Do you do split step?

ptuanminh

Hall of Fame
What? I was serious with my questions to you. :)

Comon, do better debating.



Anyway, are you learning SS now so that one day you can debut your amazing tennis altogether?

I'm hoping to pick up skills one at a time and in any degree. Alot of time I pick up one thing but drop another. SS is a wonderful skill to learn but sometimes the toolbox is full! haha
How can you learn to SS if you dont know what it is? I mean, it was right in front of you in that video, and you can't even tell. :) Maybe thats why you cant learn to SS in 10 years.
 

Curious

Legend
How can you learn to SS if you dont know what it is? I mean, it was right in front of you in that video, and you can't even tell. :) Maybe thats why you cant learn to SS in 10 years.
I suspect he knows what it is and tried many times, wasn’t happy because he couldn’t do it, then got really pissed off, smashed a few rackets before going to his keyboard to find out what other folks are doing! :p
The real sad thing is though he couldn’t do it because he thinks it’s a hugely advanced skill that only a handful of people can achieve. In fact the only thing he needed to do is just persevere until it clicks, don’t give up. I guess as a favour for him I might have to shoot a video showing how I can do it on every ball as a 53 year old who started tennis at the age of 47 with lower than average talent but higher than average tenacity. Then he will think if this guy can do it I can do it even better:D
 
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Chadalina

Guest
Chad, with not moving to the left after the shot and with that hop, you're dead in the water if the ball isn't played 2 steps from you.
Half court doubles, i dont like to run in practice, was pretty centered. I dont really shuffle when hitting, only playing

I have 1h bh, so i get an extra step :) 3 steps from center isnt too bad.

 

Born_to_slice

Hall of Fame
Half court doubles, i dont like to run in practice, was pretty centered. I dont really shuffle when hitting, only playing

I have 1h bh, so i get an extra step :) 3 steps from center isnt too bad.

Very nice relaxed looking bh. (y)

What I wanted to say is that if one is standing, it's very hard to time hop + SS properly and have a good balance to run down shots. It's kind of an abrupt movement, while if your either bouncing or side stepping, SS becomes natural and perfectly timed.
 
Let's go to a real world example, a typical usta 4.0 match easily found on youtube.

Do you see a lot of SS? Do these guys look "out of shape? Asthmatic?" to you? Or, "lazy or play listlessly" ?

Sometimes it's good to get off TT and see the real world. It's easy to talk, type tennis as opposed to playing and espouse all sorts of hypothesis, guessing. Eg. easiest in the world, lower level people are lazy, and all that bs.




Um, I saw both guys doing a good job of nicely staying on their TOES (as opposed to HEELS if you were NOT split stepping) and hopping lightly to get into a good position, all this in the first minute. Don't know if that footwork left for a walk in the rest of the video.
 
That's practically the same thing. I already stated that many MANY (4.0s) ppl don't do it, won't do it and they still be able to play their level.

They don't or won't do it because it's not worth it for them.
Isn't the same thing at all. A lot of people would be content with a waiter's tray serve, doesn't mean it's a waste of time to learn a more fluid serve motion. I played three 19 point tiebreaks yesterday, lost all, but made just one double fault in all three put together. I couldn't have done that with a WT serve, not with hard hit returns breathing fire down my neck.
 
When I'm playing like crap (ie crapper than usual), it's usually due to poor footwork. Get your feet right and things usually go okay. Slow with your feet and you're in for a bad day.

First step to good footwork is a simple split step.

People asked experienced players if we think it's important and we unanimously said yes. Why not actually do it for a few months before telling us we are wrong?

Anyway, I'm off to play tennis with my dodgy knees and hips, sore back and bad eyesight. I'll still split step, because I'm not good enough to be late (er) on everything and still make a decent shot.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk
Not the best angle to get video from, admittedly, but it's a good example of the importance of footwork. Look at the chap in the black T go from corner to corner retrieving volleys until the other one has to produce a beautiful drop volley to kill it. And look also at the strokes of the black T, grossly underdeveloped (but deceptively consistent, I can say that from first hand experience of getting a pasting from him) compared to his movement which looks good even on video and real time had the rest of us recs gathered around clapping excitedly. By the way, black T won that 'match'.


Black T reached the finals in a 16 man field with say a couple or so mediocre players like moi and some really strong players (both athletic and technically capable). He did lose in the finals, but to a much younger player who whips up massive topspin on his forehands and gets a lot of bounce on his serves too. That is, movement is far more likely to help you advance so it's weird to hear people say that is less worth the effort developing than, um, don't know what exactly.
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
hehe had you learned how to do proper SS, you could be 4.5 now. Still blaming talent and stuff????
This is exactly the reason i think talent is overrated :)
Well, you learn proper SS and become 4.5 and let me know.

