Do you do split step?

user92626

Legend
oh some people with high standard are lazy, blame everything on genetics and talent. we 've heard it all.
Who blames what? You're not making any sense.

I, chic, tonylg and now navigator, all have said or implied that good (the kind that we consider) SS and footwork is likely trained from much younger years, very difficult to start in college years, either pick up in no time or not even after many many years.

Can you read? :)


All of us have regularly play matches seriously I believe. These guys are not on here typing all the time or posting homemade videos. :)
 
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user92626

Legend
You know, it's funny, I told myself to ignore you guys (ptumanminh and curious) as there's really no point in talking intelligence to someone who's incapable of understanding, but somehow with straightforward, plain as daylight input from people like Navigator...it's hard to resist.

Listen, ptuanmind and curious. I'll be frank. YOUR idea and implementation of SS, footwork and whatnot, and of general tennis are very mediocre if not totally off. It's not good for consideration. That's why it's not credible, not convincing. Reach a higher level, or gain a good number of years of match experience then I might give you an ear. :)
 

Curious

Legend
I
You know, it's funny, I told myself to ignore you guys (ptumanminh and curious) as there's really no point in talking intelligence to someone who's incapable of understanding, but somehow with straightforward, plain as daylight input from people like Navigator...it's hard to resist.

Listen, ptuanmind and curious. I'll be frank. YOUR idea and implementation of SS, footwork and whatnot, and of general tennis are very mediocre if not totally off. It's not good for consideration. That's why it's not credible, not convincing. Reach a higher level, or gain a good number of years of match experience then I might give you an ear. :)
I think you will be the only person in the world to believe that Navigator agrees with you!
 

Curious

Legend
By the way what’s so embarrassing about your tennis that it’s impossible to post a video of you hitting a tennis ball??!
 

user92626

Legend
I think you will be the only person in the world to believe that Navigator agrees with you!
By the way what’s so embarrassing about your tennis that it’s impossible to post a video of you hitting a tennis ball??!
Projecting much? You're the only one who worries about getting agreements.

I quoted Navigator cuz I believe he has real world, real match experience, and his post is as plain as daylight.

Posting video? Just not my interest. You can say I don't find it worth it. That's your thing though most of the time I don't know what for. LOL.
 

ptuanminh

Hall of Fame
Who blames what? You're not making any sense.

I, chic, tonylg and now navigator, all have said or implied that good (the kind that we consider) SS and footwork is likely trained from much younger years, very difficult to start in college years, either pick up in no time or not even after many many years.

Can you read? :)


All of us have regularly play matches seriously I believe. These guys are not on here typing all the time or posting homemade videos. :)
Whats your USTA record????
 

navigator

Hall of Fame
Here's a video of me hitting around 5 months ago. Maybe you tell me if i did any SS in there.
You didn't ask me and I don't really know the background of the intra-debates here among the various posters (nor your own footwork history), but your footwork looks perfectly reasonable here - it looks "proper" to me (but I'm not an expert). You're moving your feet, you're in an athletic position when your opponent is hitting the ball, there's a little hop to help you accelerate toward the ball - the timing looks just fine. It looks perfectly natural to me. I suspect... that if it was learned, it was a matter of someone saying, "hey, keep your feet moving and when your opponent is about to hit the ball get in an athletic position," and the rest just came with additional playing. I never heard the term split-step when I was a kid, nor really knew what "footwork" was. I was just told to keep my feet moving and the rest just kind of fell into place. I suspect that's how it works for most folks... but I don't really know.
 

