution of the stroke

advantage of always prepping high... more rhs potential (ie. a bigger loop)
disadvantage of always prepping high.... a bigger loop == a longer path to contact (with enough reps, not a big deal)

that said, since i'm not practicing 20h a week, and/or hitting 2000 balls a day... i probably don't have enough reps/or talent (or both) to execute with a bigger loop... so i choose less rhs option, which hopefully makes clean contact easier...
this decision is essentially how "pushers" think... choose the simplest "stroke" to get the ball back, yet still win, given limited amount of practice/training. (on the flip side, folks with big looping ATP strokes,... might have the stroke but don't have the 10000 reps a week to support such a big stroke... then poo poo the pusher for "not playing right" - no, they are just correctly playing within themselves).

my $0.02
lol ... I was explaing this in my fh video as you typed. Makes me feel better about what I saw.
 

Dragy

Professional
#33
a longer path to contact (with enough reps, not a big deal)
If you look closely at forehands hit by ATP pros, their forward swing from the top of the backswing begins slowly. I believe the purpose is actually getting as close to contact as reasonably possible before major acceleration. Doing this from high backswing provides (1) some base to accelerate from and (2) less effort to support dropping arm and racquet while adjusting and timing that major acceleration (leg drive - torso rotation). So they get arm high, guide the J-shape drop to the desired height and racquet setup pretty close to the ball, then go for full-power torso rotation.
 
#34
If you look closely at forehands hit by ATP pros, their forward swing from the top of the backswing begins slowly. I believe the purpose is actually getting as close to contact as reasonably possible before major acceleration. Doing this from high backswing provides (1) some base to accelerate from and (2) less effort to support dropping arm and racquet while adjusting and timing that major acceleration (leg drive - torso rotation). So they get arm high, guide the J-shape drop to the desired height and racquet setup pretty close to the ball, then go for full-power torso rotation.
lol, sounds like you're saying they track the height of the ball (adjust their hand height relative to the incoming ball), before pulling the trigger and executing the stroke....
which is exactly the nugget that i got from oscar.... (that i mentioned above).
 

Dragy

Professional
#35
lol, sounds like you're saying they track the height of the ball (adjust their hand height relative to the incoming ball), before pulling the trigger and executing the stroke....
which is exactly the nugget that i got from oscar.... (that i mentioned above).
You know, the instanse it settled in my head I immediately thought of "find the ball", which appeared to be not "touch the ball" but more of "align with the ball and swingpath". The sad thing I could noway come to that conclusion from Oscar's wordings :(
 
#36
If you look closely at forehands hit by ATP pros, their forward swing from the top of the backswing begins slowly. I believe the purpose is actually getting as close to contact as reasonably possible before major acceleration. Doing this from high backswing provides (1) some base to accelerate from and (2) less effort to support dropping arm and racquet while adjusting and timing that major acceleration (leg drive - torso rotation). So they get arm high, guide the J-shape drop to the desired height and racquet setup pretty close to the ball, then go for full-power torso rotation.
imo:

- swing does not start from top
- swing starts from back of slot when that ground up k-chain thing happens
- close to the ball in your example has to be k-chain slot firing
- 99.9% of power comes from k-chain slot firing ... gravity drop/loop a timing mechanism, not a power mechanism (other than obviously better timing leads to better power/rhs). Yes ... gravity drop rhs boost heavily debated here.
- I don't see much out right pause in strokes from up high ... but slow pre-slot loop has timing margins (adjustments) built in

Is that what you meant?
 
#37
You know, the instanse it settled in my head I immediately thought of "find the ball", which appeared to be not "touch the ball" but more of "align with the ball and swingpath". The sad thing I could noway come to that conclusion from Oscar's wordings :(
hehe, English is oscar's 2nd language.
that said, as the story goes, ask 20 people to describe an elephant, and you'll get 20 descriptions, all different, yet all right.. question is, our first instinct (as recievers) to try to understand the other, or is it to gonna fight to prove them wrong (because it's different from our intepretation)

also it took me some time, and experimentation to understand that nugget as well. it was a gamechanger for me.... because i used to "always prep high" like the pros.
 
#38
guess what, you're adjusting to varying shot heights no matter what...
question is whether you want to adjust prior to the execution of the stroke,
or whether you're adjust during the execution of the stroke

advantage of always prepping high... more rhs potential (ie. a bigger loop)
disadvantage of always prepping high.... a bigger loop == a longer path to contact (with enough reps, not a big deal)

that said, since i'm not practicing 20h a week, and/or hitting 2000 balls a day... i probably don't have enough reps/or talent (or both) to execute with a bigger loop... so i choose less rhs option, which hopefully makes clean contact easier...
this decision is essentially how "pushers" think... choose the simplest "stroke" to get the ball back, yet still win, given limited amount of practice/training. (on the flip side, folks with big looping ATP strokes,... might have the stroke but don't have the 10000 reps a week to support such a big stroke... then poo poo the pusher for "not playing right" - no, they are just correctly playing within themselves).

my $0.02
I agree with everything you said. It synchs with my experience. Prepping high is harder for my timing (at least for now) but gives me so much power given a seemly gigantic loop. Amazingly I suddenly increased 8 gram of lead tape on the hoop but the racket still feels light to swing!!!