Is that not your argument, your plan? :) SS is easy, 4.5 is doable for you.
(Man, you sooo fit in here with your thinking... everyone can serve 100 mph, 4.5 is just achievable in matter of time. LOL)


I'm ok with 4.0 with whatever stuff I already have.
 

ptuanminh

Hall of Fame
Well, you learn proper SS and become 4.5 and let me know.

Is that not your argument, your plan? :) SS is easy, 4.5 is doable for you.
(Man, you sooo fit in here with your thinking... everyone can serve 100 mph, 4.5 is just achievable in matter of time. LOL)


I'm ok with 4.0 with whatever stuff I already have.
Such great logical thinking and debate skill from you though. I have to admit.
Claiming SS is not necessary for 4.0 and lower rec players, yet not knowing what SS is , even when its right under your nose.
Can't beat that debate skill :)
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
Such great logical thinking and debate skill from you though. I have to admit.
Claiming SS is not necessary for 4.0 and lower rec players, yet not knowing what SS is , even when its right under your nose.
Can't beat that debate skill :)
Of course it's completely logical.

I remember you said you were a teacher right? HS, college level, what? Do you need to know Harvard-level teaching skill in order to teach your lower level HS, or college? NO! Duh! :)
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
@ptuanminh , @Curious and all,

Isn't the evolution or development of our debate interesting? I guess I can't convey to you how challenging SS is, given its rarity, mediocrity found in 4.0, and you guys can't convince me otherwise either.

So, THE BOTTOM LINE here is, YOU GUYS actually try to learn and do it, and prove me wrong. It's putting money where your mouth is. Real world proof, eh? :)
 

Curious

Legend
@ptuanminh , @Curious and all,

Isn't the evolution or development of our debate interesting? I guess I can't convey to you how challenging SS is, given its rarity, mediocrity found in 4.0, and you guys can't convince me otherwise either.

So, THE BOTTOM LINE here is, YOU GUYS actually try to learn and do it, and prove me wrong. It's putting money where your mouth is. Real world proof, eh? :)
Mate, I have a suggestion: have a buddy of yours and just practice for a week. Play points starting with hand fed balls but don’t keep track of score. Just do this and make sure that you split step on every ball. Don’t worry about how good the timing is. Focus on only two things, start the hop when your opponent starts his forward swing and every time say “S” audible at least to yourself. And please report back.
 

ptuanminh

Hall of Fame
@ptuanminh , @Curious and all,

Isn't the evolution or development of our debate interesting? I guess I can't convey to you how challenging SS is, given its rarity, mediocrity found in 4.0, and you guys can't convince me otherwise either.

So, THE BOTTOM LINE here is, YOU GUYS actually try to learn and do it, and prove me wrong. It's putting money where your mouth is. Real world proof, eh? :)
Here's a video of me hitting around 5 months ago. Maybe you tell me if i did any SS in there.
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
:-D :-D :-D :-D :-D , yeah rite. I told you. its not that hard. I was self taught and everything.
:laughing::giggle::-D So, no?
Once again, you unwitting prove my point which is it's damn hard to do it where it counts. :-D

Didn't you laugh when people hit a couple nice FH stroke and claim they are high level? Ripping hard shots against a coach's feed or ball machine and believe they're there? Slow swing a few serves in the living room and think they got a great serve (*cough* Curious *cough*) You're just another variation of that, buddy. LOL
 

ptuanminh

Hall of Fame
:laughing::giggle::-D So, no?
Once again, you unwitting prove my point which is it's damn hard to do it where it counts. :-D

Didn't you laugh when people hit a couple nice FH stroke and claim they are high level? Ripping hard shots against a coach's feed or ball machine and believe they're there? Slow swing a few serves in the living room and think they got a great serve (*cough* Curious *cough*) You're just another variation of that, buddy. LOL
oh boy, it was a game of 21 (if you don't know what it is, just ask, i will explain). its not a coach feeding ball. we were playing points.
anyway, USTA season is over so i am not making videos. even if i do, you probably ask me to show proof that my opponent is 4.0. so demanding....
 

Curious

Legend
:laughing::giggle::-D So, no?
Once again, you unwitting prove my point which is it's damn hard to do it where it counts. :-D

Didn't you laugh when people hit a couple nice FH stroke and claim they are high level? Ripping hard shots against a coach's feed or ball machine and believe they're there? Slow swing a few serves in the living room and think they got a great serve (*cough* Curious *cough*) You're just another variation of that, buddy. LOL
Ok I give up. You’re a very resistant case requiring specialist treatment. I will have to refer you to Jolly and step down.
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
oh boy, it was a game of 21 (if you don't know what it is, just ask, i will explain). its not a coach feeding ball. we were playing points.
anyway, USTA season is over so i am not making videos. even if i do, you probably ask me to show proof that my opponent is 4.0. so demanding....
No, I won't. You don't know me, you're just guessing.