Curious

Legend
You didn't ask me and I don't really know the background of the intra-debates here among the various posters (nor your own footwork history), but your footwork looks perfectly reasonable here - it looks "proper" to me (but I'm not an expert). You're moving your feet, you're in an athletic position when your opponent is hitting the ball, there's a little hop to help you accelerate toward the ball - the timing looks just fine. It looks perfectly natural to me. I suspect... that if it was learned, it was a matter of someone saying, "hey, keep your feet moving and when your opponent is about to hit the ball get in an athletic position," and the rest just came with additional playing. I never heard the term split-step when I was a kid, nor really knew what "footwork" was. I was just told to keep my feet moving and the rest just kind of fell into place. I suspect that's how it works for most folks... but I don't really know.
I really find this very interesting. I mean learning the split step naturally without even knowing the term. This was obviously not the case for me as an adult learner. I worked really hard and long to be able to do it properly and regularly. I see some guys in our club , as you mentioned, doing it perfectly and without even knowing they do it. When I asked one of them (like a 4.5-5.0 guy). He said he wasn’t aware of it. He’s a friend of mine now and I know he means it. Interestingly enough he doesn’t also know anything about racket lag, grip types, pronation, ESR, ISR any of those stuff!
 

acintya

Legend
i try to but if im not in the mood i only split step when i think that the opponent will shoot the ball on my backhand side - this is only for better timing. i dont need it on the forehand side as i think i got pretty good feel even if im cemented to the court:)
 
I see some guys in our club , as you mentioned, doing it perfectly and without even knowing they do it. When I asked one of them (like a 4.5-5.0 guy). He said he wasn’t aware of it. He’s a friend of mine now and I know he means it. Interestingly enough he doesn’t also know anything about racket lag, grip types, pronation, ESR, ISR any of those stuff!
Neither did I growing up. Further, my close friend, a wildly successful D1 coach, wasn’t sure what I meant when I asked him about ISR/ESR.

Edit: the younger the student the more they learn NON-verbally


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Curious

Legend
Neither did I growing up. Further, my close friend, a wildly successful D1 coach, wasn’t sure what I meant when I asked him about ISR/ESR.


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What’s your opinion about whether it should be tried to learn/ teach at lower levels like 3.0-3.5 or is it not worth it? Does it come naturally as you get better?
 
What’s your opinion about whether it should be tried to learn/ teach at lower levels like 3.0-3.5 or is it not worth it? Does it come naturally as you get better?
I would think it depends heavily on the student's goals: if they're happy where they are and just want incremental improvement, I can think of other, easier ways to achieve that. If they're playing the long game and are willing to sacrifice and put in the needed work, I'd certainly try to teach it.

I doubt it comes naturally; if it did, they already would be doing it. The longer they play without doing it, the more inertia builds up.
 

Curious

Legend
I doubt it comes naturally; if it did, they already would be doing it. The longer they play without doing it, the more inertia builds up.
What I’m interested to know is whether it can be learned intuitively without being taught at all.
What I mean is have folks like navigator and bhbh been taught somehow along the way without the term split step being used but still described or demonstrated how it’s done?
 

user92626

Legend
I would think it depends heavily on the student's goals: if they're happy where they are and just want incremental improvement, I can think of other, easier ways to achieve that. If they're playing the long game and are willing to sacrifice and put in the needed work, I'd certainly try to teach it.

I doubt it comes naturally; if it did, they already would be doing it. The longer they play without doing it, the more inertia builds up.
Who are your students? Minors, young 20s, early 30s and/or any typical adult recreational players?

As far as rec players from the age early 30s or above, it seems like most can't see past the strokes as the only area for improvement. Meaning, they would forever work on the FH, BH, the serve, volley. These things are never enough for them, and inevitably they lag the footwork skill.

Isn't it funny that a few manage to work on movements and fitness -- and naturally have less time for the strokes -- and they win games by running down the ball over and over, but only to get called pushers or some other negative terms. So, there's pressure to stay on track with the strokes. Not so much with movements. LOL.
 
What I’m interested to know is whether it can be learned intuitively without being taught at all.
What I mean is have folks like navigator and bhbh been taught somehow along the way without the term split step being used but still described or demonstrated how it’s done?
It depends on how intuitive they are!!

Very observant people will see that better players are doing things that they are not and vice versa [they are doing things that better players are not] and then will try to address those deficiencies.

But most people are not that observant.

And adults are less intuitive due to years of learning by rote rather than by feel.
 