The dilemma of choosing an easy, whatever, effective stroke vs a technically sound, potential one is definitely there. I will have to work out this dilemma.

Good input.
 
#39
I agree with everything you said. It synchs with my experience. Prepping high is harder for my timing (at least for now) but gives me so much power given a seemly gigantic loop. Amazingly I suddenly increased 8 gram of lead tape on the hoop but the racket still feels light to swing!!!

The dilemma of choosing an easy, whatever, effective stroke vs a technically sound, potential one is definitely there. I will have to work out this dilemma.

Good input.
what worked for me was oscar's tip... "find the ball" prior to firing the trigger, and executing the shot.
what i used to do... setup in a fairly static "high take back"... then execute an overly loopy stroke, especially inconsistent on low sliced balls (but worked well when playing against fellow topspinners that kept the ball high)
 
#40
lol, sounds like you're saying they track the height of the ball (adjust their hand height relative to the incoming ball), before pulling the trigger and executing the stroke....
which is exactly the nugget that i got from oscar.... (that i mentioned above).
I do NOT think pro's (Federer) uses any hand to track the height of the ball.


Look at Federer's clip posted by ByeBye. At :08 Fed receiving an incoming shot that's quite low but both of his hands still keep the racket up high for this particular shot that he's gonna make. His adjustment to the shot's height is titling his body (and of course more bending at the legs). This is clear as daylight.
 
#41
I don't think racquet head is the way to measure backswing ... I think it's the hand.

Different pros do vastly different hand/arm configurations. Federer and Nadal look very different in their back swing loading. I have thought about this. It's no good to use the hand to define this.

But one commonality among most/all pros is they keep the RACKET HEAD high at their shoulder level (or higher). No pro's play with the racket head kept around their waist/hip. This can be easily verified.
 
#42
I do NOT think pro's (Federer) uses any hand to track the height of the ball.


Look at Federer's clip posted by ByeBye. At :08 Fed receiving an incoming shot that's quite low but both of his hands still keep the racket up high for this particular shot that he's gonna make. His adjustment to the shot's height is titling his body (and of course more bending at the legs). This is clear as daylight.
sure pros are much better than me at "knowing" aka. anticipating... where the ball will be... so don't need to do that tracking thing
but look at the bh half volley shot on the baseline at :03... he certainly takes a much smaller loop there, than the prior bh shot...
to me, that adjustment in the size of the loop is the "find the ball"/aka. tracking thing that i'm talking about...

maybe a better way to describe "find the ball" or "track the height of the ball"... is "adjust the start of the loop of your stroke" based on the incoming ball... too wordy to me though.
 
#43
Different pros do vastly different hand/arm configurations. Federer and Nadal look very different in their back swing loading. I have thought about this. It's no good to use the hand to define this.

But one commonality among most/all pros is they keep the RACKET HEAD high at their shoulder level (or higher). No pro's play with the racket head kept around their waist/hip. This can be easily verified.
My disclaimer remains ... all pros look remarkably similar from slot k-chain firing to contact. They do not all look the same getting to the slot. They found the same to be true in pro golf. Even the ugliest golf swings started to look the same on downswing to contact.

So to me, I don't see evidence watching pros that there is "one way" to prep. They are playing for a lot of $ ... if one way was a tiny % better, they would all be doing it. The other thing is what @nytennisaddict pointed out ... the best pro solution hitting 1000s of balls a week isn't likely to be ideal for the weekend warrior.

I came to the conclusion to watch the hands in my 2hbh conversion. I tried different unit turns and take backs based on variations of pro 2hbhs. It became clear that the hands defined a lot more of the stroke than racquet orientation (in backswing before slot ... comment below about swing from slot). Hands told the story:

- how high
- how much drop
- how far from body (Djoker and Simon lots of clearance on hitting side)
- loop path and then swing path

By the time you swing from the slot, the vertical racquet is no longer vertical ... just a preferred drop/loop racquet orientation by some.

Check Zverev at 00:44 and then at 00:51. He could have dropped to same 00:51 pos without the vertical racquet. It's like serve tossing and hitting ... many valid ways.


Racquet head does matter in forward swing. Check Zverev at 00:51. His racquet head goes much lower than hand. From there (slot) to contact you can't measure the steepness of low to high by simply following the hand low to high path. The path is that racquet head at it's lowest point to contact.

Said another way ... spend more time on Zverev 00:51 to contact rather than Zverev 00:44 to 00:51 if you want a great 2hbh. Also ... become 6' 6" with real talent. :cool:
 
#44
Different pros do vastly different hand/arm configurations. Federer and Nadal look very different in their back swing loading. I have thought about this. It's no good to use the hand to define this.