I am very reasonable and logical. If you say you're competing well in 4.0 moving like that, say it. Better yet, show it.

Everything else I said about people, like they do a few swings outside a match and believe they're there, XYZ level, it's littered around here.
 

ptuanminh

Hall of Fame
No, I won't. You don't know me, you're just guessing.

I am very reasonable and logical. If you say you're competing well in 4.0 moving like that, say it. Better yet, show it.

Everything else I said about people, like they do a few swings outside a match and believe they're there, XYZ level, it's littered around here.
I have done my part. I showed you i do proper SS. How about you back up your claim of being 4.0, not doing SS and still do fine?
I doubt if there's anyone out there , not doing SS and can play a decent game at 4.0. a few games will be fine, no need for a whole match.
 
Then why didn't those people already learn a more fluid serve motion if it's not a waste of their time?
Because they don't know better and have convinced themselves they are smart to not do so when quite likely they are just lazy. I mean, I am not talking about players starting out with tennis late in life, don't push your body to where it cannot go but equally there are twenty or thirty somethings too who approach tennis with a negative or should I say anti growth mindset.
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
I have done my part. I showed you i do proper SS. How about you back up your claim of being 4.0, not doing SS and still do fine?
I doubt if there's anyone out there , not doing SS and can play a decent game at 4.0. a few games will be fine, no need for a whole match.
You haven't done craps. How are u different from those claiming to have a great serve or 4.5 level and never complete in a real match?
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
Because they don't know better and have convinced themselves they are smart to not do so when quite likely they are just lazy. I mean, I am not talking about players starting out with tennis late in life, don't push your body to where it cannot go but equally there are twenty or thirty somethings too who approach tennis with a negative or should I say anti growth mindset.
Is that also what 5.0 players said to YOU?

Is it ok?
 

mcs1970

Hall of Fame
@user92626 Just have active feet like the video you showed . You should be fine. Maybe as you keep doing it you can one day make it more efficient by trying to time your hop with your opponent hitting. Don’t fret it. If you just have active feet you will be fine.
 
@user92626 Just have active feet like the video you showed . You should be fine. Maybe as you keep doing it you can one day make it more efficient by trying to time your hop with your opponent hitting. Don’t fret it. If you just have active feet you will be fine.
If someone has a hard time with the split step, they'll have an even harder time with active feet, IMO.

For one thing, having active feet [ie bouncing around in between your contact and your opponent's contact] is tiring; it takes way more energy than split stepping.

I recognize its benefit, though, so I try to do it; I don't worry about whether anyone else at my level is doing it and that doesn't determine whether I should do it.
 
Is that also what 5.0 players said to YOU?

Is it ok?
I don't know why you're desperately changing yardsticks now. Never said anything about 5.0s. IMO deciding what you want to learn in tennis based on some NTRP target is a defeatist idea to begin with. Look at the video I posted above. Can you get that kind of pace and bounce on serves with bad technique? You don't just tap the ball to hit a forehand, right? So why would you think a fluid motion is somehow bad when it comes to the serve?
 

mcs1970

Hall of Fame
If someone has a hard time with the split step, they'll have an even harder time with active feet, IMO.

For one thing, having active feet [ie bouncing around in between your contact and your opponent's contact] is tiring; it takes way more energy than split stepping.

I recognize its benefit, though, so I try to do it; I don't worry about whether anyone else at my level is doing it and that doesn't determine whether I should do it.
Disagree with you. I have active feet. Starting tennis late in life I tried to understand split step as defined in many of the posts here and on videos. I did it so I could be a bit more efficient. It just ended up making my game worse. I play a guy who is a solid rec player. I lose to him, but it’s not because I have any issues getting to most balls.
 
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Chadalina

Guest
OK, you're halfway there with the premise.

You still need to show you compete in 4.0 matches with that SS stuff.
His footwork is very good imo. Look at his calf's.

That high bh he is hitting isnt easy, I like the compact swing.

Alot of 4.0 dont hit top that high, i think he would do better vs lower balls (below shoulder). Not say he did bad in anyway though.

The 1h slice up the line (a 2h being able to break off the 2nd hand) looked good.