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tonylg

Professional
I, chic, tonylg and now navigator, all have said or implied that good (the kind that we consider) SS and footwork is likely trained from much younger years, very difficult to start in college years, either pick up in no time or not even after many many years.
If you inferred that from my comments, you're wrong .. but it was certainly not my intent.

Yes, I was taught to split step as a kid.

No, I don't believe it's as hard for an adult to learn as you're making it out to be. I think you don't want to learn to do it (which is fine) and making up excuses. It's a simple action, but needs to be practiced over and over so that it is done without thinking.

It's not strokes or split step, they go together. That movement initiates what you will do next, be it forehard, backhand, volley, run, etc. Everything but your serve.
 
Who are your students? Minors, young 20s, early 30s and/or any typical adult recreational players?
I'm not a coach. I observe. And since I'm an adult, most of my observations are of adults.

As far as rec players from the age early 30s or above, it seems like most can't see past the strokes as the only area for improvement. Meaning, they would forever work on the FH, BH, the serve, volley. These things are never enough for them, and inevitably they lag the footwork skill.

Isn't it funny that a few manage to work on movements and fitness -- and naturally have less time for the strokes -- and they win games by running down the ball over and over, but only to get called pushers or some other negative terms. So, there's pressure to stay on track with the strokes. Not so much with movements. LOL.
Fitness is not sexy; fitness doesn't make highlight reels; fitness doesn't garner attention [count how many winning highlight reels Ferrer is in vs Paire].

I think what you wrote can be generalized to many things beyond the split step. Most people are satisfied with their current level or, if they're not, aren't willing/able to put in the work to improve. That eliminates the vast majority.
 

user92626

Legend
He probably started tennis as a kid. It is easy to engrain the SS habit as a junior.
It is a different story for the average adult first learning tennis at age 35+.
Review TimeToPlaySets posts. He was fit and had run marathons. Had a full-time coach and was drilling every day and he still had a HELL of a time with split step. For over a year he couldn't do it and actually abandoned split step when hitting with 3.5.

His split step only started peeking thru when he had to hit with 4.0 players and had trouble keeping up without employing split step.
Guilty .. split stepping was ingrained into me almost 50 years ago. And that's possibly the difference.

...
@tonylg

Then you may need to go back to Communication 101.

I only read what you wrote. It's direct. Not inferred. Quoted above.

You didn't learn footwork, ss in adulthood. You don't know the adult's experience to speak of.
 

Chadalina

Legend
@tonylg

Then you may need to go back to Communication 101.

I only read what you wrote. It's direct. Not inferred. Quoted above.

You didn't learn footwork, ss in adulthood. You don't know the adult's experience to speak of.
Does someone ever feed you balls? They can mix it up, hit a few right at you after moving side to side
 

tonylg

Professional
Nice (dishonest) edit.
Guilty .. split stepping was ingrained into me almost 50 years ago. And that's possibly the difference. As a kid, I didn't know why it was important, I was told to do it and either drilled with a ball and made to do court sprints if I didn't. Instead, you guys are watching videos and analysing if it's level appropriate or not.

JUST DO IT.

It may start off feeling weird and you may even look stupid, but after 10,000 times, it will be automatic and it will help your tennis no end.

Can't comment in ttps, I blocked him not long after joining.
There's my full post for all to see.

It's primarily your attitude that is making it difficult.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk
 

Chadalina

Legend
You’re mean! You want him to get injured?!
Application is best way to practice. Have your feeder mix them up. Intentionally trying to cross up your footwork, hitting behind, short then deep, etc. Real stuff, not running around cones being hand fed left and right

Feeds are nice because you can control tempo and how far they have to move.
 
Application is best way to practice. Have your feeder mix them up. Intentionally trying to cross up your footwork, hitting behind, short then deep, etc. Real stuff, not running around cones being hand fed left and right
So what they're doing in this video is not "real stuff" because it involves cones and hand feeds?

Of course it's "real stuff". It's just not the "only stuff" as this is just the tip of the iceberg, of course.

 

Chadalina

Legend
So what they're doing in this video is not "real stuff" because it involves cones and hand feeds?