But one commonality among most/all pros is they keep the RACKET HEAD high at their shoulder level (or higher). No pro's play with the racket head kept around their waist/hip. This can be easily verified.
When you are talking about the ATP flip FH ... the racquet orientation is going to be involved in the arm rotation back, and then forward. Racquet vertical or pointing forward facilitates this. If you don't hit a flip FH ... then maybe not a prerequisite.

:cool:




This has been posted here a lot ... but I think very interesting:

 
#45
ByeBye and all,

Could you look at the Federer clip above and tell me what you see...?

-Fed raises up the racket with both hands, then he drops it down and swing forward.
or
-Fed raises up the racket with both hands, then he swings it back a bit more and then drops it down and swing forward.

?

I'm a little unsure if technically the FH needs this part (the bolded).
 
#46
ByeBye and all,

Could you look at the Federer clip above and tell me what you see...?

-Fed raises up the racket with both hands, then he drops it down and swing forward.
or
-Fed raises up the racket with both hands, then he swings it back a bit more and then drops it down and swing forward.

?

I'm a little unsure if technically the FH needs this part (the bolded).
He releases the throat with his left hand before his shoulder turn back is complete. The arm/racquet just continues back as he completes his shoulder turn. The drop/loop is timed with his step forward on the neutral FH, and with the right leg firing sequence on the open one.
 
#47
ByeBye and all,

Could you look at the Federer clip above and tell me what you see...?

-Fed raises up the racket with both hands, then he drops it down and swing forward.
or
-Fed raises up the racket with both hands, then he swings it back a bit more and then drops it down and swing forward.

?

I'm a little unsure if technically the FH needs this part (the bolded).
please discuss my question about the baseline bh half volley shot, compared to the preceeding full bh shot... same type of discussion IMO
 
#48
please discuss my question about the baseline bh half volley shot, compared to the preceeding full bh shot... same type of discussion IMO
I see what you mean about different loop sizes that Fed does for his first 2 bh shots. I'm not confused about this at all. If a ball lands too close to him, naturally he would have to do a smaller loop to catch up.

But did you notice that his takebacks for both shots are extremely similar? head-high racket head back swings?

Pros are really disciplined with their back swings, no?
 
#49
I see what you mean about different loop sizes that Fed does for his first 2 bh shots. I'm not confused about this at all. If a ball lands too close to him, naturally he would have to do a smaller loop to catch up.

But did you notice that his takebacks for both shots are extremely similar? head-high racket head back swings?

Pros are really disciplined with their back swings, no?
to me "naturally would have a smaller loop" is the same as tracking the ball height...
 

Dragy

Professional
#50
imo:

- swing does not start from top
- swing starts from back of slot when that ground up k-chain thing happens
- close to the ball in your example has to be k-chain slot firing
- 99.9% of power comes from k-chain slot firing ... gravity drop/loop a timing mechanism, not a power mechanism (other than obviously better timing leads to better power/rhs). Yes ... gravity drop rhs boost heavily debated here.
- I don't see much out right pause in strokes from up high ... but slow pre-slot loop has timing margins (adjustments) built in

Is that what you meant?
What you call "slot"? Does max racquet lag on FH happen at slot or after slot?

No, that's not what I mean. The swing starts J-shaped from high and back hand position. Hand gets as low as intended for the desired swingpath and closer to contact. Watch the video below and check how the hand is actually accelerating. And notice it's moving forward before frame 12, though moderately slow. Torso already rotating, racquet handle came forward, but major acceleration not started until that point (check the speed graph):
Just pause at 0:34. Major acceleration is about to start, though hand has already followed the J-swing from the top of the backswing, and is perfectly aligned now for the intended swing. Moving, not tight, with some velocity as a base for smooth acceleration.
Now pause at 0:43, frames 16 and 17. Arm acceleration is topping, marked by maximum racquet lag.
sure pros are much better than me at "knowing" aka. anticipating... where the ball will be... so don't need to do that tracking thing
but look at the bh half volley shot on the baseline at :03... he certainly takes a much smaller loop there, than the prior bh shot...
to me, that adjustment in the size of the loop is the "find the ball"/aka. tracking thing that i'm talking about...

maybe a better way to describe "find the ball" or "track the height of the ball"... is "adjust the start of the loop of your stroke" based on the incoming ball... too wordy to me though.
Think and toy a bit with finding the ball from early, moderately high, more or less similar takeback. Watch Wawrinka (very delicate aligning and bursty firing) and Khachanov (very pronounced high and back start) for inspiration.

Also, I think it's very natural to shorten takeback for faster balls, including limiting torso turn, and it's not a problem to get low on slower low balls even from high takeback. So it's not a strict rule that you take the racquet back high, but it's optimal to play any-including-high ball and to have room for timing on slower balls, including deep sitters.
 
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