I dont think he would have problems winning at 4.0 unless he has a really bad serve
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
I don't know why you're desperately changing yardsticks now. Never said anything about 5.0s. IMO deciding what you want to learn in tennis based on some NTRP target is a defeatist idea to begin with. Look at the video I posted above. Can you get that kind of pace and bounce on serves with bad technique? You don't just tap the ball to hit a forehand, right? So why would you think a fluid motion is somehow bad when it comes to the serve?
What desperately changing yardsticks?


Well, basically you charged lower level players as "lazy" "...there are twenty or thirty somethings too who approach tennis with a negative or should I say anti growth mindset. "

So I was wondering how you think if players higher level than you thought that about you (lazy, negative and anti growth) cuz you can't get to their level? Would that be true about you?
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
@Chadalina
You don't get it. My meanings for these guys.

It's not so much about these guys, ptuamning and curious. They can do and claim whatever they want which most of time are ridiculous and illogical.

What matters is I do see a lot of 4.0s that don't do the kind of SS that I refer to, and I have shown a couple of example. Mediocre and inconsistent.

I have a different standard than these guys. It's higher. Take for instance, ptuamminh said the guys in the clip SS "everytime" (his word). Well, it's either he's blind or pretty low standard, mediocre with the form, or illogical, because I have pointed out instances where the guys didn't do SS. So that's not "everytime" right?

Well, debate gonna drag on if I continue to debate with illogical and poor understanding people who don't know what SS is, (they think SS is "just to keep active feet, that's all" (quoted).) Sad!
 
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Chadalina

Guest
Caught in quotes, here is what i wrote.

Footwork is like a car, first you get one that can get you from point a to b. Then you get a fancy one. But its fundamental is the same.

Better footwork isnt about anything except putting you in the best possible position for the next shot
 
What desperately changing yardsticks?


Well, basically you charged lower level players as "lazy" "...there are twenty or thirty somethings too who approach tennis with a negative or should I say anti growth mindset. "

So I was wondering how you think if players higher level than you thought that about you (lazy, negative and anti growth) cuz you can't get to their level? Would that be true about you?
How am I supposed to know what they think of me? Do I have a CCTV planted in their brain or something? In my experience, most high level players have only encouraged me to keep at it and if they believe something else in private, I wouldn't know about it.
 
@Chadalina
You don't get it. My meanings for these guys.

It's not so much about these guys, ptuamning and curious. They can do and claim whatever they want which most of time are ridiculous and illogical.

What matters is I do see a lot of 4.0s that don't do the kind of SS that I refer to, and I have shown a couple of example. Mediocre and inconsistent.

I have a different standard than these guys. It's higher. Take for instance, ptuamminh said the guys in the clip SS "everytime" (his word). Well, it's either he's blind or pretty low standard, mediocre with the form, or illogical, because I have pointed out instances where the guys didn't do SS. So that's not "everytime" right?

Well, debate gonna drag on if I continue to debate with illogical and poor understanding people who don't know what SS is, (they think SS is "just to keep active feet, that's all" (quoted).) Sad!
You posted one video of 4.0s playing asking people to point to split steps in it and when we said they are using split steps, you now resort to calling us illogical or whatever else suits your agenda. Why don't you just admit you don't know what a split step is and perhaps may be already using split steps yourself?
 

ptuanminh

Hall of Fame
@Chadalina

What matters is I do see a lot of 4.0s that don't do the kind of SS that I refer to, and I have shown a couple of example. Mediocre and inconsistent.

I have a different standard than these guys. It's higher. Take for instance, ptuamminh said the guys in the clip SS "everytime" (his word). Well, it's either he's blind or pretty low standard, mediocre with the form, or illogical, because I have pointed out instances where the guys didn't do SS. So that's not "everytime" right?

Well, debate gonna drag on if I continue to debate with illogical and poor understanding people who don't know what SS is, (they think SS is "just to keep active feet, that's all" (quoted).) Sad!
Let me show you how full of cr*p you are.
You might be right about a lot of 4.0s dont do SS. But in the video you showed us, many people pointed out that those guys did SS very well (maybe not to your standard lmao).
I don't know whats your definition of split step. I only watched a few points, but these 2 guys SS in every point i watched.
This is what i said. Quote it right, "his word". Stop making a fool out of yourself.
I don't know what kind of high standard you pursue. But i remember you said you practice your SS (or something else) in an older post for 1 session and it made you feel better and improved already. Is that really high standard?
 

ptuanminh

Hall of Fame
His footwork is very good imo. Look at his calf's.

That high bh he is hitting isnt easy, I like the compact swing.

Alot of 4.0 dont hit top that high, i think he would do better vs lower balls (below shoulder). Not say he did bad in anyway though.