Of course it's "real stuff". It's just not the "only stuff" as this is just the tip of the iceberg, of course.

Its great to practice balls moving directly left at 10 mph.

These guys are creative and the obstical coarse must be fun for kids.
 

user92626

Legend
Nice (dishonest) edit.There's my full post for all to see.

It's primarily your attitude that is making it difficult.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk
You're weird, if not to say talking stupidly.


I don't need you or anyone to tell ME how to learn SS. That's not the topic here, thus that part of your post is irrelevant. The topic is if there are adult learners, 4.0s and below, finding SS difficult.
Don't join the debate if you can't grasp the topic. You're only making things unnecessarily stupid by your confused mind. You're not adding any value.
 

user92626

Legend
Does someone ever feed you balls? They can mix it up, hit a few right at you after moving side to side
I can hit much better than just hand fed balls. I've been competing in matches for years, not posting videos on TT. I certainly don't need anyone in this place to help me with SS, FH or whatever, but thanks for your unsolicited advises. :)

I think you're confused if you think I speak of only my own tennis experience. I've been speaking of what I observed of the larger scene if you can't get that from all my posts.
 

Chadalina

Legend
I can hit much better than just hand fed balls. I've been competing in matches for years, not posting videos on TT. I certainly don't need anyone in this place to help me with SS, FH or whatever, but thanks for your unsolicited advises. :)

I think you're confused if you think I speak of only my own tennis experience. I've been speaking of what I observed of the larger scene if you can't get that from all my posts.
You cant transfer your knowledge to someone else? Put yourself in the others positions then, if you know how to do it, how would you teach it?

Thread is long, may have missed. You seem concrete on guys who are 41.5698 yrs old currently playing at a 3.83 ntrp lvl who current do not split step everytime, then give a general description and expect results? :)
 

user92626

Legend
You cant transfer your knowledge to someone else? Put yourself in the others positions then, if you know how to do it, how would you teach it?

Thread is long, may have missed. You seem concrete on guys who are 41.5698 yrs old currently playing at a 3.83 ntrp lvl who current do not split step everytime, then give a general description and expect results? :)

On the topic of transferring knowledge or helping someone else, I think we can only do that with friends and they have to be open enough and capable of absorption. By the time you get thru all those IFs you'll be lucky to find one person.

Believe me I want those around me to play better, much better. Lately it seems like I'm bribing them by giving them excellent odds to beat me and I paid for lunches :( But yeah I do like challenges and that's where my cost is.
 

Bender

G.O.A.T.
If you inferred that from my comments, you're wrong .. but it was certainly not my intent.

Yes, I was taught to split step as a kid.

No, I don't believe it's as hard for an adult to learn as you're making it out to be. I think you don't want to learn to do it (which is fine) and making up excuses. It's a simple action, but needs to be practiced over and over so that it is done without thinking.

It's not strokes or split step, they go together. That movement initiates what you will do next, be it forehard, backhand, volley, run, etc. Everything but your serve.
I picked up the split step when I took up tennis properly at the age of 23.

Shadow swings followed by a split step is how I practised so it became part of the shot.

The difficult part was to instinctively time the split step following irregular shots, where the opponent makes contact earlier or later than normal.
 

Chadalina

Legend
On the topic of transferring knowledge or helping someone else, I think we can only do that with friends and they have to be open enough and capable of absorption. By the time you get thru all those IFs you'll be lucky to find one person.

Believe me I want those around me to play better, much better. Lately it seems like I'm bribing them by giving them excellent odds to beat me and I paid for lunches :( But yeah I do like challenges and that's where my cost is.
People here arent so bad, just came off confrontational. Most ppl here wanna help each other. There is no such thing as a bad tip if you understand what you are doing because you can see the flaw in it and learn from it.

If your ever in orlando, im hungry :p I know your fighting with alot here, hope i didnt come off wrong, im peace with everyone (except roger moron) in this section :)
 
The topic is if there are adult learners, 4.0s and below, finding SS difficult.
That's not how I interpreted what you wrote: my interpretation is that you had already concluded that the split step was too difficult to learn and your evidence was all of the people who didn't do it. You seemingly weren't looking for input; you were looking for confirmation.

I certainly don't need anyone in this place to help me with SS, FH or whatever
You must be an awesome player then; at least UTR 12 [since Matt is 10.xx and if you can't learn anything from him you must be at least 1 level higher if not more].

C'mon: that's not really what you meant, is it?
 

user92626

Legend
People here arent so bad, just came off confrontational. Most ppl here wanna help each other. There is no such thing as a bad tip if you understand what you are doing because you can see the flaw in it and learn from it.

If your ever in orlando, im hungry :p I know your fighting with alot here, hope i didnt come off wrong, im peace with everyone (except roger moron) in this section :)
By "alot" you mean ...like...5 and I'm being very generous. hehe... I don't think 5 is anywhere representational of this fun, helpful place. No worries.


Sure, most people aren't bad. If I need technical helps, I'll shout out. You're good. If you like to dish out tips whether I ask for or not, go right ahead like many do. No harm no foul. Even if I don't need it, someone else might. That seems like the fashion around here. :)
 
He figures prominently on Fed's best tweener videos.
Unfortunately, that's what he's known for [it was a pretty impressive tweener].

But his training videos are intense and I've watched them enough that they are what I think of now when I hear the name "Dabul".
 

Curious

Legend
The difficult part was to instinctively time the split step following irregular shots, where the opponent makes contact earlier or later than normal.
That’s why ‘when your opponent hits the ball’ is a bad checkpoint. Hop somewhere around the forward swing of the opponent is the best reference for timing. Never fails. Yeah make sure you’re watching the opponent’s racket of course!;)
 

ptuanminh

Hall of Fame
I really find this very interesting. I mean learning the split step naturally without even knowing the term. This was obviously not the case for me as an adult learner. I worked really hard and long to be able to do it properly and regularly. I see some guys in our club , as you mentioned, doing it perfectly and without even knowing they do it. When I asked one of them (like a 4.5-5.0 guy). He said he wasn’t aware of it. He’s a friend of mine now and I know he means it. Interestingly enough he doesn’t also know anything about racket lag, grip types, pronation, ESR, ISR any of those stuff!
Footwork can be learn. I am pretty sure about it. My first 2 years of playing tennis, i did not know how to SS, or how to move around. I watched many youtube videos about footwork and a lot of pro matches. It can be learn.
 

user92626

Legend
You must be an awesome player then; at least UTR 12 [since Matt is 10.xx and if you can't learn anything from him you must be at least 1 level higher if not more].

C'mon: that's not really what you meant, is it?
You have to expand your perspective a bit here. Even if I run into many much better players, what good does it do for me if I don't have the time, the energy, the incentive to learn all the advance stuff?

Happiness is going with the flow. Being somewhere between 3.5 and 4.0 seems like the sweetest spot. It's more effortless for me to keep up that level though I need to hit the gym for better workout.
 

Chadalina

Legend
He figures prominently on Fed's best tweener videos.
Nah he is great, players play and learn different ways. My college roomate was from india, said they just feed the ball as hard as they can to him. Took paes to 8-6 in practice set though.

I never liked hand feeds because they dont simulate the speed or the speed of the bounce. I guess its good for practice to move your feet but i dont see how that applies to real tennis, the ball moves so much faster.

Footwork has timing just like our groundstrokes. Why the change up (slice) can mess with people. They split upon impact, land and sit there for a half sec, defying why the did it in the first place. Great footwork is very correlated to great anticipation.
 

ptuanminh

Hall of Fame
You have to expand your perspective a bit here. Even if I run into many much better players, what good does it do for me if I don't have the time, the energy, the incentive to learn all the advance stuff?

Happiness is going with the flow. Being somewhere between 3.5 and 4.0 seems like the sweetest spot. It's more effortless for me to keep up that level though I need to hit the gym for better workout.
Thought you were a very high standard person????
 
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