The 1h slice up the line (a 2h being able to break off the 2nd hand) looked good.

I dont think he would have problems winning at 4.0 unless he has a really bad serve
Thank you for complimenting on my calf :cool: . It was not hard work or anything, just born with it.
I have a decent record at 4.0, 8W-1L.
 

mcs1970

Hall of Fame
My take. Split step is the most efficient. If you can’t get the timing correct (I struggled with this) at least have active feet or stand on your toes.

@user92626 Arguing whether someone actually did a split step or not is a waste of time given that all of us agree that being slightly off the ground at the moment of impact gives you the best chance to get to any ball.

Now whether that is needed or not needed for lower level rec play is IMO irrelevant. For lower level rec play you can serve dink serves and win too. However folks who are looking to learn and improve don’t do that.
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
My take. Split step is the most efficient. If you can’t get the timing correct (I struggled with this) at least have active feet or stand on your toes.

@user92626 Arguing whether someone actually did a split step or not is a waste of time given that all of us agree that being slightly off the ground at the moment of impact gives you the best chance to get to any ball.

Now whether that is needed or not needed for lower level rec play is IMO irrelevant. For lower level rec play you can serve dink serves and win too. However folks who are looking to learn and improve don’t do that.
At this point in time I more than agree with your takes (the bolded). Hehe.

It started out as a simple observation but been dragged out for days which I don't like --- sound stupid to argue for days over a simple thing.
 
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user92626

G.O.A.T.
@ptuanminh @Dolgopolov85

It's all good. This is a good reminder for me to remember where most people's intelligence is, where their level stands. I know better to argue with you guys. LOL.

Go ahead and keep believing "The whole point of SS is to keep your feet active to be ready for the incoming shot. And i think the guy does that well. " Ptuanminh

No wonder your argument is ridiculous. "Knowledge" is rotten from the root. Haha..
 

ptuanminh

Hall of Fame
@ptuanminh @Dolgopolov85

It's all good. This is a good reminder for me to remember where most people's intelligence is, where their level stands. I know better to argue with you guys. LOL.

Go ahead and keep believing "The whole point of SS is to keep your feet active to be ready for the incoming shot. And i think the guy does that well. " Ptuanminh

No wonder your argument is ridiculous. "Knowledge" is rotten from the root. Haha..
And you can go ahead and keep believing that, closing your eyes to listen to your opponent's breath when they make contact with the ball is a good idea. :)
Its also a good reminder to me why some "highly intelligent" people play 10 20+ years and still get nowhere with the basics :-D
 

navigator

Hall of Fame
I wonder what coaches and higher level players think about how important it is for players below 4.0 to learn and do split stepping?
@J011yroger @SystemicAnomaly @mad dog1 @BounceHitBounceHit @navigator MaxTennis @travlerajm and the others that I forgot
Personally, I don't really know. I *think* it's important because movement, generally, is so important. Maybe with better footwork that 4.0 would be a 4.5. But, again, I could be wrong - I don't really know. I think it's very difficult - but not impossible - to teach footwork. There's a guy in my neighborhood who plays tennis a couple of times a year, has no tennis training, and split steps like he's been doing it his whole life. Then there are other folks who have been playing tennis forever and they don't/can't do it at all. So, I just don't know.
 

Curious

Legend
Personally, I don't really know. I *think* it's important because movement, generally, is so important. Maybe with better footwork that 4.0 would be a 4.5. But, again, I could be wrong - I don't really know. I think it's very difficult - but not impossible - to teach footwork. There's a guy in my neighborhood who plays tennis a couple of times a year, has no tennis training, and split steps like he's been doing it his whole life. Then there are other folks who have been playing tennis forever and they don't/can't do it at all. So, I just don't know.
Just wanted to hear what you think anyway. We’re not a committee writing tennis rules. :p
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
Personally, I don't really know. I *think* it's important because movement, generally, is so important. Maybe with better footwork that 4.0 would be a 4.5. But, again, I could be wrong - I don't really know. I think it's very difficult - but not impossible - to teach footwork. There's a guy in my neighborhood who plays tennis a couple of times a year, has no tennis training, and split steps like he's been doing it his whole life. Then there are other folks who have been playing tennis forever and they don't/can't do it at all. So, I just don't know.
Sensible input. No surprise to me cuz its the same as my observation! Even down to the level. I mean, like you, I start to see real form footwork at 4.5.

Maybe 4.0 is such a wide range that it's just all over the place, including very mediocre, negligible footwork/movements.


I'd take your input, someone who actually plays matches, over ppl who don't.




Yep, very difficult to learn worthwhile footwork movements but then you and i probably have a higher, stricter standard. :)
 
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